BobbyClarkeFan16

Much like Giroux,  this club isn't as bad as some people think they are,  but they aren't as good as we're being lead to believe.

The Islanders exposed the Flyers team play in the playoffs and other teams have adjusted. While the club has been lucky and pulled out wins in numerous great efforts from various individuals, what's scary is that coaching staff has failed to adjust their game plan.  They're trying to turn a puck carrying and possession team into a dump and chase team and they refuse to embrace the possession game. I don't get why the Flyers franchise always goes these old dinosaurs or incompetent boobs that have no idea on how to embrace this style of game. 

On top of it  they've all but killed the confidence of Travis Konecny by making an example out of him for no reason.  Was he playing bad? Well he certainly wasn't playing great, but there were far worse players on the club than him. And notice how the captain didn't go to bat for Travis, that he basically left him to fends for himself? The lack of accountability from the veterans also plays a huge role in the team's performance. 

It's the same old, same old gig on right now....

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

They don't need size they have good size they issues it is a team full big ol pu$$is excuse my French.

 

Excluding a few guys...ok mostly just NAK because guys like Laughton and Raffl stopped being physical too.

Oh I get it. What I'd give to have a Tocchet-type player in the lineup.

It was a fluke, no doubt. Unfortunately, the Frost injury is probably going to start the 'Flyers need size' garbage that is inevitably going to start. 

4 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Looking back on the 2018 draft, Farabee is outscoring pretty well anyone not taken top 4 (and Quinn Hughes taken 7th) while providing a good all around game.

 

There aren't any players at this point taken after who have leaped ahead of O'Brien as far as their NHL careers go, so really as long as he keeps developing...

 

 Ginning was such a non- Hextall type pick I'm still scratching my head there. 

 

 Wylie has been coming along quite well.

 

 Ersson too!

Ginning was an awful puck.  There was no need for him. I look at some of the players taken after him and I really wonder wtf Hextall was thinking.  Akil Thomas,  Calen Addison, Benoit-Olivier Groulx, and Gabriel Fortier are some of the players the Flyers could have selected.  Instead,  those chose a 6'4 bag of crap with limited mobility and no puck skills. That was such a waste of a pick.  I don't even know if the Flyers would get a compensatory pick if they don't sign him. 

1 minute ago, Digityman said:

I hope not.  He's coming into his own and his offensive side will only get stronger.  

York is Ghosts replacement.  Writing is on the wall.

This is year number 4 with Sanheim now.  It's time for him to **** or get off the pot. I want to root for the guy, but I see too much of Braydon Coburn in his game. There's indecisiveness, followed up by period where he looks like he's made the jump and he's going to be a dominant defender,  only to watch him slide back and be mired in mediocrity. I'm worried about the affect the coaching staff is having on his game because Sanheim looks like he's regressing something fierce under their watch.

8 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Yeah not sure how much of an upgrade he would be the knock on him as well is he has a lot to be desired when it comes to playing defense in his own end.

 

Right now in my mind their best option is to get Friedman going and playing. Kid is a smooth skater with some good offensive tools in the toolbox.

 

I would love to see him take Braun's spot on the 3rd pair.

 

But for some reason the staff thinks he has some work to do...I just don't know why he can work on that while playing especially over a Hagg, Guss or Braun whom we pretty know what they are.

 

Friedman we still don't know.

The staff are slowly becoming retards.  At one time, Philadelphia was the goaltending graveyard. Now, Philadelphia is becoming a graveyard for coaching. After some of the decisions that Vigneault made during the playoffs and so far this year, it bears some merit. It's ridiculous that Friedman,  statistically, has played better than Braun, Hagg and Gustafsson,  yet he's been continually scratched because 'grrrrr......grizzled veteran leadership' or some garbage like that. 

I get why the club isn't doing anything right now - the expansion draft has to be considered. So,  say if they made a deal for a guy like Montour, they can't protect him or they risk losing one of Sanheim or Myers. At the same time, teams are hemorrhaging money because of no fans and in a gate driven league,  that's incredibly tough to see. So some clubs aren't going to make moves if it means that they're adding additional expenses to payroll. 

Once the pandemic and vaccination issues are straightened out and once the expansion draft is over,  we'll see moves being made. I fully expect that they'll be busy this upcoming off season. There's lots of young players coming up through the system and honestly, we're probably going to see some shockers. I fully expect Sanheim to be moved to make way for York.  I also expect that Ghost will be moved and that they'll find that legitimate right side defenceman to play alongside Provorov. As for the forwards, one of JVR/Voracek will be moved. I do expect that they'll add some much needed muscle to the lineup and that a guy like Allison will be given every opportunity to make the team. Just my own $0.02 with what I think will happen. 

