radoran

What I can't understand is why the Flyers are even looking to make a trade? They are playing well right now. Sure they have certain holes, like any team, but to address those holes, you would need to weaken your other spots. Bourdon seems getting more and more comfortable and confident with his game and when Gustavson comes back, they would be in a good shape, even WITHOUT Pronger. But we just won 7 in a raw, did we not? Where are these trade talks coming from? I don't get it.

They're coming from the Bleacher Report - which I wouldn't necessarily take without a salt lick.

it's statements like this:

If the Flyers were able to shed some salary, possibly Scott Hartnell's contract or another big contract,

That reveal the gaps in the "analysis." The Flyers' top five contracts all have NTC/NMCs on them. That makes the "IF" in that sentence the operative word.

That, and the fealty to Kaberle - who IIRC the Flyers were considering trading LINDROS for backinnaday (to give some perspective on the last time Kaberle was worth squat) and who today is chopped liver who was a hanger on in Boston and a complete bust in Carolina - displays the utter lack of seriousness in this "trade proposal."

Scott Hartnell is not taking a trade to Montreal. Book. It. Neither is Briere, Timonen, Bryzgalov or Pronger.

I *might* ship Carle out for Gill - save some cap space this year and both are UFA - but with Carle taking up minutes and elevating play - why bother?

So was Bryz good or did the team shut down the Caps? I see JVR had two points...did he actually show up or were they lame secondary assists? Voracek still the beast of the boards? How did the young Dmen do?

Bryz was solid and you could tell was upset at giving up the shutout.

JVR had some nice moments, but needs to do a lot more to emerge. I wouldn't call both secondaries "lame" but they weren't "write home to mom now" types either.

Voracek was a monster. More ice time, please.

I'm not expecting a Stanley Cup run this year. But watching these young guys fit right in is a real pleasant surprise, and makes the team a lot of fun to watch.

don't expect it. don't rule it out. Watch the season. Enjoy the games.

Flyers are showing that they did get better, cheaper and younger with their offseason moves. I like it.

I've been keeping track of numbers I notice frequently during games (for good and bad).

14 and 24 were noticeable for the good for virtually all of last night.

Couturier has some developing to do, but his hockey sense is undeniable.

I guess I don't see how they fit Gill ($2.25) or Campoli ($1.75) if they can't fit walker ($1.7)

I'd have had more interest in Spacek.

Gomez is making $7.3M each for the next two seasons after this. ANYONE who picks that up is fundamentally insane and should be put in the Mike Milbury Home for Idiot GMs.

NO on Kaberle. NO NO NO NO NO.

And I don't think that Gill or Campoli bring anything to the table for the Flyers.

Gill is -5 after 29 games. Campoli has played two games this season.

Just don't see the point.

Anyone remember Knuble going off on his team mates earlier this season? From the looks of their collective play thus far after coaching change, I have to say that they are still under achieving. Either that or Mike Green is a bigger piece of their offense than anyone realized. It is beginning to look like they are going to need a roster shake up if they want to get out of the pit they have dug for themselves. The next question is, do they move the only guy on the team that had the courage to say something about it(Knuble) or break up the Caps version of the Center City Posse?

I think this is part of the "trade Semin" talk that's going around - breaking up the Caps' CCP... It's got to be something more than "just" the players because they do have some talent on that team. They're just not playing worth a damn.

Also, Knuble's 9 points in 29 games would earn him a nice healthy sized cup of shutthehellup around here.

One would almost have to be a poster on an internet forum to find something to complain about with this team.

Oh, wait...

They have youth, depth, experience, skill and, it appears, drive. The latter being sorely lacking from the Capitals, for reasons which escape me. Do the Caps just not care any more? They were getting embarassed at home and could barely manage any emotion at all. "Fighting back" to 5-1 with 6 to play doesn't really cut it,

If the Flyers are forced to give Marshall and Bourdon any big minutes in the playoffs, then there will be issues. In December, I'm not as worried. This team was put together to not immediately "miss" many big pieces - the crucial one obviously being Pronger (of course).

They have players who obviously want to win. That's just great to see.

If his decision was between the A and Russia, I don't blame him one bit. His decision though rad, is between trying to make an NHL career for himself by working for it, or taking the free ride in the K. That says all i need to know about Mr. Filatov.

The guy seems to have Daigle levels of dedication and commitment.

@radoran

Yah you right, it could be worst. He could have ran his skate blade across his throat. We are very lucky indeed.

He could have plowed right into him and resulted in potential serious injury to BOTH players.

The person who made the mistake here - as Jackson points out - is Giroux, who missed a check.

That said, I don't *blame* anyone for this. It's an accident. Accidents will happen*.

Again, if you can tell me what Simmonds "should have done" in this situation to avoid any and all contact with Giroux, I'm happy to hear it.

