King Knut

On 12/29/2019 at 2:10 PM, OccamsRazor said:

 

Well some of his comments are the obvious type comments but many players make those I just think he is a better lead by example type and that is what I want the talking stuff not so much worried about of of them give lip service.

 

I want the Flyers Captain to be a heart and sould type go out there and show type of guy.

 

He is the closest they have to that type.

 

The other in my mind is TK but I feel he is ready for that.

 

Ivan wouldn't be bad either but I want a vet type too.

 

And those two are still kids.

 

So who is your out the box guy then?

Yeah, I agree with the sentiment on G's Silence and Coot's textbook answers, but I really don't think it matters who says what to the press and the conversations that do matter don't make it to us.

That's not meant as a defense of any player or a contradiction to any assessment here.  Rather just to say we really don't know.  There's more to being a captain than getting the guys going. 

I know that's our perception of the role because of... I'm actually not sure why.  But There's no rule in any locker room that says a guy without a C on his uniform can't speak up and encourage or criticize his fellow guys.  

For me this goes back to the Pronger / Richards thing.  Pronger had a bee in his bonnet that he wasn't the captain.  That's fine.  He's kind of a legendary figure in this so I don't actually begrudge him that.  

But if he didn't yap at his team mates or give speeches in the locker room that might have encouraged his team mates or if he didn't give advice or tips to his team mates that might have helped them win that G.D. cup, then there's no excuse for that and certainly "well, Richie was the captain!" isn't one of them.  Sorry.  Nope.  Uh uh. 

Way back when, I was highly against giving G the Captaincy.  But not because he wasn't vocal.  It was because I wanted him to focus on scoring as many points as possible.  Because that was his skill set and the Flyers really never encourage that skill set.  

Of course you want him to "play the right way" and a "200 ft. Game" and all of that, but at the end of the day, I didn't want Giroux to have to worry about all the B.S. minutia that a captain has to worry about (It's dumb, but there is an actual job he has to do during games that has nothing to do with calling out his team mates).  And I didn't want him to have the pressure of hearing about how he wasn't being vocal enough or a good enough leader in the press.  

After Pronger went down, to me it made the most sense to give it to Briere or Timmonen.  I don't know why that didn't happen.  Even if they knew they wanted to buy out Briere once the compliance buyouts were offered, who cares?  They didn't bring back Smith and he was an excellent captain for this team.  So if not them, then I'd have said resign and give it to Jagr even though he got tired in the playoffs because he was old or whatever. But Homer in his infinite wisdom didn't think he was worth two years at his age (once again something Homer was proven irrevocably wrong on).

Even Talbot or Knuble would have been better choices for the role as far as I was concerned and when they brought back Gagne, then they should have given it to him.  

But that's all a tangent.  My point is if Steady Eddie or Hazy have stuff to say, then there is NOTHING holding them back and I am willing to bet two whole coke-a-colas after da game that they say everything they think they should during and after and before the games.  

I think it’s mostly confidence and that’s mostly coaching with a dash of Hart letting them know they won’t get destroyed every time they make a mistake. 

Niskanen has been very important confidence wise as well. 

Hayes has been a great addition, but the absence of Patrick sort of balances that out.

I had to take a little while off from the board because this Lindblom thing has me just heartbroken. 

BUT, in the week or two I’ve been gone, JVR now leads the team in goals after the Sens game.  

Thats... unforeseen, even by me who had been defending him to much.  

5 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

...where they don't wear helmets.

Though intentional Helmet to helmet contact is illegal in the NFL and would qualify as illegal in the NHL as well.

7 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Duerson did. Seau didnt. It was also during the height of a multimillion dollar legal suit.

 

You are also using football as a comaprison to hockey. Head ci tact is football is constant, hence the helmet. Not the same i. Hockey

And Belak and  Rypien were "just depressed" and Boogard was a fighter.

You're equivocating and you know it.

Pronger and Primeau couldn't play with their kids years later their symptoms were so bad... so because they didn't shoot themselves that makes it okay?  

