elmatus

5 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

I guess they kept Lappy so he can translate ? "@#$^ - #@$%%- *$^&%$@@$$% dammit" into, "Nolan you're not keeping high enough when your wingers are below the dots". 

I can fill in that blank for you if we're talking about Therrien or Vigneault. I'm not sure it'll get past censors though.

7 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

I see Kapanen as a valuable long term piece. It took Voracek five years to eclipse 20 goals in the NHL. Kapanen did it in his first full season.

 

If you mean "All Star" in terms of "one of the top eight wingers in the league" he's likely not on that level. But it's a hard term to define with the way the league is playing around with the "All Star" game these days...

So, say we traded Ghost for Kapanen (and whatever it would take for it to make sense). Would your thinking then be to move Voracek as well? What would you be looking to get for Voracek in this case?

Or are you fine with having Kapanen linger on the third line for the next while? And is that worth losing Ghost over, when we really kind of need a top six guy who can shoot right now.

11 hours ago, vis said:

Man, not really sure how I feel about this.  

 

First, I have never cared much for Therrien much at all.  Always thought he was arrogant and if anyone listens to Spittin’ Chiclets, it’s pretty clear the guy is an asshole and not well liked by at least some of his players.

I'm with you. I do not like Therrien whatsoever. I'm ambivalent about Vigneault, but adding Therrien doesn't work me in the right direction personally. I think he's a class A turd.

1 hour ago, brelic said:

Yeah, the worst part is that he's the likely "interim" coach once AV gets fired. But, again, he's at least NHL-caliber.

Is he NHL caliber? Sure, he did well running a high powered Pens team that also made Dan Bylsma look like a hall of famer for a while, but he was also dropped pretty unceremoniously from that position, probably for a good reason...

Aside from that, he's been mediocre to bad the rest of his coaching career. I'm not really sure what there is to like about him. He strikes me as the kind of coach teams just always seem to regurgitate for reasons I can never quite understand.

11 hours ago, vis said:

Really torn rim about this.  I also can’t stand Therrien’s face.  Not looking forward to seeing his sour mug every game.  

So much this.

Y'a une face à fesser. @brelic

2 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

I think I agree with this for the most part. I see Kapanen as top 6, personally. But not "AllStar." 

 

I agree get as much for Ghost as you can, but I think the return shrinks over time as the world slowly realizes he's just not that good. 

Isn't he? I mean, he is pretty good at a lot of things. Plenty of NHL players have solid careers as offensive dmen and pp specialists, which is essentially the role he can play. I'm also not a big fan of trading players when their stock is low. After the year we've had, I would consider Ghost's value as being lower than it should be. He may not be the second coming of Orr, but he's definitely an above average offensive dman in the NHL. If we trade him now, I think we'll have a hard time getting the return he warrants.

Also, what's the worst case scenario here? More than likely he'll be at least somewhat better next year, probably enough better that Seattle would consider grabbing him. While losing him that way would suck, at least it wouldn't mean losing someone more integral to the future of the team.

That or Fletch then trades him -- probably for something similar to what he could get this off season anyway.

3 hours ago, ruxpin said:

Exactly. 

 

I'm not trying to compare Kapanen to either Jake or Konecny, but the potential is there. 

 

I don't know. I'd definitely consider trading Ghost (a 3rd pair, pp specialist dman) for Kapanen.  His numbers this year were comparable to Konecny's and his role was odd.  I don't think I'd just think about it. I think I'd do it. 

I can't say I know too much about Kapanen. I haven't watched him much, nor have I heard much about him. So it's hard for me to say.

I will say this though, if Ghost is involved, we better be getting a top six guy back. He's worth that much in this league. If we trade for someone who caps out on the third and fourth line, it'll mean we've likely lost the deal.

I don't dislike trading Ghost mind you. I've mentioned it here before. I don't know that I'd shop him around mind you. I'm pretty worried Fletch is going to undersell him in the off season actually. I'm not very trusting of Fletch's trade savvy.