I'm not saying this isn't unfortunate. It's a split-second, bang-bang play. In short - it's hockey.

It's just not anybody's "fault".

* TM Elvis Costello

If someone call tell me what Simmonds is supposed to do here that he doesn't do in trying to avoid Giroux, please let me know

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3AjW0Vc_AA

It's an unfortunate accident. And these situations are always made worse when players are caught unawares - it's like being in a car accident you're not expecting.

It has a concussion written all over it. And this time, in the Flyers' true fashion I must add, the injury was incurred from the Flyers' own player. Beautiful... Only here.

You might check out "Crosby, Sidney" and "Kunitz, Chris" adding in "Penguins, Pittsburgh" just for good measure...

The only reason Filatov is buried in the minors is his work ethic and attitude. The guy has NHL talent. He just needs to get stronger and work harder. he took the easy way out, which is what he does and why he's not in the NHL. What, he wasn't getting minutes in the A? I call bs...but If he wasn't that'd be all on him.

In fairness, even the people in Binghamton don't want to be in Binghamton. In that respect, it might have been TOO MANY minutes in the A...

If it's a choice between making relatively the same money in your home town (speaking your own language) or stuck in a backwater lower central New York town - what decision are you making?

The fact that he couldn't crack OTTAWA's lineup is telling, though. The guy seems to have Daigle levels of dedication and commitment.

Something is wrong with that organization, they can't seem to develope players right except for Nash.

One might argue they haven't done much with developing Nash, either. I'd say Nash was a prohibitive #1 in 2002 (Lehtfourin, Bouwmeester, Pitkanen, Whitney, Upshall, Lupul followed). He was billed as a can't miss goal scorer and he's been a can't miss goal scorer. He's never been much else, though.

Goals per season: 17-41-31-27-38-40-33-32

He scored 40 in his second season. I don't think Columbus "developed" him at all. If anything, IMO, they're sucking the life out of his career.

My feeling on this is that it's karma. Some of are d-bag brothers have been making light of Cindy's injury and now it's coming back two fold with Giroux and Pronger.

Lindros and Primeau far predate Crosby.

If it's a karma thing, it dates to long before now...

It's really incredible how 10 top ten picks have turned out for Columbus.

2000 - Rostisalv Klesla (4) - no longer with team

2001 - Pascal Leclaire (8) - no longer with team

2002 - Rick Nash (1) - duh

2003 - Nickolai Zherdev (4) - no longer with team; um, yeah

2004 - Alexandre Picard (8) - no longer with team; no, not *that* one, the *other* one

2005 - Gilbert Brule (6) - no longer with team

2006 - Derrick Brassard (6) - oddly enough, still with the team

2007 - Jakub Voracek (7) - no longer with team

2008 - Nikita Filatov (6) - no longer with team

2009 - John Moore (21) - in AHL

2010 - Ryan Johansen (4) - still on roster

2011 - no first rounder (transferred to Philadelphia - Sean Courturier)

Hartnell's NTC had kicked in. Richards' and Crater's had not. They could move Richards and Crater without needing their approval. They could not move Hartnell without his.

The Giroux/Jagr pairing with Hartnell is perfect for him. Like many/most power forwards, Hartnell is a product of the line he's on. With a creative C and a solid guy on the other W, it opens up the ice for Hartnell to play his game. He can be almost a forgotten third man as teams focus on trying to shut down Jagr and worry about Giroux.

these are people who habitually lose track of rooms...

@radoran,

I think you read far more sarcasm into my post than I intended. If the Flyers had managed to hold on after catching and surpassing the Jets in that wild game, that would have been three games in a quarter season they came back from 3+ down to win, and that just doesn't happen often.

Regular season, they have the luxury of having a "soft" goalie between the pipes and will still most likely make the playoffs as a high seed. But that's no way to actually try to win the Cup once there.

Bobrovsky may have similar or slightly inferior numbers than Bryzgalov, but Bryz is letting in MANY more soft goals than Bobs and his contract is handcuffing the Flyers. I know you and I are nearly on the same side of this discussion.

As mediocre as Voukoun has been for the Caps, I think I would rather him backing up Bobrovksy for the year and invest the savings in a decent defenseman.

I would not have minded Vokoun at all - as a vet to "bridge" to a mature Bobrovsky, for example. The Flyers don't look for that. They're a quick fix team - they don't rebuild, they "retool."

Not my preferred way, but the way it is.

I don't think Bob has "inferior" stats to Bryz - I think they have basically the same stats both this season and over their careers. Bryz has five times as many games and is the more "proven" commodity. "Proven" is what the Flyers as an organization were looking for. "Potential" has only taken them so far.