12 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

This was meant regarding the forwards, everyone knows Provorov and Hart are great and Meyers has potential. Coots is very good in a blue collar style, but he is like a pickup truck. We do not have an exciting dynamic goal scorer/skater who is  the kind of player who makes his line mates better and who other teams fear because they can’t stop him. Konecny, Patrick, Lindblom...You are basing everything on potential. Do you recall in the playoffs every time Barzal’s line was on the ice they spent the entire shift in our zone and dominated, we couldn’t get the puck away from their guys and it looked like they were on a PP. When was the last time we had a line or even one player like that ? I’m waiting........

 

The playoffs were a great example of piss poor coaching and not adjusting strategy accordingly.  The isles stuck to their game plan. AV panicked and made all sorts of terrible mistakes. As well,  let's not forget that the veterans in this club (JVR, Giroux, etc....) failed to show up.  Konecny was a disappointment and I'll be the first to admit that. 

The Rangers had how many 'elite game brakes in their lineup and did they even qualify? What about Buffalo? What about Pittsburgh? The biggest issue I see with the Flyers is this continued reliance on guys who have been here for years and believing they're going to lead the way. The refusal to put their younger players in pairings to take over astounds me. It's time to move on from the Girouxs, the Voraceks, the JVRs and let guys like Konecny,  Farabee, Frost, etc... start taking on those roles. 

That also brings up another point.  This team has never done a proper rebuild. Never. They've tried all sorts of quick fixes and retools because 'Philadelphia Flyers'. If they would have taken their legitimate lumps for three to four years, they would have been better off. Instead, they get a couple of high picks and then rush things through.  The other part of the equation is the AHL club and how they're coached.  Scott Gordon doesn't even come close to running a system like Vigneault and has the young players playing fire wagon hockey.  They then get to Philadelphia and they're out of sorts.  There's no cohesion or anything like that with the big club and the kids have to learn all new terminology and systems.  It's baffling. Fix those and you've got a club and farm system that is in sync and players can step right in and not miss a beat. 

I think people are making a big deal out of nothing. The idea that there isn't any 'game breakers' or 'elite' level players in Philadelphia is laughable. Is there a generational type player in the lineup? No. Those are a rarity. That's the reality of it. Not many teams in the league have those generational players. However, there are several game breakers and elite level players in the Flyers lineup.

Let's start with the forwards. We all know about Couturier's play. We know he's an elite two-way center. We know Konecny is a goal scorer and in the future seasons, 30 to 35 a year with the odd season of 40 to 45 will be on the mark. We know that Lindblom is a solid presence around the net and can be used to free lanes for guys like Konecny. Nolan Patrick looks like he might start hitting that draft pedigree that was expected of him. Farabee looks to be taking his game to another level. 

As for the defense, everything begins with Provorov. He's just a minute munching defenseman who can play in all situations. He might not be a power play quarterback, but he's not an idiot there either. You know you're going to get 10 to 15 goals and 30 to 35 assists from Provorov. You're also going to get elite defensive play out of him. If Myers can get over his injury issues, you've got a right handed defenseman with elite upside. Sanheim, to me, is the biggest disappointment of the bunch. So many tools to him. If he even had a quarter of Provorov's brain, he'd be all world. It's insane that he simply hasn't been able to put it together. Mike Yeo is pretty good at developing defensemen and Sanheim just seems to be regressing under his watch. It's scary. 

Then we get to nets and we've got Hart. He can be an elite guy, but the Flyers have to be careful not to run him into the ground. The days of goalies playing 60 to 70 games a year are done and over with. Give him 50 to 55 starts a year and then use your back up for the remainders. No back to back nights. 

My biggest concern right now is coaching. This is a club that has an incredible amount of depth. However, this is an incredibly disorganized group. We're year 2 into Vigneault and they still look as disorganized as they have in years past. Why is the message being lost on this group and why can they not pull it together? It's not as if the Haktard is still here, although I still see lots of components of Haktard's game plan that Vigneault uses, namely the shell aka Heroes of the Hakshell, Turd Hole Power!!!! There's no need for that. It's time to get tough with the guys and it's time to make examples of veterans and let the young guys run with the team. 

