fanaticV3.0

The Flyers could also use a center.  We're down to only 17 of them.

He makes too much money and we do have 17 centers, but I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't be thinking about it if I was running the team. Him and Couturier might not set the world on fire offensively, but behind Giroux, that would be two lines that would be hard to play against.

Richards' ice time vs. the Black Hawks

Game 1:  18:07

Game 2:  16:29

Game 3:  13:17

Game 4:  10:30

Game 5:  16:13

Game 6:  13:03

Game 7:  15:06

 

The 18 minutes isn't concerning, but the 16 is pushing it and the 10 and 13 are ridiculous.  I haven't watched closely enough, but is he playing the 3rd or 4th line?  At a $5.75M cap hit, I might buy the 3rd/4th line guy out if I can't move him.

I think he's playing on the third line. As much as I didn't like the "poor little me" act when he was here (especially towards the end), I don't see how his role is diminishing with that team, especially since they were head-over-heels for him during their previous Cup run.

Yeah, I read it that way, too.   I read it as a coach trying not to undermine/insult his player right in the middle of a Cup run.

Yeah. He's never going to say something like, "Well Mike isn't that important of a player, so that's why he's playing less" EVER let alone during a Cup run.

You really think Sutter gives a rats arse about PR?

You really think a coach is going to be honest in the middle of a PO run about a player who's role as decreased? Get a clue.

Carters game has evolved. He is playing 200ft now, playing in the dirty areas, etc and Producing. He is their second leading scorer in regular season and second leading scorer in the playoffs. Why would they not love him? You would love him if he played that way for the Flyers. 

 

 

 

 

Carter is playing two-ways these days (actually always has, but just much more effective now). Also playing on the PK. The reality is that with Kopitar, Carter, and Stoll (who is just as effective at two way play and plays the same minutes as Richards), Richards is kind of listing in the wind. His cap hit is probably what chaffs most people. You can't pay near 6M for a nice third line two way player (which is what Richards has become on the LA squad). If it was 3.5-4m, nobody would care, but 5.75 until 2019-2020 is a hard pill to swallow. Especially since it appears that Richards all out play has taken its toll on his effectiveness / body. 

Richards is and always will be a better defensive player than Carter. And despite the fact that offense if Carter's forte, Richards isn't that much worse off than Carter. Technically he isn't worse off. He's got 466 career points to Carter's 460.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8470617

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8470604

If you look at their stats as Kings, it's not like Carter is dropping 70 a year and Richards 30. Their points are close almost every year. The difference is negligible. Based on that, if I had to choose, I pick the better all-around player (Richards).

Edit: I know Carter is having a good POs, but that is pretty much the only category he's significantly better than Richards offensively. I will say though that for all those PO points this year, Carter has no GWG.

@fanaticV3.0

 

 I've actually heard Sutter say he's an important player on his team and that he counts on him in many different situations. That doesn't mean they won't buy him out, I think most fans figured Richards body would wear out before that deal ended. I'd be somewhat surprised if they did, but certainly not shocked.

Sounds like a bunch of PR bullshit. He's playing and producing less. If the coach thought that highly of him, he wouldn't be 14th on the team in ice time right now.

We never had the goaltending or d to sustain that kind of run (sc champions). Allot of people think that Carter / Richards did not have much to do with the first cup. They did. They had allot. Not as much as Kopitar / Brown / Doughty / Quick, but with those other guys in front of them, it allowed the Kings to come in waves on both sides of the ice. 

 

LA already had the infrastructure in place. They just needed to fill some wholes. In Philly, Carter and Richards WERE the infrastructure and not the hole fillers. A big difference. 

 

Additionally, Girioux has evolved into a top 5 centermen in the league just by sheer subtraction of Richards. Richards is a workhorse. He has skills, but they are not elite skills. Allot of his accomplishment comes from his effort. As his career has progressed, it seems that work is taking a tool on him. 

 

At the end of the day: 

 

Carter= Couturier (21 y/o), Voracek (24 y/o)

 

Richards= Schenn (22 y/o), Simmonds (25 y/o), Grossman

 

Its hard to say your club has missed an opportunity when one was not really there. By trading two spots, 5 were filled. Not just filled with vet journeymen players, but promising young players. The goalie situation seems to have been solved with Mason. Now d and a winger need to be addressed. These were holes when Carter and Richards were here as well. But at that time we only had one and a 1/2 formidable lines. We are close to rolling three very formidable lines and possibly four (not sure about the VLC stuff and where that will land). 

This is exactly my point.

What puzzles me is people saying they'd never win in Philly. That makes no sense to me. You were close twice with them as young players and Giroux coming up quick. It's the last time you had good depth front and back. How can anyone crystal ball they'd never win?

