fanaticV3.0

Again, there is a difference between having a young core you are building around and putting the young core in charge too soon.

For example, early in his captaincy, the Pens went out of their way to bring in "experienced vets" to balance out the leadership (Guerin, etc.). Crosby was big enough to accept that. Richards, less so.

Yes, I do believe they have potentially just made the same mistake with Giroux they made with Richards.

Whether it turns out the same way remains to be seen - I hope it doesn't - it doesn't indicate to me that they have really learned a lot from their past mistakes.

They had Timonen tanned, rested and ready both times and, quite frankly, blew it.

That's why they put people like Pronger and Timonen around him and you even noted he didn't respond well to it. I'm not into this blaming the management crap. That's not to say they can't have haven't made mistakes, but rather that it goes both ways. You want to blame them for giving him the keys to the car, that's fair, but it's also up to him and he does when give the keys. At first, he seemed just fine, but when things got just a little difficult he was pathetic. Instead of trying to right the ship he spent his time arguing with the meadia, complaining how mean they were to him, and brushing off guys like Pronger and Timonen.

Whether the same thing happens to Giroux or not, I don't know. Right now, I say now, because he seems mentally tougher. He's also matured as a player much faster than Richards.

It has been a few coaches in a row that love to tinker. Lavi does it enough it's maddening, and really hurts in the end. There is a lack of continuity with the constant juggling. Unless the team is mired in a slump, I believe on keeping linemates together...Lavi seems to change them up just for the hell of it.

I remember thinking Hitchcock did it a lot, then Stevens came a long and he did it, and now Lavi. Is it like a thing now? Or have we just happened to have 3 guys who do it in a row?

My main thought in giving it a shot is that all three are signed long term and if it works out - chemistry, etc. - the upside seems huge. It also solves the problem of where to put Hartnell

The comparison I make is with Jagr. VLC doesn't have all of Jagr's puckhandling, etc. ability, but there is enough there that I do think he could be "Giroux's Jagr" for the next 3-4 years.

I can see what your thinking, though if they don't score in the first 5 minutes of the first pre-season game, they'll be broken up. Why is it that we seem to have several coaches in a row now who juggle lines....like a lot?

Well, you see, in many ways I agree with you. He did straighten up the team.

But, again - and this isn't at all "hindsight" - it goes back to pushing Richards into a "leadership" role and then the captaincy too quickly. They wrote the script for Richards as "the next Bobby Clarke" practically in their press releases about the draft. They had created a young core, complemented it with veterans and could make a run.

Putting the young core in charge was the problem.

So, if they don't make the mistake of putting Richards in that position they don't have to make the move to bring in Pronger. They can continue to complement their team with the assets they have to deal to bring in a Pronger. But they don't. They make another mistake and sign Bryzgalov.

And then they almost immediately put the C on Giroux. Who then misses the playoffs in his first year.

And they press the reset button again.

Reset buttons don't win championships. They put you in a position to win in the next 3-5 years.

I do believe that they are in a solid position. I do believe that this roster - pending how the defense gels and the goalies play - can win and make the playoffs.

But I'm still looking not next year but the 2-3 year period after that as the real time this team can make some serious noise again.

Yet here we are saying how much need to hold onto youth and built the team around them. Ain't that somthin'?

And I'm sorry, but scapegoating the organIzation for his shortcomings as a leader doesn't float with me. I agree they put him in that position too soon, but after that it's up to him to decided how to respond. He had a few good seasons (as a leader) where I was perfectly happy with him, but when it got just even a little hard, he whined like a baby. It didn't stop there either, when Pronger and Timonen spoke out (without directly naming anyone) he simply whined some more. He handled himself VERY poorly.

And no, I'm not complaining about every player. When they traded JVR, I was fine with it. Why? Because it was a fairly equal trade age/player-wise but also for a need. When they traded Richards and Carter, I was OK with it because I thought they actually were going to try and rebuild from top to bottom. Then they signed Bryz. What was the plan there? I mentioned earlier in the thread the list of players they've traded for who aren't even playing anymore, and all the picks and prospects they gave up for them who've won cups on other teams or are still producing. If you're fine with the memories of those 7 - 2nd place finishes, enjoy. I'd like to see another cup before I die. They've been trying the same method of building for 3 + decades. It hasn't worked. I'd like to see the try something different.