20 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

@Zzeke

 

I'm not from Winnipeg so I don't feel a strong need to defend it. But I had to move away and come back to appreciate it. For those who don't know anything about Wpg besides the cold:

 

- Some of the best restaurants in all of North America, due to a diverse immigrant population

- A world class ballet and generally one of the best Arts scenes in North America

- A fantastic music scene with many great old theater venues

- Lowest cost of living in all of Canada, cheap housing, cheap electricity (Hydro)

- A diverse economy shielded from the negative effects of big economic slumps

- A world class Zoo with an amazing polar bear exhibit

- The museum of human rights so American neo-Nazis can come learn about the holocaust and other travesties, like Canada's shoddy treatment of Indigenous people

 

People think Winnipeg is a small city - it's not any longer: the population of the greater Winnipeg municipal area is around 800,000. That's an economic engine which affords, among other things, an NHL hockey team.

 

 

 

I love Winnipeg. My best friend lives there and I try to visit at least once a year. There's one restaurant he brought me to that's close to St.Bonifice and the Soeur Gris that had the best Huevos Rancheros I've ever had. I was also downtown Winnipeg with him and we met Connor Hellebuyck, Blake Wheeler,  Mark Scheifele and Kyle Connor.  Yeah, Winnipeg is such a cool and underrated city. 

5 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

I wouldn't say that at all. I actually kind of think this is a good deal all around. Dubois is the more established of the bunch, so it makes sense he would command more than Laine does. They're different players of course, and ideally a team would have both, but that's not how trades like this work.

 

I guess the one tricky bit here is that WPG now has two viable top centers and no elite shooter, while CLS has has an elite sniper and no real top center to feed him pucks anymore. Also, if Torts had a problem is Dubois, he's going to absolutely hate Laine. 

 

Everything is projection at this point, but imo WPG will benefit more than CLS in the immediate time. If CLS can get a less ridiculous coach and a solid top C to feed Laine some pucks, that could change of course.

 

I could absolutely see Laine traded again in the not too distant future, if only because Torts is toxic, and I'm not sure he'll be very interested in that for very long.

Dubois is most definitely NOT the established player out of the bunch.  That's Laine and honestly,  it isn't even close.  And it's funny when people talk about Laine that he's not going to last long in Columbus. Tortorella loves offensive players. Brad Richard, Martin St Louis and Vincent Lecavalier all played incredibly well under his watch, so the motion that Laine won't play well under Tortorella is far fetched. Panarin played well. Is Tortorella demanding? Yep,  but if you do your job, you play.

Can Dubois end up being the best player in the deal? Possibly.  But let's not pretend that Patrick Laine,  he of 36, 44, 28 and 30 goal seasons, is some kind of chump change.

Wow, Dubois and a 3rd for Laine and Roslovic. Winnipeg got HOSED in this deal. They couldn't get an extra player or two to kind of even things out? Cheveldayoff clearly panicked on this trade. Brutal for Winnipeg. Absolutely brutal.

10 minutes ago, Zzeke said:

Article at Broad Street Buzz last night - 

 

But what would a trade between the Flyers and the Blue Jackets look like?  

 

Ultimately it would be tough to say, as we do not know how they value our players, but as a starting point you would most likely need to include Nolan Patrick in any deal involving Dubois, plus prospects and picks.

 

It would allow Columbus to receive a center back, and one with the potential to be a first line center, if not a very high level second line center.  The Flyers should not hold any prospect off the trade table.  Zamula?  York?  Brink?  The hard truth is that, with all the prospects drafted under Hextall and Fletcher, there is no realistic way that they would all make the big club.

 

Columbus needs not only talent, but players that can remain under their control, as they have found it difficult to retain players like Duchene, Panarin, Bobrovsky, and now Pierre-Luc Dubois. What better way then to grab skilled prospects that can remain cost controlled on your roster for years?

 

The need for a big move to shake up the current [Flyers] roster is not only needed, but warranted.

 

We’ve already seen the impact of what Kevin Hayes has brought to the team, the first big move by Chuck Fletcher.

 

I don't think the Flyers are going to put Patrick on the table. That almost sounds rather Ektardian of Broad Street Buzz to even mention Patrick's name. Will Frost's name be on the table? Absolutely. Even with his shoulder, you can bet that Kekalainen and Tortorella would love a player of his ilk. I also don't see Zamula, York or Brink on the table either. Zamula is loved by the current group, York looks to be a potential Brian Leetch clone and Brink could be a potential Gagne-type of player. I still think that the Flyers would put Laughton and Sanheim on the table and if that's not good enough, they'd move on. I also couldn't see Kekalainen walking away if a Dubois + another piece (maybe David Savard or Gabriel Carlsson) for Laughton, Sanheim and Frost.