15 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

2017/18 was the last time the flyers were in the playoffs.  

 

This is objectively true, but it's been since 2010-11 that the Flyers were at all relevant in the playoffs. 

To add a proper 0.02$ to this though (and I'm sure this is going to fly right in my face!):
 

Part of the challenge is that systemic inequalities do still exist to a far greater extent than many of us believe. It is still very true that a person's birth overwhelmingly determines their likelihood for success. This is notably true of poverty, but it's also true of things like race, sexuality, and gender. These are all factors we have little to no control over at birth, and yet they are extremely sound predictors of future development and success in life.

That isn't to say we haven't made progress; we just haven't made as much as we would all like to believe.

Is there a movement to put us all back in boxes? I don't know it ever went away frankly. Whether it's a movement or just a question of the human condition, we are predisposed to doing exactly that regardless of how much we try to temper that tendency via cultural and social influence. I do think there's a concerted effort to enhance things like tribalism for sure, and I think we are moving in a direction where some seem to believe they should never be challenged or feel uncomfortable in life. That will go away though. It seems a cyclical thing to me.

I should note that I am Canadian. I won't pretend to fully understand the situation in the US, and I won't comment on it. I also work with disenfranchised youth for a living -- people who frankly were never given a fair shake at life, and who are trying their hardest to make sense of a world that seems hell bent on giving them every challenge imaginable. And yes, these are very closely related to poverty, race, sexuality, and gender even today in 2019. 

One of the demographics I've called upon to work with most over the last bit are youth from indigenous communities. The mammoth differences that persist between indigenous and non-indigenous communities where I live are very difficult to overstate. And yet, if you ask people who have very little experience working in these communities, they will very often spew garbage about indigenous people that have no basis in actual reality. They're fictions that have evolved because we have painted these communities as "the other" and treated them so poorly for so very long. We're trying to chip away at these systemic differences now, but many want no part of it at all.

Also where I live, we have a very challenging situation based on culture between our two main linguistic groups -- French and English. This divide has existed forever, but it never seems to go away. Even today, being born minority French where I am will lead to a specific set of consequences owing to that status. Is it silly for us to harp on these differences in 2019? Sure, it is. But these are systemic challenges that linger despite wanting to feel great about how far we've come.

So it's definitely a tricky situation. On the one hand, we absolutely have come a long way, and it's important to notice that we have come a long way. On the other, we can't let that pride in having come a long way cloud over the fact we still have a good ways to go yet. I think at least part of what happened over the last bit is that folks who are born and must face systemic challenges are being told "well, everything is fine now, so why are you complaining?", and then they realize quickly that everything is most certainly not fine, so things blow up.

It's challenging, but I do think it's understandable really from all sides.

1 hour ago, brelic said:

 

Ditto. 

 

This says a lot about the people here - lots of respectful, thoughtful posts.

 

 

Ah, you suck @brelic -- in the most respectful and thoughtful manner.

3 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

Hhhhhhhmmmmm....

Think that dude has a degree from MIT?

10 hours ago, Howie58 said:

Greetings:

 

I think "making the playoffs" would be a low bar for the franchise.  It's been seven years without a playoff series win.  We need that win next year.  Anything less will be a terrible disappointment 

Maybe I'm jaded, but I'm very wary of expecting too much of this roster. We've been hearing the whole "2-3 years from now" mantra for 6-7 years now. At this point, I'm in more of an "I'll believe it when I see it" situation.

Not saying it's impossible. I've been at Hakstol's throat for years now, and I want to believe he was the major problem on this team. But there is also the very real possibility this team has player issues that may not be resolved with just a change of coaching staff.

Anyway, we'll see what next year brings. I like that we have a new coaching staff. That's not nothing. I'm just finished with the high expectations for turn around.

TL;DR: Show me significant progress, or GTFO. I'm done with the feint hopes.

28 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

Johnny hasn't played well this postseason....try and take advantage of that make a swap of Jake for him.

 

I would love to have Johnny here, but I'd be shocked if the Flames ever did this. He's the best player they've had since Iginla. Guys like that don't generally get traded in their prime.