Here's that quote

"But bringing in a Kubina, Pronger, Nedved, Zhamnov, Markov, Amonte, Oates etc etc has brought us a grand total of squat. Yet, it's what we do...over and over and over.

Just an FYI for those who love the idea of bringing in a 38 year old player who'd likely cost us something like Simmonds and Laughton +, just from those players we traded for mentioned above, NONE of whom are still playing hockey, we gave up Lupul, Sbisa, Seidenberg, Williams, Fraser (3 have won cups) plus 3-1sts, 3-2nds 2 - 3rds and 3-4ths (not to mention prospects...and those who don't think they're worth anything, Brandon Dubinsky and Bryan Bickel were taken with two of those 4ths) plus we're saddled with a 5 million caphit we have to comply with at the start of each season for 4 more years. Ya, we traded all that for....nothing.

So what would help the team more right now... memories of Amonte and Pronger, or having Seidenberg Sbisa, Lupul etc (or players still playing we traded them for instead of trading for someone who USED to be ) or whatever we could have drafted with those 11 draft picks, 6 in the first 2 rounds?

See, stuff like this is where your argument goes to ****. I admit I'd like to have Seidenberg back, but seriously, who gives a **** about Sbisa, Lupul, or Williams? These are not impact players. These are not players who would have helped this team win a Cup or who's current team won a Cup because of them. Simply stated that so-and-so happens to be a young players who is no longer here and won a Cup elsewhere and using that as the backbone of your argument is weak as hell. It's completely illogical, because you aren't even examining what that player did here, with is new team, etc. You're just stating that they're no longer here and won a Cup elsewhere. It's kind of a strawman.

The question mark is the center - but by most accounts Schenn is ready to take a step forward. I think Simmonds and Voracek have taken that step and that the three of them can take a few steps together.

It's a lot of youth on one line and youth that isn't really at a certain level yet (like maybe Giroux), but I can see the appeal of playing him with Vinny. I think it could benefit the both of them to be honest. I have wanted a bigger guy with Giroux for a while and a smaller, fast, skilled guy might benefit ole Vinny.

L - C - R

Hartnell - VLC - Giroux

Simmonds - Schenn - Voracek

Read - Couturier - Laughton

(warm body) - Talbot - RInaldo

It's never the way the team will go, but that's what I'd take a shot on.

Would rather put Gags on that third line over Laughton (if he signs)

I'm just presuming that Laughton will be on the squad,

I think you're the only one who put Vinny and Giroux together. Interesting. You think that leaves enough scoring punch for the 2nd line, especially since you have Hartnell there too?

@fanaticV3.0

No, I'd like to see them hang on to draft picks or prospects and actually use them instead of throwing them away on another shot this year, and another shot next year, and another shot the year after. Trading JVR for Schenn is a heck of a lot better move for this franchise than trading JVR for say LeCavalier. Not RIGHT NOW, but in 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 years it is. But so many of our moves were made like that...go for it now. How good would the Flyers be, right now, if Holmgren would have gone old school on the Richards Carter trades? We'd have 2- 30 something year old guys making a ton of dough whose careers are just about done, and we WOULDN'T have Simmonds, Voracek, Couturier, Schenn or Cousins. Heck they even hung on to their picks this year and may finally have addressed the D. Holmgren and Clarke both threw 2nd rounders away like they were lepers. We end up getting Hagg there when they had him rated in the 1st. Maybe him and Morin never make it. Maybe they end up our future #1 and #2. They won't if you trade them away, that's for sure.

Richards and Carter were trading because "management believed" they weren't developing? Stop it. Just stop.

First of all, both of their stats dropped drastically after they each had a breaktout year. Richards was 07-09 and Carter 08-09 (which was also another great year for Richards). You cannot deny Their play hasn't come close to their production from those years. There is not "believing" they regressed a little, it's a fact. It's in the numbers.

That wasn't even my point though. If you are going to deny they had become a problem in the locker room, we have nothing to talk about. If you are so blinded by your opinoin you harp on any and every instance, regardless of the players performance or other circumstances, your opinion isn't worth the time it just took my to type this.

Before you go getting all offended, I have to reiterate there are times I wish they were more patient with youth and even certain players I wish they held on to. But I can count on one hand the recent ones who actually turned into decent players to the point you actually regret trading them. You, you're just upset about all of them, regardless of what the player ends up doing when he leaves or any other circumstances surrounding the situation. You're too extreme. You're bothered by every young player we ever traded away.