Love the trades or hate them, but don't make things up to justify them.

Don't lecture people over crystal balls when you were just polishing your own a few posts back with your "Philly looked good and I didn't like it" stuff.

Why does it bother you if others keep bringing it up?

I think the better question is why do people keep bringing it up?

They're been gone for 4 years and we've traded away bigger names. They are nothing special in that sense. People didn't even talk about the Lindros trade to this magnitude for this long. I don't care if they go elsewhere and succeed. Them winning a Cup (and maybe 2) bothers me less than the complaining about it. People are stupid and short-sighted. The only reason this conversation exists is because they won a Cup so soon after leaving, so it people's minds we "blew our chance". It's moronic thinking.

while they were here the fanbase was witness to...

A trip to the ECF

A first round loss to the eventual cup champion

Game 6 of the SCF

Loss in the second round to the eventual cup champion.

 

it's not like they didn't win  a lot of hockey games when they were here and were the "focal point" .

i think we get each other's points though.

 

i would not Ctrl-Z the trades, I don't taste the sour grapes from their success in LA. EDIT: I agree that the hindsight, "what if game" is pointless and borderline stupid.

I also don't feel the need to **** on their time here as wasted and full of terrible hockey/ suckitude , because it wasn't.

The organIzation saw similar levels of "success" during the Lindros, Leclair, Roenick, Primeau, and Hatcher eras. It's not like they took a dead franchise and made them PO contenders for the first time in years. They are good players, but brought nothing new to the team that others hadn't already done.

I think it was here just last week that somebody mentioned LA doesn't seem to know what to do with him? I saw this over the weekend too: http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/28/mike-richards-buyout-candidate/

I know this his offensive numbers have gone down since leaving, but I didn't know how much until I looked. They really have dropped off a lot since his time here. The coach supposedly isn't too high on him, but is he playing that much less? I can't believe how in love with Carter they are. Richards, as much as his personality gets on my nerves, is a good two-way player. That's so much more valuable than a Carter type imo. I know he's making a lot of money, but give me Richards over Carter any day.

What's even weirder is they were so high on him during their previous Cup run.

One place I heard he might land is Pitts, but it's all just rumors right now.

@OccamsRazor.

 

there is a lot of sour grapes that comes from our fanbase about Richards and Carter, no question.

 

 

 

 

A good many folks like to say that RIchie and Carts road the coattails of Brown and Kopitar , which they didn't.  They contributed greatly, LA doesn't get past St Louis if not for the way Richards played in that series. For the Kings the Richards trade put them over the top, Carter provided some scoring punch, because if I remember right they scored like 15 goals from late March into April...(hyperbole used for comic effect) .

They contributed greatly here too (when they felt like it), but what did it get us?

That's my point. Richards and Carter added to a team that already has the makings of a good young team gets you something. Richards and Carter as the focal point get you what we saw over the course of their career here.

LA is a little deeper than Brown and Kopitar. If I was going to say they were riding the coattails of anyone, I'd say it's Quick, Daughty, Brown, and Kopitar. It's a nice foundation and took all the pressure off of Batman and Robin when they landed in LA. They weren't expected to do as much.

I agree i'm am so tired of this i'm not bitter anymore it was hard to watch Richie (whom was one of my favs) Cater, Simon and Justin raise the Cup in LA.

 

But somewhere deep down i was happy for them....and just jealous.

 

10 years ago never would i have imagined in the next 10 years Tampa, Canes, Ducks, LA and even Ducks would hoist it before my beloved Flyers...but it shows that our creator (whom ever that mmay be for you) has a sense of humor. But i'm not laughing!!!! 

I'm not bitter about losing them at all. I don't regret trading the away one bit.

What I can't stand is this crying about it. They're gone. They didn't win a Cup here, were given plenty to work with here, and were not going to win a Cup here anytime soon. We didn't trade away a Cup or any of that other nonsense. Get over it (not you, the people who keep bringing it up).

Pretty much here. He is a NHL ready defenseman. Up to the level of the standard which the Flyers need??? Well i really can't say. Did you come out and actually say that no, but it pretty much says it all when it seems you ignore that he is ready to see if he can break into the lineup.

 

Look it's not just you it that i'm just tired of talking about a 6th 7th defenseman so much this past weekend with other here that in 15 total NHL games they can tell he'll never be nothing more than a AHLer.

 

I didn't know we had so many experts here when it comes to scouting defenseman. I wish some here would shoot Hexy their resume cause he made need to have their expert opinion. So let me say you are not really the focus of all this i'm just tired of talking about a guy yeah or nay so much after only 15 games.