3 minutes ago, CoachX said:

You have no way of knowing this. Neitther does anyone else. Its pure careless speculation to try to prove a thoery

They both wrote their families explaining it.

It was reported on extensively.  

5 minutes ago, Poulin20 said:

 

That is my biggest problem with the hit. He comes up high with 2 hands.  What happened to the old shoulder to the chest check?

Bingo.  

Just now, Podein25 said:

 

Pusssy

Dave Duerson and Junior Seau shot themselves IN THE CHEST specifically because while they couldn't handle the way their CTE made them feel anymore and they decided they needed to end their lives because of it.  BUT they also knew that shooting themselves in the head would destroy the evidence that researchers might be able to use to help other athletes and soldiers with similar problems.

Let me repeat:

THEIR POST-CONCUSSION PROBLEMS WERE SO BAD THEY DECIDED TO SHOOT THEMSELVES, BUT THEY CHOSE THE SLOWER MORE PAINFUL WAY TO SHOOT THEMSELVES IN THE HOPE IT MIGHT HELP OTHER PEOPLE WITH CONCUSSION RELATED PROBLEMS.

But you know... Borowiecki isn't a ***** and I am.

I'm really okay with softer hits if it ends up preventing **** like that.

11 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

Objective or not:

1) It's late.  Even in real time.  Not absurdly so, but late

2) He hits right into the chin first.  Principle point of contact, then the body.

 

Look, I like what has been a traditional open ice hit.  I'm not even sure Borowiecki had any time to change course--which argues against the "late" claim, but I'm really not sure he did.

 

What I *am* saying, though, is that I've seen less or similar get a fine or suspension.  At the very least, a droning and confusing video from the league as to why it isn't.    The league simply confuses me with these things.

Borowiecki at least had time to not drill him.  And that's really what this is about.  Do you take the opportunity to do serious career and quality of life harm to a guy (talk to Pronger, Primeau and Lindros about how their post concussion lives have been, let alone what we know about CTE related illnesses and suicides) or do you respect him enough not to do that to him.

That's what we're talking about.    I'm okay with a league that has softer hits that don't do this to a player.  I prefer it greatly.

On 12/9/2019 at 1:25 PM, Podein25 said:

It's not clear to me that the hit is illegal or even bad. The worst part of the entire play is the suicide pass by Braun. A veteran like that has to be the one that shows the better judgement there and not try that. Or the pass has to be very hard, which is a way of telling TK that there is a big bastard closing on him fast. 

 

Still need to see the slow mo replay

On 12/9/2019 at 12:42 PM, Poulin20 said:

No hearing for the bum who hit him up high?

His name isn't Gudas and he doesn't wear an orange Jersey... so no.

I've been searching for a slo mo replay of the hit for days.  Anyone have one?

4 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

Sorry to disagree Howie, but  at no point in that game did I think,  'Wow the Coyotes are really buzzing', they weren't "hungrier', unless you're talkng about Phil Kessel thinking about burritos.

That game was won by Darcy Keumper, win by the goalie, die by the goalie- we've had our share of nights where Moose or Hartsy were our best players too. 

 

As a general note, I don't think I would enjoy watching my team play the Coyotes 4 times a year, they interfere, they grab jerseys, hold sticks, drop theirs the moment you look at their hands and god did they dive...good grief I thought Ekmann-Lassron was going to the hospital the way he sold the cross check from Hayes- OEL showed real courage just skating the the bench after that vicious play 

They play a ****** brand of hockey, like the 90's Devils with a better color scheme. 

 

 

They're not going to win or even get points in all their games and I'm okay with that.  

They had one break down on a penalty kill.  It was uncharacteristic of the PK so far this year and they're not NEVER going to get scored on.

Keumper had an insane game.

They had a chance at tying it until Hayes took a bad penalty at the end of the game to kill their push.

Long story short, when they do have to lose a game in regulation, I'm content if it's a game like this.  