Ok, but they didn't win the Cup in almost 40 years. Think about this number for a second. 40 years! It's staggering and frightening especially for a big market team like the Flyers. And at least in my mind, the reason they did not win the Cup is because they tried to employ the same tactics of building the team for pretty much all these 38 years. So think again when you claim it's not the fault of the guys buidling the team. When you do it once and fail, OK, fine... one can chalk it up to bad luck. But when they tried the same exact blueprint for so many years and it generated the same result over and over again, how can it be attributed to anything else but the fundementally flawed approach?? I just don't undertsand your theory one bit.

In those seasons when they actually came close to winning, I would say only one year, they actually had a legit shot at winning the Cup. And that was in 2004 when they had every reason to beat the Bolts and till this day, I am convinced that if it wasn't for a beyond ridiculous array of injuries to key players, they would have handled the Lightining and would've beat the Flames in the SCF.

What other year did they have a legit shot at winning? And you can't fail to acknowedge that the futility and failure was essentially a direct result of how the management approached buidling the team. Bad luck for 38 years staright? Sorry, I am not buying it.

The organIzation has focused a lot on youth in recent years. They tanked last year and in 06 or 07 they were the worst team in the league. Even in going to the Cup just a few years ago, they barely made it to the POs. All of these years and several leading up to them had a lot of young players on the team.

Again, I have to reiterate I'm not against youth. I'm not in a rush to move any of our young guys. But I'm not anti-veteran either. We have seen what going all (mostly) young can result in. They were in over their heads last year. Same thing happened the year we handed the reigns to Carter, Richards, Upshall, Umberger in 06/07. You need both veterans and youth.

Just because he wasn't particularly physical doesn't mean that Carle couldn't play defense. He was fine in his own end. Not a shut down guy, but good enough. Almost certainly Streit (who I like) will be worse defensively. I think a lot of people tend to judge Carle through glasses that are tinted by the things he lacks (shot, hitting) and they overlook the reality that he was pretty good at pretty much everything else. Mike Green is a one way defenseman, Carle isn't.

I'm not sure where him not being physical means he can't play D comes into play, I don't recall saying that. I also don't recall saying Streit could play D. So, you will have to excuse my confusion as to why you are interjecting those two points into the conversation, because I certainly didn't insinuate them.

I hated the Pronger deal the day it happened. The evidence is on one of the few websites I've posted on. May even be here. Can't remember chronology.

Gave away too much for too long with too much immediate risk.

He cost too much money and it absolutely sucks we lost another guy to concussions, but come on. They came to within in one game of a cup - closer than they have been in my whole lifetime - because of him. That team had no business in the cup. Their season was a nightmare, it literally took until the last day of the regular season to even make the POs, but he was steady for them that entire season. He played really well in his short time here.

Plus, look at the bright side. Him being here kind of exposed some of the problems in the locker room. We already suspected they were there, but the entire frat boy mentality really had become a legitimate issue in the locker room. Pronger, Timonen, and some others pointed out guy snot trying as hard as they can and what not.

Lindros wasn't drafted by Philly. We traded 6 players, 2 -1st round picks and $15 million for him...I'd HOPE they'd have some patience. Richards and Carter were traded for whatever reasons before they reached their prime. That leaves Simon Gagne, drafted in 1998. What about Bobrovsky? JVR? Sbisa? Seidenberg? I'm just talking about Holmgren whose been gm since 2007.(Clarke was worse) In that time he's traded away 4-1st round picks, 8 - 2nd round picks, and 8- 3rd round picks. That ain't patience.

You're right, but he didn't play a second in the NHL for another team, so it's pretty much the same thing. He was a young player they acquired, gave the keys to the car, put pieces around him, and gave him plenty of time to grown.

For what ever reasons? Are you for real? Are you really going to sit there and act all baffled as to why they had to go?

Before they hit their prime? Richards and Carter had their best years here and have not duplicated that level since leaving. The only reason they have a Cup is because they were surrounded by better players on a better team and the pressure is off them. LA wins that cup with or without them.