 

It's not like i'm saying he is going to be the savior and lead them to the Cup or something i just want to see if he can help and be a depth guy. That is it so sorry to seem to single you out but it's not my intentions. This will work itself out come training camp. And if i'm putting words in your mouth that isn't my intentions. 

What I'm saying is that they need an NHL ready defenseman and that nobody in the farm system is that. By NHL ready, I don't mean someone who can make a roster. If that's how it came off, sorry. That's not how I meant it. I mean an impact player. If any of them make the team, and it is a perfectly legitimate point to say that it is an if with someone that age and that position, the best you are going to get out of him is 3rd pairing minutes. Kids just don't come out of college or juniors and make that kind of an impact on D. I don't mean to deny a kid a roster spot if he makes it, but that if he does, he's going to be a supporting or possibly even part time player at best. They don't need that. They need a workhorse in all honesty. So if a kid makes the team, that's cool, but they still need someone to replace Timonen and none of the kids are going to do that anytime soon.

I think that hindsight business is a bunch of crap also.

 

Those guys contributions to the LA Kings should not be played down though.  

Carter is 2nd in scoring this year and Richards was instrumental in their first cup, playing big and important minutes.

 

Don't punch me for saying that. 

I can't stand it when someone starts ranting some nonsense about how "another former Flyer wins the Cup". It's such crap logic. That's not to say the team has never made mistakes and there aren't some guys I would want back, but the notion that the organIzation made a mistake because someone who was traded won a Cup somewhere else is stupidity at it's finest.

They did the same stuff here though. RIchards and Carter were always in the top points wise here as well and it didn't amount to a Cup. And for the record, Carter's "2nd in scoring" for LA this year was a grand total of 50 points. He had much better production here. Hell, they both did. Stats wise, they had the best years of their career here. I'm not saying they are bad players, I'm saying they are benefiting from being on a deeper team where they aren't expected to carry the load.

Can't argue with any of that.  I will add one point that pisses me off when those trades are discussed.  People talk like we traded both of them to LA and gifted the Cup to them.  

 

Carter was traded to Columbus, which at that time, was NHL Siberia.  Richards was traded to LA.  2 different trades, 2 different teams.  Carter pouted his way out of C-bus and has thrived in LA.  

 

Argue about the trades all you want....but don't forget they were not involved in the same deal.

 

People need to stop revising history about how lopsided the trade was, yada yada yada....it was 2 trades, not 1!!!

 

(Not implying YOU said that Fanatic..just a general observation)

Carter is seriously one of the biggest pansies in sports that I have ever seen. Nobody likes playing for a bad team, but dude was on Columbus for 39 game's for God's sake. You have no right to mope that much after 39 games.Major league p-ssy right there.

Yes there is. Oliver Lauridsen is ready he'll be 26 next season. He is 6-6 225 and is ready.

 

GrossmanN who is 6-4 230 was 23 when he started in the NHL. His first stint was 8 toatal games in which he added zero points and was -1 in those games.

 

Ollie has 108 games of college under his belt where he scored 7 goals 15 assist for 22 points +8...remember for a stay at home defenseman. He also 189 games in the AHL with 5 goals 19 assist 24 points -5. And with almost no talent on the farm to help him. So he is ready

 

Ollie played last year and held his own he and Luke looked pretty decent in 15 games scoring 2 goals and adding another assist and was even. So he is ready.

 

He hasn't had another chance.

 

But he is ready and camp is the time to insert those so they can throughout the preseason as well and adjust. What you meant to say is that the front office just doesn't want to give them a chance. Which well is another issue all together.

 

Just a little research is required before just assuming because you haven't seen him. Like Gus just said before departing you have to play in order to get better.

 

And Ollie is just once example of the 3 that are ready for a chance in the NHL. But if you would prefer to not let these guy play and let them go somewhere else and get a chance and play that is find but don't come here later and whine that they were never given a chance when they do else where.

 

Noone has a crystal ball you have to play them with some actually talent around them to really see if they can contribute...anything else is merely speculation regardless who it comes from.

When did I say we should deny someone a chance to play if they've proven they can?

Agreed, but then again, all defensive positions are kinda "must have". 18-20 minutes a night is tough to see as supporting. Which is why, I imagine, the Flyers don't tend to break in their own defensive rookies.

You can insert pretty much anyone in the lineup on the third pairing. We've made an art form of it in recent years. I'm not trying to say you will have great results, just that it's not imperative to have great players in your bottom two.

Unless you've got some great depth, no supporting player is going to - or should - see 18-20 a night. If you are fortunate enough to be in that position, that's awesome.

Oh sweet baby Jesus, let this happen!!!