I agree with all you day above with the following caveats:

-The Flyers Power Play has GOT to get better.  They're not at the bottom of the league in Expected Goals.  

-(related) Their shooting % has to pick up if they're going to be "good".  

    Frost had a tough one and missed some open nets and that sucks for him, but he's a rookie so we don't come down too hard... BUT he wasn't the only one.  These guys have got to start finding the target.  

-I'm hoping having a coach like AV will help the Flyers if they ever have to play a 7 game series against a team that does the crap you're pointing out about the Yotes.  A coach really really has to massage the refs over the course of a game and a series and AV's the kind of coach that can do that.  Stevens couldn't do it, Berube was actually not bad (he's had a few conversations with refs over his career), Hakstol was god awful.  Laviolette was hit or miss as far as I'm concerned and he's the closest analog they have to AV as far as coaching pedigree goes, so I'm hoping he's a little more advanced at the negotiating skills.

4 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

 

They play a ****** brand of hockey, like the 90's Devils with a better color scheme. 

 

This cracked me up.  God I hated those Devils.  Their game plan was literally to grab onto everyone they could until they could spring Elias.  Brodeur was a good goalie, but good lord, what they got away with in front of him was atrocious and made him look more brilliant.

8 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Vader was always bragging about his and Forbsys escapades. One time he was talking about watching the game on his new 42' plasma. He wasn't the brightest guy and didn't realize this " is inches and this' is feet. 

 

 So I mocked him about it every chance I got.

He wasn't in a band by any chance was he?

2 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 We won't know...but Hextall loves his 200 foot players...and JVR is a 20 foot player.

 

 Kind of the anti-Vader plasma. (only old school Philly.comers will get that)

I was on the old Philly.com board, I remember Vader, but I still have no memory of plasma though.

On 12/4/2019 at 12:38 PM, Howie58 said:

Greetings:

 

We are a fairly heavy favorite, despite similar play over the last 10 games:

 

https://www.oddsshark.com/nhl/arizona-philadelphia-odds-december-5-2019-1161386

 

Historically, we've played well against this franchise, particularly at home.  They are 2nd in the Pacific--not to be taken lightly.

 

http://mcubed.net/nhl/phi/ari.shtml

 

 

 

 

Tocchet's got this team playing well.  This is a challenge game.  

7 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Exactly! 

 

JVR might be doing a good job in his current role, but that role can be filled just as well by a player who doesn't command the price

You would think so and so would I, but that has not yet been the case from within the organization this year.  They've tried.  

Like I say, this is why I'd love to get him cooking on the PP at least the way he used to.  Then we're getting even more than we bargained for.

I can't help but wonder how much Hextall was pressured into signing him to begin with.  It just doesn't mesh with everything else he seemed to be pushing for.  Not when waiting a year could have netted you Stone or Panarin.  Guess we'll never know.

34 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

I see where you are coming from here and it clears things up for me.

 

That said, I'd rather have the guy potting the 20 or so PPG than a guy who's good along the boards if we're talking about a $7M cap hit... Not so much for rightnow, but for the "signing the younger players" in upcoming years as you references whether earlier or in another thread.

Absolutely.  I'd love to get him going on the PP now, finish strong, see how far we can get with him and make him much more appealing on the trading block in the off season.  

33 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

The situation you outline is not the one in which he played.

 

19 of his 27 last year were on the power play. that means he "gave up" 18 at even strength to come in at -10.

 

Does 27 goals for outweigh 18 goals against? If you're scoring every third game and "giving up" a goal against at even strength every 4, that seems like a positive outcome from where I sit.

The situation I outlined was entirely hypothetical as far as the numbers go and they were simplified to exclude PPG because he isn't scoring any.  I was essentially saying that if you take away his PPG, I'd rather gave a net positive even strength guy and that we're not getting the same -10 even strength guy we got last year, we're getting a much much better player.    

But since you brought them up, Essentially what I'm saying is that if JVR was scoring PPG at the pace he was last year, he'd have 13 goals by now for a net positive of like 24 or something and we'd be having an entirely different conversation.    