What about them? Bob has had one legitimately good year since leaving. You cannot take that single season and say, "Ok, well that's it. Huge mistake trading him away." There's simply not enough to work there with yet. If he continues that level of play, that sucks for us, one year is one year chief. He could tank or simply be average the rest of his career. JVR and Sbisa are the same exact players they were when they left. Neither was an impact player when here and neither is now. Could they be one day? Yeah, but you're just pulling young players names out of thin air and and saying the fact they are gone is proof of your argument (regardless of how they are playing).

Seidenberg is a good player and I would love to have him on the team, but your argument is poop. You're just pulling names of players they traded away out of your ass, stating that they are gone, stating that it is a mistake, and aren't even taking into account what kind of player they are, their situation here, etc. And again, that's not to say they haven't rushed to judgement with some youth. There are a few players they drafted, traded for when they were very young, or signed as a FA I'd like to have back. But are there a ton of superstars or even impact players we have "lost out" on because we weren't patient enough with? Can you honestly say that? Off the top of my head, I'd like Sharp and Seidenberg back. Bob might be added to that list one day, but after one good year, I can't say we threw away the keys to the castle just yet. It's not just about simply having young players, it's about having good ones. You seem to think being young and drafted by the organization means we should hold onto them regardless of how they perform.

I agree you're never going to win with a bunch of kids. And the Flyers have also proven time and time again that you're never going to win by going for it every single year. I'm patient enough to let a group of kids develop over a period of say, 5 years, with some vets (Timonen, Gagne for example) showing them the ropes. Then when you look like you're a piece away, instead of every single year, you make that trade for the seasoned vet.

The problem I have with the Flyers is, they don't have the patience. They can't let the team evolve, they always have to force the issue. The team bottoms out (of course the year of one of the lamest drafts ever) and instead of letting it rebuild like championship teams do (another tough year would have netted us Stamkos, or Doughty, or Pietrangelo) we just finished buying out Briere who we just had to have (along with Drury AND Gomez). Follow that up by trading basically 4 first rounders for Pronger who holds up 5 million in cap to start each season for years to come. Hmmm, would I rather have those two, or one of the three guys mentioned prior to that who haven't even reached their prime yet? So we have a tough year this past year, get rid of Briere and Bryz, look to maybe FINALLY address the D through the draft and Homer runs out and signs LeCavalier....FOR FIVE FRICKIN' YEARS!!!. Is he going to "put us over the top"? Ya, right. But he will keep us out of the lottery when a franchise defenceman like Aaron Ekblad is available. So we'll likely make the playoffs, lose in the first or second round, and another year gets added on to the cupless drought. And in the meantime, I won't be surprised one bit if one or two of our talented young players that will win a cup, elsewhere, gets dealt off for a 30 something year old guy on his way out. Been watching this same formula for how long now?

I disagree. Now, that's not to say I think they have always been patient and there aren't a few young players I wish we waited longer on, but I don't agree that overall they just throw away youth. Richards and Carter were here for 6 seasons. Gagne and Lindros longer than that. All drafted by the organization. All of these players were given plenty of time to develop.

If you are going to throw Sharp, Williams, or Pitkanen in my face, I'm going to call BS on all 3. Unfair or not, Sharp and Williams were in Hitch's dog house. Sharp wasn't even given a chance and Williams - in addition to being in Hitch's dog house - was floundering here. Same for Pitkanen. There are some players who have to be traded sometimes. They are not going to work out in their current situation and the trade is why they do work out in their new situations. Would I like to have Sharp on the roster? Yes. But what I'm saying is that he was unfairly treated by his coach here and would have never blossomed had had stayed. Williams and Pitkanen, I could personally not care about. I don't regret trading them at all.

I agree. That's where I think the loss of Jagr and Carle cost them - at least the six points they needed to make the playoffs.

It may also be that there is a vet of the type you describe out there.

I just (unfortunately) don't think it's MSL.

I would have loved to have kept Jagr. I would love to get St. Louis if it doesn't cost the farm. Carle, I can live without. I just don't have much interest in one-way defenseman. I can recognize what they're good at, but if you are a defenseman who can't play D, you can take a hike as far as I'm concerned.

Putting together lines has always been one of my favorite things to do. I like to think I not only know more than other fans, but the coaches too. It's fun to discuss who you think would work best together. Problem for me is, as I have mentioned on another thread, I didn't give much of a **** last year. I watched a little bit and kept up in the papers and on talk radio, but I hate shortened seasons and was turned off. Plus, when I did tune in, I often found myself saying, "Who the hell is that?"