What I find a little baffling about their situation is that they just fired their GM and almost the coach (and still might if that's what the new GM wants). The coach and GM didn't cough up a 3-1 series lead, the players did. That's about as big as an on-ice failure as you can get. That has nothing to do with the coach or front office, that's directly on the players.

They haven't lost a D men Kimmo is coming back...but that gives them 6 Dmen right now. I don't count Gus really casue he wasn't part of the starters.

 

I'm talking about moving GrossmanN. Move one guy off the roster to open a spot for some youth. Then if say Ollie or Alt aren't ready GrossmanN would be easily replaced.

 

They need 6 Dmen that can skate....and GorssmanN is the odd man out in my book. I think Ollie and Alt could replace him if they start the process at camp.

 

At the draft just move him for picks even. Or a prospect if possible.

There is no prospect in their system that will come in and replace anyone as a rookie. Besides the fact that almost never happens with defenseman, they don't even have anyone of that caliber waiting in the wings to begin with.

They need an NHL ready defenseman, preferably an impact one, not some kid trying to prove himself. The kids should not be thrust into "must have" roles, they should slide in supporting ones as they are ready for it.

You are one grumpy MFer Rux. I like it.

I completely agree with you one 1, 2, and 3.

Some see #1 as good sportsmanship, but I have to agree with you it's forced and contrived. Good sportsmanship is doing it when you're not forced to.

I hate calamari, but I agree with you. Wasting food like that just bugs the hell out of me. U Penn has one and it is to throw toast onto the football field. I forget all the details, but I think it's every game they do it.

They were talking about #3 on WIP a few weeks ago as the Flyers were about to begin the Rangers series. Gargano and Ellis, who do a show together, were split on it. Anyone who still gets excited by this tired ass tradition is beyond sappy. Their lack of Cups in my lifetime bothers me less than how often they talk about "the good old days". It doesn't motivate anyone at all.

Yes i know but if they do well it's their own damn fault and proof they just don't learn...you can't keep doing the same damn things yet expecting different results each time.

 

I'm not asking to revamp the whole blueline i believe in changing one part of at a time (first choice to go is Nick), kind of like a recipe...you don't just change all of it at once.

 

You change one ingredient at a time that way you'll know what works and what don't to give you the desired effect you're looking for.

 

But that like i point out to Jack is the problem...its desired effect they are looking for that is the problem. Their philosophy. 

 

The one puck rusher with one BIG sloth mentality that has to go...it doesn't work.

 

You need 6 guys that can skate.

 

You can have big there is nothing wrong with that like the Rangers Marc Staal BIG guy but he can skate...6 guys who can retrieve the puck make a nice simple outlet pass to help with the transition game and keep the puck in the offensive zone.

 

Take some pressure off the forwards some and let them concentrate on offense and generating chances yes they can help with back checking but we don't want them expending all their energy in the Dzone...they'll be nothing left to use to score with....which like we saw creates the scoring issues.

 

That is it...all the good team left have it...the average Dman is 6-1 210 on these team but they all can skate the puck out of harms way if need be.

I don't understand your point here. They just lost 1 defenseman. They're not revamping the entire blue line.

Well, to be fair to the player he's a four time 20-goal scorer then 8 in 48 and 18 in 72 this season. I don't think Columbus had a role for him this season and he still potted 18 in 72. That's certainly not chopped liver.

 

I don't feel that Umberger is a failure in the mode of, say, Ville Leino - but I do think that he's a complimentary player and not a primary focus of a line. There's better uses for the cap space, but they will likely have to eat some to part ways gracefully (and get anything in return).

It's actually 5.

20 in 05-06

26 in 08-09

23 in 09-10

25 in 10-11

20 in 11-12

I don't think he's a failure because like you said he is a complimentary player and not a bad one either. Columbus was stupid if they were expecting him to lead the team anywhere.

  He is moveable. Don't think he ever lived up to his potential. I will be forever indebted to him for single-handedly destroying the Habs and Carey Price in the 2010 playoffs. That series will always be his high point as a pro I'm thinking. What did he score, 7 goals in 5 games in that series.....man, he was red hot. 4.6 mill for a guy who essentially is guaranteed 20 goals is a moveable contract in my eyes. He's overpaid, but not by much....he should probably be making 4.0 mill or so....so not a huge overpayment. Somebody will take him off their hands.....never was fast, but he works hard and has decent hands.

What potential? The guy's a role player. I always liked him, and if he was cheaper I wouldn't mind seeing him back here, but he has never shown to be anything that should lead anyone to believe he's anything more than a nice little role player. Anyone expecting anything more from him is seriously overestimating him.