Bryz' regular season #s don't bother me - it's how he handles the playoffs. I'm not going to truly evaluate this signing until we have that look (but it was a bad signing for too long and too much lol)

one, i'm a little annoyed to be dismissed out of hand like that. i don't consider my opinion on the topic to be "little more" than a symptom of the city's mindset towards the position. it may be that my opinion lines up with the stereotype in this case, but i believe this particular situation has more depth to it than the people who demanded wregget start over hextall.

two, bobrovsky's career numbers come from a single season, a season that was his trial by fire against NHL shooters over an extended campaign. his performance matched bryzgalov's career average, yes, but that average comes from 6 years in the league, including 4 years behind a bluecollar team whose coach preached a defense-first approach to the game. bryzgalov did not sniff anything over a .910 sv% until his 3rd season, including the year he played behind a stanley cup winning roster (.907).

to compare the two side by side statistically and announce a wash is to ignore all traces of context. bobrovsky did what he did in his first exposure to NHL competition, in his first time playing more than 35 games in a season, behind a team with frequent defensive lapses, with a coach who was as concerned with defensive responsibility as he was with proper grooming habits from scott hartnell. this season, bobrovsky has duplicated bryzgalov's statistical performance in half the icetime, appearing almost exclusively in a spot-starting role, with only 2 starts occuring in consecutive games (and in those 2 starts, allowing all of 3 goals on 56 shots).

if a guy with 60 starts under his belt is able to match the performance of a guy with 330 starts to his name, i feel it is justified to weigh the equation in favor of the kid. jeff skinner only barely managed to top mikko koivu's production last season (63 versus 62 points). do we then declare them equals? or does some context apply?

sure, bob could become steve mason ptII, absolutely. we have no way of knowing how he develops. if he develops. all signs are positive, however...and he has come out of the gate as strong as a guy with a $5.75mil contract. if that's his starting point, doesn't that generally mean his eventual effectiveness is likely somewhere north of that?

this is all academic, as the bryzgalov contract is there, and i'm just crying over spilled milk. the milk definitely spilled, though.

Apologies. I didn't mean to belittle.

I do believe that we as a fanbase have been conditioned to prefer the "devil we don't know" over the "devil we know" - often to the detriment of both. And the Flyers as an organization hasn't helped it by running the goalie carousel faster than the coaching carousel.

I see the Bryzgalov signing as the franchise making a definitive end to the debate. They will sink or swim with Bryzgalov, barring injury. With Bobrovsky available as a capable backup for this and next seasons, why shake it up more? He's proven he can handle 50 starts and put up comparable stats to your #1. But unless Bryz either breaks a leg or gets vertigo, he's the guy.

Yes, he needs to step up his game - but he needs the same consistency and work that you feel - rightly - would benefit Bobrovsky in order to do so. He's not going to find his game riding the pine. Cory Schneider may be splitting time with Roberto Luongo in Vancouver in November, but come April Luongo's getting the call.

Marty Biron's posted a 1.94/.930 in New York - but he's not unseating Lundqvist. Harding's stood on his head in Minnesota at times this season, but the Wild are still committed to Backstrom for $6M for next. Enroth's 2.32/.920 isn't going to supplant Miller.

I just find the immediate topic of "how bad can Bryz get?" the day after a WIN smacks of Mike Schmidt's classic line: "Philadelphia, where you can experience the thrill of victory and the agony of reading about it the next day."

Your mileage may vary. I hold your opinion in high regard despite your prediction about Jagr & Nodl ;-)

imo, if bob saw consistent starts for a while this season, his statistics would be far better than they are now. to this point, he has had no chance to develop any kind of game to game rhthym, and his numbers reflect that. all of which is to say: i don't think putting the season's stats side by side really gives a good picture of the capabilities of the goaltenders. they've been asked to fill different roles, and bob has been handed the harder one (harder to role to shine in, anyway).

How about his career stats? Which are exactly the same?

How about last years, 52-start stats? 2.50, .915 - again, right in line with Bryzgalov's career stats.

The biggest things Bob has going for him is "potential" and "up side" - there is no actual "evidence" to suggest that working him more will result in significant improvement in play. I respect your belief that it is true but, to me the main benefit he has appears to be in "not being the guy who just signed the contract no one likes" and being the "we don't remember the bad goal from last night" guy?

Suppose they'd gone whole hog behind Bob this season, with, say, Leighton backing up? And Bob performed exactly as he has this season but with more starts? And the team was simply the third best record in the league, a point out of the Conference lead? But Bob had been chased in a game and looked a little shaky in another couple, while posting last year's 2.59/.915 (last year at this time, he'd been pulled in an 8-7 loss to TAM (4 first period goals) a0nd lost 5-1 to PIT giving up 4).