Stranger things and all that, but I'd be shocked.

2 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

So the team's carcasses I was hoping to pick over are NOT cooperating by sucking in round 1- looking at you Columbus and you too NYI....

 

However maybe it's time to move on from the loser  core in Tampa? 

Point, Cirelli, Hedman... while  we're all dreaming of Sasquatch riding unicorns let's quit kidding around and really delude ourselves. 

Voracek and McDud for Kucherov and Hedman straight up.

55 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

They have a little over 6 for next season and Point is an RFA with no arb rights.

 

But they clearly were all in for this year and it's almost bit them.

They have five of nine current dmen coming off the books this season as well. If they sign Point, it likely means they'll lose at least two of their vets on the back end -- possibly three depending on how much money he wants. Sergachev's contract is up next year as well.

Welcome to cap hell, Bolts.

I wonder what will happen to Brayden Point. Resigning him is going to be very difficult given they also have to fill in almost their entire defensive corps and only have 1.5M in space right now. 

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

I'm afraid you are valuing Jake on what he did not what he may do.

 

Just compare their stats both on not so good teams...both on the 2nd line.

At 25, RNH isn't going to get magically better. His point totals in the last seven seasons:

24, 56, 56, 34, 43, 48, 69 (as McDavid's shotgun partner)

Over that time, he was the Oilers no.1 center for all but the last two years. He had every opportunity to grow into whatever hype he had around him when he was drafted, and he really never did. That's not to say he's a bad player, but the numbers don't favour him as much more than a 3C. Note this season appears to very much be an anomaly owing to his status as McJesus' wingman. He's never produced above 56 prior to this year, and seems just as likely to end up in the 35-45 pt range.

Voracek meanwhile:

46, 62, 81, 55, 61, 85, 66 (with zero McDavids)

Hell, Voracek's floor is basically RNH's ceiling with regards to likely production, and V's hit 80s twice. RNH couldn't even hit 80 running with the most talented player in the world.

Maybe if RNH was especially good defensively or something, I could see that having value to compensate for the difference in production, but Nuge is not exactly a perennial Selke candidate...

And yes, I'm comparing them on what they have accomplished, not on any kind of magic 8 ball projection of an idealized potential future. Again, RNH is not some young prospect who has yet to show his true colours in the NHL. He's been around long enough that we know what he's generally capable of.

That said, I'm still fine with trying him at a 2C-3C spot. I just wouldn't want to give up Voracek to get him, as Voracek is the better player imo (which frankly isn't exactly high praise for RNH).

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

Voracek, Hagg and the 11th pick 

 

for

 

Ryan Nugent Hopkins and the 8th pick

 

 

Thoughts??

Not a chance.

I don't mind Nuge, but Voracek is easily the superior player here. Just take a glance at their production totals. It's not even close.

I do think Nuge is a decent 3C, but Voracek can and should fetch much better than that. We may be all sour on Voracek (myself included), but he is a top line player in this league. Nuge is barely top six on most teams.

11 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

 

Oh, I don't expect to get Jones for that, but that's the kind of package I'm moving Gostisbehere for. I could live with Trouba because I think he's really scratching the surface of his potential and that there are issues with Paul Maurice (not the first time I've heard of a player who has had issues with Maurice). I think packing Gostisbehere and the pick, especially to teams that don't have a first in the draft, is very clever and could be a way of getting a very good player back and possibly a 2nd to go along with said player. For instance, Gostisbehere and Philadelphia's 1st for Colton Parayko and St. Louis's 2nd round pick. That still gives Philadelphia a chance to package both 2nd round picks and move up into the first and grab someone. There's flexibility there and more important, it adds a legitimate top pairing right side defender. Picture this:

 

Provorov - Parayko

Sanheim - Gudas

Morin - Meyers

 

That's a very good looking defense with the potential to be one of the best in the league.