I'm not even sure who is under contract as far as some of the veterans go. Were Knuble and Gagne on 1-year deals?

Are the Flyers supposed to be "done" with free agents?

Do you put Vinny and Giroux together or do you split them up, put one with Voracek, the other with Simmonds, and fill in the gaps by throwing darts at a board? I can see wanting to split them up, but I feel like Giroux needs a higher caliber player to work with than just Simmonds or Voracek.

I'm not saying that we should specifically trade one or two of our young guys specifically for St. Louis, but I'd like to point out how well going young worked out for us this past year. The young guys looked completely overwhelmed and outmatched. They were kind of thrown to the wolves this year. Even our "leaders" were young. Giroux, who is still a kid, was supposed to lead a bunch of 2nd and 3rd year players? Come on. You need a balance of youth and experience (which is really all my point is).

@fanaticV3.0 `` It's just a game``

It`s a game yes, but guys have families to support, bills to pay, Ulfie took that away from at least 3 players that I know of. When you end a guy`s career from a pre-planned cheap shot, there are repercussions. These guys have friends and one thing leads to another. The little nap he took was not nearly severe enough punishment. It`s one thing to cheap shot somebody, but at *least* man up and fight afterwards, Ulfie would never do that, so something had to be done. If Domi had tried to fight him, he would have butt ended him, or turtled....Ulf was a true coward.

The topic is dirty players, not most deserving recipients. You might not like the recipient, but you still have to separate that when judging the offenders actions. Who is on the receiving end is irrelevant. Domi ran from many of our fighters and then gets involved in a 2-on-1 with Adam Burt!?! A 2-on-1 is a ***** move no matter who is involved, but when it's a non-fighter, the level of pussification that takes is immeasurable.

@fanaticV3.0@JR Ewing

Efff That. Samuelsson deserved worse.

A guy who intentionally tried to blow peoples knees out(And often did). A guy who intentionally high sticked people in the eyes. Cross check people in the neck as hard as he can. Spear people in the nuts. Butt ending people in the face.

He was always intentionally trying to knock people out of the game. Everytime you played him, you knew you had to keep an eye out for the cheap shots. This is a guy who players agreed almost unanimously as most hated in the NHL for YEARS.

He wore ridiculous sized hard armor for pads to maximize damage done by hits(His Nickname Robocop was not an affectionate one). He refused to answer the bell after the cheap shots.

In Todays NHL, Ulf would have been banned long ago. How often does a sucker punch like that invite praise from so many other NHLers? There was a reason for that.

You keep making this about Ulf. It's not about who the recipient is. We're discussing the offenders. The conversation isn't "who is the most deserving of a dirty hit" it's "who are some of the dirtiest guys around".

@fanaticV3.0

Anyone who punches Ulf Samuelsson did the right thing...even if it was a suckerpunch. It was the one time I liked Domi.

Suckerpunching someone in sports is a b!tch move. It's just a game. Play hard, but play like a man. It's up there with dirty stick work, kneeing, or other dirty **** that could really f-ck someone up. That's the kind of sh!t you should only if you think you are in legitimate danger. Like this one time when I was 15. This older guy was starting some sh!t with me. He grabbed me by the shirt, pins me against a wall, and was acting all threatening. He was like 4 years older than me, had some size on me, and was generally a "man" compared to me. So I put my head down as if I'm scared/embarrassed to look at him. He takes the bait and lets go of me, as if to say he won the pissing contest. The second he lets go and just starts to back up, but hasn't quite turned around, I hit him right in the mouth. He didn't see it coming at all. So, it turned him around, then I jump on his back and start punching him in the face before people broke it up.

@fanaticV3.0 He's actually a really nice guy off the ice. Totally opposite of his on the ice persona, if you can believe that. I've stayed at his Mom's house many times, know his brother and sister really well. I actually told him he just didn't want to fight Brash and he laughed. He would not go in depth with the on the ice stuff, but just stated there is more than meets the eye there, a lot of stuff people don't know and he just left it at that. My best friends Mom is Tie's Mom's sister. I tell ya, that guy would give the shirt off his back to anyone that needed help, he's a quality person. I do agree with you though, if Domi was not spraying water at fans like a 5 year old, that penaltly box fiasco would have never taken place. For my money, what Rob Ray did was much more violent, both the fans were in places that they should not have been, but Ray landed like 10 SOLID right hands to that guys noggin, he got a major beat down for his troubles!