Would there still be people arguing that Bob was a disappointment and that Leighton should "get a shot" and would "play better if he played more"?

Yes.

In short, I see this discussion as little more than a continuation of the "why not play the backup?" trope for which Philly fans are famous.

I *like* both goalies. One might have a ridiculous contract. The other an expensive backup. But I like their play. 2.5 GAA and .915 SV% is borderline top 10 in the league among starters. A more stable defense and those numbers get better.

And a healthy Pronger.

And in Pronger's health and Bryzgalov's head have the Flyers put the next five years.

So seriously, what do you think of the signing?

Just yankin' yer chain...I missed ya rad!

Glad to be here, FC - and good to see many of you folkses again :-)

@radoran

He made a couple of good saves, but that 3rd goal was what we'd term a "backbreaker" from any of our previous 47 goalies who all made 1/5 what Bryzgalov is being paid to not let those exact type of goals in, but is, almost every game. The other 3 were good goals, but isn't a "franchise" type goalie, y'know, one signed for $51 Million supposed to wow us with a stop on one of those every so often? He's capable of being better than most, he's just not showing it.

I don't know what else to say here but:

I think the signing was a bad signing.

I think the signing was a bad signing.

I think the signing was a bad signing.

I think the signing was a bad signing.

I think the signing was a bad signing.

I think the signing was a bad signing.

I think the signing was a bad signing.

I think the signing was a bad signing.

I think the signing was a bad signing.

I think the signing was a bad signing.

I think the signing was a bad signing.

I think the signing was a bad signing.

I think the signing was a bad signing.

I think the signing was a bad signing.

I can continue to make this point for the next nine years, but it might get a little old, eh? You might take into account that I have made and will continue to make that point - CONCURRENT with the point that the Flyers are going to play Bryz more than Bob.

I think it was Giroux who let Kassian go, if he watched junior he'd know that's not a guy you ease off on ; )

The best American goalie currently playing is a Bruin. Miller hasn't been that since the Olympics. And Thomas may be the best goalie anywhere right now. Miller played an average game. I still think if we switched goalies last night Philly wins by 3 goals easy. Miller was stopping the #1 offence in the league, Bryz was facing a popgun offence. I hate Russian goalies...play Bob.!!!!

I was going on the Versus hyperbole about Miller. Probably should have used quotes. Or said "winningest."

If you think I'm short-selling my fellow UVM Alum Tim Thomas, I'm not :-)

Now, as I showed above, so far this season Bob's stats are IDENTICAL to Bryzgalov and he's been chased as many times as Bryz - in fewer games.

Career-wise?

Bryz: 345 games, 2.55, .915

Bob: 63 games, 2.62, .913

What's the "up side" to playing Bob? Why the hue and cry to put in the guy with IDENTICAL stats to Bryzgalov - both over his career and this season? If nothing else, Bryzgalov has shown that he can be consistent at that level for FIVE TIMES as many games as Bob has.

"Might" Bob blossom into the next Patrick Roy? Sure, that's possible. He could also dissolve into Trevor Kidd (without the kewl padz).

The "down side?" Destroying the goalie you've just signed for nine years and committed 8.8% of your total cap to...

And gather your own nuts.

Shhh! Be Vewy Qwiet... I'm hunting heffalumps...

A most excellent and puissant observation! It is nice to know the Flyers can routinely give up 3 goal leads and get it back as a matter of course. Not good for one's angina, but nice nonetheless.

It is a good thing the Flyers are the highest scoring team in the league, otherwise they'd be fair to middlin' in the standings.

No one said they could "routinely" give up 3-goals leads and get it back "as a matter of course." I could just as easily turn around and say something hyperbolic like "if the goalies don't shut out every team, the Flyers might have to score more than one goal as a matter of course otherwise they'd be fair to middlin' in the standings!"

Having already stipulated that the nine-year, $56M contract was a Bad Idea, what more would you like?

Here are the two Flyer goalies so far this year:

Bryz: 11-5-2, 2.89, .900

Bob: 5-2-1, 2.82, .900

I fail to see what "playing Bob" gives the Flyers over "playing Bryz." All other things being equal - like it or not - the team is going to play the guy they hired to be the #1 more often than the guy they hired to be a backup. Would I have made the same choices? No.

Yes, "if" things were different, they would be different. They're not. The Flyers signed Bryzgalov to the contract, He's the #1 goalie. They're 16-7-3 with the third best record in the league and one point out of the Conference lead, which they can take tonight, at home.

I'm not asking anybody. I'm just telling everybody. We can argue about Bryzgalov, or we can play 'Here we go gathering Nuts in May' with the end part of an ants' nest. It's all the same to me.

I would hate for the Gordie Howe Hat Trick to no longer be possible.

That said, I also hate to see #45 occupying a roster spot and cap space...