3 minutes ago, Zzeke said:

 

I blame the Blue Jackets for this. Not so much Tortorella as much as it is Kekalainen. Everyone in hockey knows what kind of coach Tortorella is. So the fact that Dubois dogged it wasn't so much a slight at Torts or his teammates. This was his way of speeding up the process. As for Jarmo, he knew that Dubois wanted out for some time  (according to some reports, Dubois wanted out shortly after the playoffs) and instead, he kept a malcontent knowing that there was a good probability this was going to backfire. And now we're witnessing that. I'm not condoning Dubois for dogging it, but at the same time, this situation was going to happen. This can't be compared to the Bobrovsky or Panarin situation either because neither of them asked to be moved. Dubois did. Kekalainen had time to work out a deal, but he didn't. 

1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

That is where I am at with him.

 

And Coburn is a great example.

 

I think by the time he is 32 he will have figured out the defensive aspects of his game...but we can always hang our hats on the ol he was home grown thing till then...it is why I would include him in a trade for a solid piece back.

 

I think Zamula will be able to fill the gap left by him.

 

And hey I know this is going to ruffle some Canucks feathers and all because well he blew past Zaboril one time...

 

I really thought Sanheim was going to thrive under Mike Yeo. He seems to have a touch with defensemen and that he's developed several good ones during his time in St. Louis. The fact that Sanheim can't seem to get it going under Yeo leads me to believe that maybe he just simply wasn't as good as we were lead to believe. And honestly, I think York might end up being the best of the bunch. There's simply no panic in his game. He makes smart decisions all the time and he just knows how to get that puck off his stick quickly and up to his forwards. 

At this point, I'm sure Sanheim is going to kept though because Vigneault and company believe this roster is a Stanley Cup contending roster. However, we still have three playoff dogs in the lineup and a bottom pairing defense group that are colossal screw ups when on the ice. But, argh siiiize and all that other crap. 

Look, everyone assumes that the issue is with Tortorella, but what if the issue is actually with Jarmo Kekalainen? I mean, everyone in hockey knows what Torts is like as a head coach, but at the end of the day, he's fair and he's going to play you if you buy in. However, there where also whispers that negotiations between Columbus and PLD weren't going well and that maybe, just maybe, Jarmo might have said or done something that offended PLD. We don't know. Yeah, PLD dogged it, no doubt. At the same time, the franchise had to know that this was going to happen sooner or later. You don't have a malcontent in there and then expect them to be content while awaiting a move. This partially falls on Kekalainen for knowing the player didn't want to be there and he just kind of mulled it over and did nothing. I'm certain that PLD could have been moved at the draft and the return would have been outstanding. This always happens when a franchise keeps a disgruntled player. It just makes for an ugly situation and nobody wins. 

8 hours ago, Zzeke said:

 

I don't get those being down on the 24 year old, 6-4, Sanheim, and only after 5 games.

 

I suspect that the focus by some is that he is soft because he tries to avoid hits, without those also focusing on all of his attributes as our Flyers #2 defenceman: age, length, poke-check, D-zone positioning, minimal turn-overs, good D-zone exit passing, excellent skater, will join the rush and is dangerous in the offensive zone, excellent shot, good on the Power Play point when needed, good on PK. 

 

The 24 year old Sanheim has up-side as he has only 2 full NHL seasons and has not reached his peak. It's common for young talented defencemen to take approx 3-4 full seasons to fully mature in the NHL game. Wise GMs know that and won't panic and trade.

 

A good example comes to mind - - young Pronger was slow to develop and after 2 seasons Hartford traded him to St Louis for a forward. It took him 2 more seasons in St Louis to become a + player. In his 5th season he emerged with a +47 year and went on to become an all-star. I'm not saying Sanheim will become a Pronger, but I am saying patience is in order for a young promising defenceman with skills. Fletcher won't panic.

 

And, it's much harder for NHL teams to build a quality defense unit than the forward lines.

 

GM Fletcher on Oct 17, 2020:

 

I think [Ivan] Provorov’s elite defensively, [Travis] Sanheim and Myers, in my opinion, will become elite shutdown defensemen in this league.

 

The 30 other GM would salavate at getting Sanheim. And, of course, our Flyers 3 defencemen on the Protected List for the July Expansion Draft will be Provorov, Sanheim, and Myers (the #1, #2, and #3 defencemen).

 

Just IMO.