The Ulf punch, let's just say Tie was pretty close with Cam and leave it at that....lol.

If he had one incident I disagreed with, I could cut him some slack and give him a second chance. Chris Gratton - like Riley Cooper - supposedly said the N-word. Everyone slips up. It happens. But Domi has such a wrap sheet, I can't stand him. He ran from Brash, McCarthy (and double-teamed Adam Burt of all people in the same game), gets into a fight with a fan after he started it, sucker punches people. I find guys who do this kind of stuff not only to be cowardly, but odd. Who can actually kick someone's ass, but chooses not to (Brash and McCarthy) or to go the cheap route (Ulf)? That's just puzzling to me.

Don't know if this topic was mentioned before but St. Louis is 38 years old as of this past June,

Cap hit is around $5.5 Million I believe, IMO, he would look good next to Vinny, who he played on a line with for many years in addition don't think Tampa is going anywhere for at least 2 years so what would it take to bring Martin St. Louis to Philly, if anyone is interested in a line of Vinny, St. Louis, Simmonds

Wow

He kind of amazes me. I'm always skeptical of late bloomers. I always expect them to be a flash in the pan kind of player, but he's still producing at a high level, which most guys don't do at his age.

Domi is a jerk. I have no doubts about that. However in this case, I think the player on the recieving end deserved what he got as karma for all the star players he intentionally tried to take out over the years(And yes, Ulf was looking to take them out). A lot of players, coaches and analysts felt so too.

Domi definitely got his cheap shots in as well, and I never agreed with them other than this one. Not sure about the fighting fans thing. The only time I remember that was when a drunk fan got sprayed with a bit of water. And then he did something stupid, trying to jump over the glass into the penalty box, actually breaking the glass down and then trying to get shots in at Domi. In this case, if Domi threw a few shots at the rabid drunk fan who was obviously trying to atack him, I would find it perfectly acceptable.

The funny thing is, I do not remember a single one of Ulf's teammates rushing to his defense either.

I did not watch the gam when it happened, but a friend called me and I watched highlights of it all night

He's a little more than a jerk boss. He's a f-cking disgrace. Suckering punching people, running from real fighters (and hiding behind officials while doing it), double-teaming against a single opponent (huge ***** move), has literally done it all in the cheap/dirty department. As far as the thing with the fan goes, Domi started that when he started spraying water on fans. You don't ever pull that minor league crap. Defending yourself is one thing, but Domi started that entire situation. Hell, he was the only one who threw a punch. The fat ass fan fell into the box, his shirt was over his head and Domi starts teeing off on him. He's a b!tch on every level.

@fanaticV3.0@JR Ewing

Efff That. Samuelsson deserved worse.

A guy who intentionally tried to blow peoples knees out(And often did). A guy who intentionally high sticked people in the eyes. Cross check people in the neck as hard as he can. Spear people in the nuts. Butt ending people in the face.

He was always intentionally trying to knock people out of the game. Everytime you played him, you knew you had to keep an eye out for the cheap shots. This is a guy who players agreed almost unanimously as most hated in the NHL for YEARS.

He wore ridiculous sized hard armor for pads to maximize damage done by hits(His Nickname Robocop was not an affectionate one). He refused to answer the bell after the cheap shots.

In Todays NHL, Ulf would have been banned long ago. How often does a sucker punch like that invite praise from so many other NHLers? There was a reason for that.

Domi's a *****. If you can - and he easily could have - beat someone's ass than do that. You want to send a message? Level him. Beat him in a fight. But when he did there was no better - and in fact much worse - than what Ulf actually did to him in that very game. He's one of those guys who got weird at the end of his career too, running from goons, fighting fans, just cowardly stuff.

@ruxpin

Samuelsson is a pretty good name to come up with, I think. Made a career out of low hits, and there's probably lots of Bruins fans who still loathe for the Neely hit. In those days it was probably a toss-up as to who was hated more: Samuelsson or Bryan Marchment.

Tie Domi didn't like him:

I didn't like Ulf, but that was one of the most irresponsible, cowardly, and flat out ***** moves I've ever seen.

JR

You may not want him captain, but that is not what Team Russia thinks:

http://sportsillustr...-petersburg.ap/

Good for them. If they think he's a leader, they get whatever is coming to them. Dude's got talent, but is in no way, shape, or form a leader.