Commander Clueless

@Podein25 Yeah I don't know if I'd go that far, but something needs to change. Leafs have some good players, but the team structure (or maybe style, I don't know) is just off. Or something.

I don't think any rational Leafs fan ever thought we were cup contenders, but we went from a post lockout scramble to make the playoffs to a full fledged rebuild to an epic collapse under Wilson. Then we finally, FINALLY made the playoffs in a shortened season and had an epic collapse in game 7.

"But it's okay!" we said. "We're finally seeing progress!".

Sadly, almost a decade after this whole debacle began, and where are we? Back to fighting for 9th place. At least there's youth on the team now, I guess. It's a start.

@OccamsRazor

Leafs were kind of in an awkward position with Rielly, from what I read. They thought he wouldn't benefit from another season in the WHL and, while maybe not completely ready for the NHL, he has been quite good for the Leafs. Not amazing, but good with flashes of brilliance.

The quote on why Schenn stuck around was more along the lines of "because our defense was terrible". So yeah, bit different of a situation I guess. Plus they drafted Schenn in part for his highly touted "NHL readiness", which I think most people look back on as untrue.

@J0e Th0rnton

While I'm happy that your workdays are more enjoyable, I can't say I'd take it over the Leafs winning. No offense.

As unbearable as the fanbase can be at times, it still hurts.

Also, you sir are a cunning bastard.

My brother has accepted the Leafs are not making the playoffs and is calling for a full-blown rebuild. I too don't see the Leafs winning with their current core; it may be the best option.

With the way they are playing right now, I'm not sure I want them to make it. It's painful to watch.

I don't know about "full-blown rebuild" considering they just barely finished the last one (not even sure it's done yet), but we'll see.

@jammer2 Their lack of identity started earlier this year. No idea why it happened, but it did. Carlyle may have lost the room. Not sure how many coaches they need to go through.

I like how Avery still thinks himself king of the world. Nothing gets him down, apparently.

Clearly the greatest man that has ever lived. I say we build a statue in his honour.

And then nuke it.

Going to be a fun race I think.

Except for Toronto. The Leafs are <insert rudest possible farting noise here>.

Burke's comments about trucks going off cliffs seems appropriate here.

My mind is blown, a five game pointless streak has dropped them into a tie with the Wings with the rest of the pack.

 

  Reimer has been hideous the team having been outscored 19-12 during this stretch. JVR with one point and a -5. Kadri 1 point and a minus 4. plenty of blame to go around.

 

  To me it seems the team has zero confidence with Reimer and they play a tentative game with him in net. Bernier is the only one who can right this ship.

They've imploded. Again.

It's ridiculous. I don't even know if Bernier could right the ship right now. He's been awesome this year so he might be able to, but they are playing like headless chickens.  This team is playing like Ron Wilson is back at the helm.

The players are frustrated too.

It seems they do, in fact, suck again.

@ruxpin

If we're talking recent disappointments, perhaps. But to be honest, in the list of recent disappointments, JVR is near the bottom of the list that includes most of the team.

@yave1964

True, but Franson's disappointment comes from his complete lack of ability to play even strength this year. Last year he looked like he might be rounding out into a very good top 4 guy.

Can we list Toronto's entire team for the past month or so?

If not, Clarkson is the best choice. Honourable mention to Franson after his stellar year last  year.

Sadly, my theory that the Leafs are toast this year seems to be coming true.

You'd have to think Reimer is as good as gone after this season.

I would assume so.

@Commander Clueless

 

 I think they lost Reimers "compete" level when the coach threw him under the bus.

Well that certainly didn't help, but I think he lost something well before that. Something about losing the starter job seemed to throw him off. Mind you, he didn't get a game in for a good while.

@Commander Clueless

 

 I find it hard to believe Carlysle is coaching that style of play. Which means the team just isn't listening to him. At the start of the year I thought "this won't last long (that style) because the coach won't allow it". But here we are in March and those guys are still playing river hockey. And they will never be mistaken for the 80s Oilers talent-wise.

I thought they would tighten up too, and that Carlyle would never allow them to continue down this path of pond hockey. But he has. I don't understand what's happening, but it's not pretty. If he's lost the room, he needs to be replaced.

@Evilmonkey  Either the Leafs are just plain ol' not listening, or Caryle is a brutal coach, but either way, they need to change things up for next year. The only way I see Caryle back is if the Leafs win a minimum of 2 playoff rounds, which is a nearly an impossible task with the brand of defense they are employing. Teams just don't magically change their ways just cause it's a 7 game series. In the end, the Leafs will go as far as Bernier takes them, assuming he returns to health. I'm not a huge Riemer fan, but he takes a bad rap from a lot of Leaf fans, he has a very respectable lifetime save percentage.

Reimer's a good goalie I think, but he has been brutal lately. He's just lost his will to compete in Toronto...or something. It's crazy.

Not that his team has been helping him out, but the soft goals are backbreakers.