 

I'm down on Sanheim because the skill is there. The physical tools are there. The toolbox might not be there because he makes questionable decisions several times a game, which leads me to believe that he doesn't have the IQ to put it all together and he'll be another Braydon Coburn type. Let's not forget that Coburn's first season here, he put up 36 points, but then his numbers went down and his play became more and more inconsistent every year after that. That's what I see with Sanheim, but with less physicality than Coburn.

With regards to Pronger, let's remember he came into the league as an 18 year old. Big difference when compared to someone who's first full NHL season came at the age of 22. Pronger was still a kid and was growing into his frame. And let's not forget that he was still rushed by Hartford and then got dealt and really blossomed under Mike Keenan. As for Sanheim, he had the luxury of playing his full junior complement and also had a season and change in the AHL.

I want to like Sanheim, but I see nothing special. It's all about results. I remember for years how people continually said "just wait, eventually Coburn will put it together and he'll be the defenseman this club needs" but it never happened. That's Sanheim. He has so much talent, but he always leaves you wanting more and the results seem to be disappointing. 

2 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

Maybe Sanheim is moved. Maybe not.

 

But I see him completely different than the above assessment.

How do you see Sanheim?

1 minute ago, Zzeke said:

 

Something like this would be great, but no chance:

 

1a) Giroux-Couturier-Voracek

1b) Dubois-Hayes-Farabee

1c) Lindblom-Patrick-Konecny

4) Raffl-Laughton-NAK

 

Someone above must go in the trade. Who? Plus Frost? (But, he is out injured long term.) Columbus will not want JVR IMO.

 

Low probability for our Flyers.

The first three lines would be in tact, but the fourth line will look different. I folktales expect Laughton will be one of the pieces moved,  Frost will be one of the pieces and I think Sanheim would be another piece.  I could see Laughton thriving under Tortorella.  I know Frost is hurt,  but he'd be a Tortorella favorite as well. Torts might be old school in his bench boss approach, but he likes offensively skilled players who can skate and are smart.  Frost fits that bill. As for Sanheim, I think the organization can move in from him and they won't be the worse off. Honestly, I'm disappointed that Sanheim hasn't taken that next step yet.  He's got all the tools, but I'm wondering if this is another case of Braydon Coburn in that all the physical tools are there,  but the toolbox just isn't there.  Maybe someone can coach it into him, but I don't think Sanheim is long for here. 

19 minutes ago, Zzeke said:

 

What would you guess the mutual (win-win) deal would be in assets and Cap neutral?

 

And what Center would move to wing?:

Couturier

Hayes

Patrick (No! Minimize his being at the wall.)

Dubois (Who wants to play Center.)

 

(Not moved to 4th line Center where AVs criteria does not fit any of these 4.)

I think if Dubois comes to Philadelphia, he stays on the wing. I don't think he'll have a problem here because he'll probably get to play some center as well. Vigneault loves versatile forwards and that will garner Dubois tons of time.  

I think Dubois is going to end up in Philadelphia. Just a gut feeling. It has Flyers written all over it. 

6 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Wonder who becomes expendable because of this guy?

Sanheim. He's slowly playing his way out of town and in a contract year none the less. 

Gus is trash. Pure trash.  Not a single bit of defensive acumen in him.  Chicago saw it,  Calgary saw it and we're witnessing it.  He's an absolute disaster in his end.  He's filler until the chin can find a viable right handed defenseman.  He won't be around next year and I fully expect he ends up in ether the KHL or SEL. 

1 hour ago, Zzeke said:

 

Agree with ruxpin.

 

2021-22 Season
Provorov - Gustafsson (re-signed as a UFA after Expansion Draft)
Sanheim - Myers (RH)
Hagg - Zamula or Zamula - Friedman (RH)

#7 - Hagg or Braun (Hagg may be taken by the Kraken in Expansion Draft)

 

2022-23 Season
Provorov - Gustafsson
Sanheim - Myers (RH)
York - Zamula
#7 - Hagg or Friedman (RH)

 

Dynamic 6-man defence.

 

Absolutely no to Gustafsson being part of this defense going forward.  He's a stop gap and nothing more. His defense,  which is primary characteristic and function of a defenseman, is nonexistent and putrid.  He's even worse than Ghost. His $3 million salary is better used elsewhere. 

I should also add that if Hamilton ends up pricing himself out of that range, there's always a rescue of Brandon Montour from Buffalo. If there's ever a player who got stuck in a ****** situation, it's him. I think he could be a great fit in Philadelphia.