Long and short AV and company are doing a bang up job, but I sincerely hope fixing the PP is in order soon.  

32 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

I'm more in you camp on this one.  He doesn't bother me 5v5 the way Jake does.

 

I mean they're both career minus players having plus seasons so far and their play driving numbers are also up from last year (though historically they both tend to have positives there) I think it seems to be working... though it would be nice if it looked like something we could trust more while they're out there.  

32 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

I mean, AV was calling him out, too.   I don't know that anything has appreciably changed with JVR since then, but we're winning so...

Like I said, 3 points in 4 games since being demoted... it's something.  it's not like, "HEY! That's really SOMETHING!" because of the nature of them, but still... it is something.  

14 hours ago, CoachX said:

I will agree on the point that you dont have a better option, so you have to play him somewhere. But thats not the discussion. The discussion is centered on your observations that, while in a demoted role, he is performing well, and that he would perform better given more minutes

 

The fact still remains, if he was playing like he did in Toronto we would not be having this discussion, and other players would find themselves on the 3rd or 4th line.

 

Props to you for sticking up for the guy, but I think hes a total bust in Philly. I dont think he can metally perform as a member of this franchise. Cut ties and move him. It would be best for both him and the team

I'm not sure that's what I have been thinking. So if it's what I said, I'll apologize.

My thoughts are that JVR is playing well but just not scoring.  The same was true of Hayes and Voracek.  

As it is, Hayes only has two more points than JVR and 8 more goals have been scored against him at even strength than JVR... but we're talking about JVR as the odd man out here for some reason anyway.

At the heart of it, I'm talking about winning hockey games and you guys are talking about scoring goals and earning $7million.

My focus is on winning games.  It would be nice if guys were "earning" their big contracts while they win them, I would prefer to see that as opposed to not seeing it.

And I am extremely concerned about how Fletcher is going to sign the guys he's going to need to resign over the next three years, so losing JVR's contract would be a blessing as far as that is concerned.

But I look around and everyone's just bytching about how JVR isn't scoring (and you're right, he's not), but no one seems to have noticed that he's completely changed his game and what he IS doing well is doing more to help the team win than he would be if he was playing like he did last year or in Toronto.

When he left for Toronto he was a career +13 player.  That's right.  Homer traded a guy who was +15 with 21 goals for Luke Schenn... but somehow we all seem to think it was because he was a lazy stiff.  I've got news for us.  It doesn't matter what we "see" watching the games.  If you finish a season at +15 and with 20 goals, you are NOT a lazy stiff, you are an incredibly valuable piece.

Anyway, He was then a -47 for all his time and his 106 even strength goals in TO.  And he was a -10 last year under Hakstol. That's awful.  I will take a guy who scores 15 EVG and ends a year as a plus player any day over a guy who scores 40 EVG and ends the year as a minus player. And I will do so because I prefer winning hockey games.  

This year however, he's already +5 so far. He was never better than +3 for a full season since he left Philly the first time despite scoring 106 EVGs.

You want him to score goals, I want him to win hockey games.  He doesn't kill penalties, so if he's a +5 player, he's doing his part to win hockey games and I can't really complain about him, I can just wish he was doing a bit more.

I happen to think based on his history and the history of Giroux, Voracek and Ghost, that the PP should be doing better all around and that it CAN be doing better all around.  In my view if he was putting up better power play numbers, and playing at even strength EXACTLY as he is, he'd be solid gold for this team right now.

It seems however that a lot of folks on this thread that I read and respect the opinions of, would be happier if he was scoring 35 goals and giving up 45 and that just doesn't make sense to me.  

14 hours ago, CoachX said:

And if a frog had wings his ass wouldnt hit the ground when he hopped

This would be more appropriate if the Frog had always had wings to begin with.  

3 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I keep seeing rumors of the Rags wanting to move Chris Kreider....i wonder if they would do a swap of JVR for Kreider???

He's an impending UFA and they will want to be moving him for picks.