@B21

@Commander Clueless

 

I think letting up once a team gets 2 or 3 goals up on its opponent is pretty standard across the league and across sports in general.

the worst of the sports for this though is baseball, because no matter how many runs you get up on your opponent you still have to throw the ball across the plate until you get 27 outs. 

True, but when you are a team (Leafs) that can't play defense to save their lives, this is never a good idea.

@yave1964

 

 When you miss the playoffs for a decade, you HAVE to have some talent.

 

 What's their identity? They refuse to play D and leave every game up to their goalie to win? Wonder how that's going to pan out for them. They were tough to play against last year. This year theyre not. They get outplayed almost every single game.

 

 I honestly can't believe they're still in the playoff hunt. They rely on one line to score all their goals and their goalie to bail them out. Even if they hang on and slide into the playoffs they won't be hard to figure out in a 7 game series.

As a Leafs fan I have to agree with this.

Yave is right that Carlyle gave them an identity, but you are also right that this year they lost it. Completely.

They are no longer a team that is hard to play against, they are a team that rides Kessel and Bernier and refuses to play defense. Such a contrast from last year and I don't know what happened.

I don't think it's time to rid ourselves of Randy yet, but he needs to get this 18-wheeler back on track or it's going straight off the cliff again.

As the Leafs plummet from 2nd in the division to the comfy, warm, familiar, gaping maw that is the playoff "bubble" with a mere 3 game losing streak, I think it's time to resurrect this thread once again.

The question becomes, do we in fact suck again? Or will they make a comeback?

It almost seems like their defensive crapiness is starting to catch up with them and it's scary. I guess without Bernier to bail them out, things are looking grim. Nothing against Reimer who has been quite good, but their playoff chances are getting frighteningly worse.

Thoughts? Observations? Suggestions for Carlyle? Snide remarks?

So what you're saying is you can have abysmal without Bylsma.  Damn its all so clear now.   

 

Now if you can only clear up the Kennedy asassination, Area 51 and which came first of the chicken and egg I can sit back and relax.

Sure thing.

Kennedy assassination was staged, as he is currently hanging out in Area 51 with Elvis. Area 51 itself is actually a retirement home, but is utilized by the government to distract people from the true alien landing site - San Francisco.  Funnily enough, the chicken and the egg thing is much closer than people think, but the truth is chicken because the first chicken to step foot on this planet in 3013 B.C. from the Great Poultry Mothership was pregnant and went in butt first. Chicken wins, but just by the tail feathers.

But in the end, all of this adds up to the Penguins being a very good, if somewhat unpredictable team. I personally think it's time to change coaches up, not necessarily because Bylsma is bad, but because it's just time to shake things up. This is all assuming, of course, that they don't win the cup this year. Which they very well could.

Then what was he doing? Saying hello?

 

Kessel was not jumped. He reached for an opposing team's player and that player responded. Kessel reacted by hitting said player with his stick, which was the 3rd time he had done that in 2 recent games. I don't care what he did before that, that's a trend and I don't feel even a little guilty about calling him cheap or dirty.

No, no. I just mean I disagree that there is no reason why players would place hands on each other except to fight, because it happens. Again, I don't think Kessel is innocent there, but he is clearly not interested in fighting. I have no respect for Scott attempting a fight there where Kessel had no interest, and had (up to that point) thrown no cheap shots or anything that would deserve him needing to "answer the bell" so to speak. On the subject of this thread, that's one of types of fights that I don't like in the game today, and I don't like it regardless of what team or star player it happens to. John Scott has no business dropping the gloves on Kessel, the same way he would have no business dropping the gloves on Claude Giroux or Pavel Datsyuk or Thomas Vanek, etc.

And again, when I use the word "jumped" I don't mean Kessel was just plodding along happily and was ambushed, I mean Scott involved him in a fight he had no desire to participate in. I just don't know a better word for it.

I guess I'm with commander. I enjoy fights when they are a natural response to the emotion or situation of the game. Often the staged fights do interrupt the flow of the game. Sometimes interrupting the flow is specifically the point (like one team is down 3-0 early do they send out some clown to start a fight to rally the troops).

All that said, I thoroughly enjoy a good line brawl and one of my all time favorite games was the Ottawa /Philly brawl in... Was it 2004?

That game ended up being nothing about hockey, but it was really entertaining just for spectacle sake.

I enjoy the bench clearing brawls as well. They may not end up about hockey, but they are brought on because of high emotions in a hockey game.

It's also entertaining. Even "staged" fights can be entertaining to watch to a certain extent, but I don't like how they tend to interrupt the game.

There are MORE reasons to hate Crosby??

Awesome, I'm in.

Dan Bylsma is abylsmal.

See what I did there?

I think Kessel figured as a "golden boy" he was free of the obvious implications of what he was doing - that there was no way Scott would drop the gloves with him because he was "talent" and Scott was a "goon". He jawed it up and was face-to-face with a goon who's sole purpose was to be on the ice to clobber someone. He then raises his arm towards Scott and then is "surprised" that the goon does exactly what everyone knew the goon was there to do.