They are not likely to want JVR's contract as they will probably be shooting to sign some big UFAs this summer (Hall, Hoffman maybe).

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

Does he have good hands? Yes. Can he score? Yes. Does he put forth a good effort game in and game out? F*** no!

We may not see what we think of as a good effort, but the fact is, the other team isn’t getting as many shots and they’re not scoring as many goals when he’s on the ice.  That’s literally how you win hockey games.  

He’s a top 6 fwd on this team in that regard.  

That may not sit sit well with us because we expect goals for dollars (again, see my notes on the PP overall) but if you want to win hockey games, this is what you want to see.  

Right now if they traded him for a pick or someone with worse underlying numbers (which is most of the league) you’d be hurting the team. 

He’s completely revamped his approach to the even strength game and his numbers are reflecting that.  Fix the PP and we’ll really be onto something for nothing JVR and the whole damn team.  

Not earning $7million and being a lazy stiff P.O.S. Are two very different things.  

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

28 games, 6 goals, 6 assists and ONE, I REPEAT ONE,  power play goal

 

What a bargain at 7m. And we were all bitchin about Hayes' contract 

this is essentially what i’m Saying though! If the PP was working better he might have 5 pp goals and a few assists by  now for 18-20 points overall  and no one would be complaining. 

Its not. So we are.  

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

If he's not lacking, why did the coach demote him?

 

And, with your points to defend his game, do you think hes delivering a performance worthy of 7m per year?

Ok, so you’re AV a few weeks ago. You’re trying to get your 3rd line full of not scoring 7 million plus guys to start scoring (though they’re not getting scored on either, so there’s that) so you want to break them up again. 

You’re already short 2 centers because Laughton and Patrick are out. So you likely don’t want to move Hayes down the roster.

You’re not breaking up the Frosty-G-TK line are you?  No. You are not. 

You’re more likely to move Farabee off Coots’ wing than Lindblom because Coots and Lindy have done well all year. 

So  if you’re considering moving either Jake or JVR to the 4th line whose main job is to not get scored on while the other guys catch their breath... even though both Jake and JVR are doing a decent job of not getting scored on... are you really gonna our Voracek on the 4th line?  

In a way, Its actually a somewhat of a show of confidence in JVR playing “the right way” that he chose to put him on the 4th at all.  

And no.  Of course not.  

I do NOT think he's delivering a $7million dollar performance. That said, there's no one to replace him right now.  Offensively or defensively and if they trade him, I won’t cry a drop.  They need his cap space desperately this off season anyway. 

That said, every other player at their disposal on the bench and in the minors has given up way more offense than JVR, so while he may not be doing what we’d like to win more games, the evidence is such that NOT playing him could end up costing them more games.  It sounds crazy if you think he’s a lazy stiff, but Ruby, Misha, Andreoff, Stewart, Bunnyman, Twarynski, Pitlick and even Laughton, Raffl and Hayes all give up more of their own ice overall and more even strength goals than JVR.

It’s true.  I’m not joking. 

Right now, he’s still your best option to win games.  Or at least to keep from losing them.  

And right. Now he has 3 points in 4 games... from the 4th line.  

Lets see see where this goes and if they can manage to get the PP cranking overall. 

If he had 4 or 5 more pp goals like he probably should and 20 points or so by now, i’d be thrilled with him, $7 million or not. 

At the end end of the day,  not playing JVR 

Hurts this team and playing him, while being guilty of not being as productive as we hoped, is still the best option. 

Of if you can trade him for a guy who has similar underlying numbers and costs less, i’d Be thrilled.  Until then, I know the guy can score 30 goals.  Let’s spend our time figuring out how to get him back on that track because complaining about the rest of his game at the moment is out of touch with reality.  

3 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

 

All he is is big. With a big mole on his face. I just wanna punch him.

 

Still, you're putting up a spirited, if not terribly convincing, argument for his existence. So good on you.

 

That mole just won't go away will it?  I'd hoped those years in Toronto might have frozen it off.