 

Kessel was acting as if he was "talking" with Ville Leino or Christian Erhoff - not John Scott. Was Kessel just asking Scott how much time was left in the period, what his lace count was or whether he saw "The Voice" the night before? I highly doubt it. I haven't seen a transcript, but I have to believe that Kessel's telling Scott something to the effect that the Sabres suck this year and/or he doesn't belong in the league (which I agree with).

 

The exact kind of thing that's likely to provoke a goon to act like, well, a goon.

 

Again, I don't believe that was a "good fight" in the context of this thread. But I also don't see Scott "jumping" a completely unsuspecting Kessel. Kessel was face to face, not minding his own business. Kessel engaged with Scott. He was not "jumped" - he saw it coming. Or should have.

 

I do not believe what Scott did was appropriate - primarily because I don't believe there is need for players like Scott in the league. But it was not at all shocking to me watching it.

Fair enough.

I'm not saying Kessel was being smart there. Not exactly sure what he was doing, but I also don't think he expected to be in a "fight" a second later.

My main point is I don't think a fight like that which wasn't consensual has a place in the game, regardless of who brought what questionable parentage into the topic of discussion. You may have expected the reaction from Scott (and that's fair enough), but as you said that doesn't make his action right.

Kessel-related banter aside, I do think it brings up an interesting point of fighting. We talk about players policing themselves, but at what point does it go too far?

There is literally no other reason to put your hands on somebody - particularly in a hockey game - other than to start a fight.

 

You use your stick like a baseball bat on 3 separate occasions, you're dirty.

I completely disagree with your first line. But if you think that Phil Kessel had the intent of start a fight with John Scott (think about it for a second, never even mind his surprised and panicked reaction), I'm not sure what to say. Anyway, my main point there in relation to the topic of fighting is that sort of "fighting" has no place in the game, IMO. If Kessel drops his gloves or punches Scott in the face, different story.

Considering he earned a grand total of one suspension for his stickwork in the span of two games I'll wait before I label him a "cheapshot artist", thanks. Not saying his actions were acceptable or clean, but you're jumping on a guy pretty quick there given his previous track record.

Not hostile, lol.  What was he trying to do, brush dandruff off Scott's shoulder? You put your hands on anyone in real life, you shouldn't be surprised if you get punched, let alone in a game where physicality is allowed. Not hostile, lol. How ridiculous. The only one you are fooling with that lame argument is yourself. 

 

Nobody got jumped in that fight, least of all Kessel.

 

I don't know. Has he done it more than once or is it an isolated incident? I wouldn't hesitate to call a Flyer dirty just because he's a Flyer.

No, I don't think he was trying to brush dandruff off. When I say "not hostile", I mean he's not pushing him around and getting in his face - he's rather passive (if that was a roughing attempt, it was pretty pathetic  ). I don't see how that can be interpreted as Kessel starting it. Scott drops his gloves and goes straight after him.

No idea what their discussion was about or why he did what he did, but "brushing" his hand against Scott is not a "hostile" action, in the sense that anybody would interpret it as the beginning of a consensual fight. If you think Kessel was starting a fight there, then I don't know what to tell you.

For what it's worth, I don't think an enforcer going after a non-fighting scorer like that is EVER right, barring that scorer throwing a big cheap shot. I gave the example of Colton Orr jumping Brian Gionta, who was part of a group of Habs clearly engaged with Orr.

So because Kessel got "fancy" with his stick in two games, he should be considered a cheap shot artist after a clean record prior to that? Especially with nobody getting hurt? Don't think so. I don't think he's an angel or anything, but my point was a lot of players make dirty plays when they are pissed off.

But hey, you're entitled to your opinion of course.

A fair comment. I wouldn't necessarily agree that their D has any depth. It needs general improvement not just one guy. Bernier owner here, so I need them to get better defensively as a team as well so his GAA can come down to match up with his stellar SV%. Bolland's injury really hurt the team especially in building and sustaining a team culture that cares about defense night in and night out

Well, when I say they have depth, I mean they have an abundance of the type of guys you typically see moved at the deadline as "depth defensemen". They are definitely lacking on the top end. One high end guy and some time to let guys like Gardiner and Rielly develop would go a long way I think.

Also, better two-way play from their forward group would help. Like, a lot. Please.

Anyway, I suppose we should agree to disagree. These discussions brought back negative feelings about Kessel that I had almost left behind.

The on topic theme I guess is that I don't fully agree with the "players policing themselves" notion. I think that cheap shots and dirty plays should be policed by the league, and anything that the teams do on the ice to get revenge is just gravy. For the most part, the league does this. They aren't great at it maybe, but they do it.

Problem with might makes right is that the "mightier" team in terms of toughness may have been the problem to begin with.

Still, I enjoy fighting when it doesn't detract from the game. It makes rivalries more intense too. I don't think hockey would be the same sport without it.

Sorry for hijacking the thread a bit, yave.

@B21

That's something the Leafs do to that I don't like. If they get a lead, they go into defensive mode.

Unfortunately, their defensive ability is not often up to the task, and they let teams back into the game in the 3rd period. They are pretty good at winning overtimes, but a lot of those games should never have made it there.