Honestly, I don't see Trouba or Parayko as big improvements on Ghost. They would be lateral moves to me. Jones sure, but that seems highly unlikely. Trouba and Parayko are good but not good enough for me to be moving a very good offensive dman and a pick on top of that.

1 hour ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

 

No to Subban. If the Flyers are moving Ghost and a 2020 1st, it best be for someone like Seth Jones or Jacob Trouba. I'm certainly not moving Ghost and a 2020 1st for a 30 year old defenseman making $9 million for the next three seasons.

I would love Seth Jones. I think he's the next best dman in the league, likely as soon as next year. Hell, he may well have been the best this year really. Trouba I don't like nearly as much.

But yeah, I would easily move Gost and a pick for Jones. I cannot imagine why Columbus would do that though. Ghost is great, but Werenski is a very similar player anyway. Jones is the most complete dman by far imo. The fact they managed to get him in the first place was striking. It would seem extremely unlikely they'd trade him now.

1 minute ago, ruxpin said:

I'm okay if he goes there. I've never been sold (though never fully in the "against" camp, either).  I really like a bunch of the players on the Panthers.  But floundering team? Talk about a floundering franchise. 

You're right about attendance. Beyond that though, take 2010 out of the equation, and Philly hasn't exactly fared much better.

5 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

Well we can forget about Quenneville coming to Philadelphia. Looks like he's going to be reunited with Dale Tallon in Florida. I wonder if the Flyers will look in the direction of Sheldon Keefe now.

Quenneville has said he doesn't want to go to a floundering team. He must think Florida is closer than we are to making some noise, which is entirely possible. If nothing else, they have a ton of high talent players who are just starting their prime years at this point. We on the other hand have a bunch of players exiting their prime years and who have a track record of not much to show for it. Seems like an easy enough choice.

I also imagine playing in sunny Florida has to seem appealing for the guy. Makes sense on both fronts to me.

4 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

What a waste of him staying one more year in the SHL on his entry level contract and only playing in a total 19 total games.

I haven't followed this at all. Do you know why wasn't played in more games?

2 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Sure and let's not forget Ratclifffe dude is a puck magnet guy can score goals.

 

He put up 50 goals in the OHL.

 

Now quickly tell me the last Flyer draft pick that scored 50 goals in the CHL?

Oh for sure. We have a number of promising guys without a doubt. I don't mean to sound disparaging about the future. I think we have a lot of promising pieces. I just don't know that we have a Giroux replacement, and in today's NHL, a guy like that seems to be all but necessary.

And in fact, Giroux and co. have not been all that effective either, despite all his skill.

54 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

Because if these guys don't pan out they are in trouble.

I don't know about that. If Frost or Farabee or both become legit top six players, that will be a fantastic gain for us, and it would definitely mean they have panned out very well. I don't know that they'll ever be 100pts in a season good, but it's not like it's Giroux or bust. 

And yeah, Giroux took some time. I still think we got absurdly lucky. Guys like him are very very rare. The vast majority of players in the truly elite club of the NHL are top five picks. In fact, many are top two. There's obviously a good reason for that. Players with that high of a ceiling tend to show it long before they reach the NHL. That's why they're drafted so high in the first place. It's very hard to be an under the radar hockey superstar nowadays (in North America at least).

Now granted, I would love if someone like Frost could become the next Giroux. But I think we have to understand how unlikely that is. It's much like winning the draft lottery but twice in 15 years. That doesn't mean he can't be part of a very good core though. 

That said, Frost hasn't been a part of our current core for the last number of years. If he becomes a top six stud, it will be as part of the next wave, not so much the current one. My comments are mostly about our current core of players and how their window seems to be closing fast -- if it was ever really open at all.

The jury's still out on the next gen. I'm just getting tired of hearing "two more years" every year for close to a decade now.

16 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

I don't think there are as many holes as it's perceived to be.

I do very much hope you're right. I know this is the line I've been preaching now for 3-4 seasons. 

That said, I also wouldn't be shocked if we simply missed our window. That's not to say another one won't open, but our old guard may just not be capable of as much as we would like, and the new guard is likely some seasons away yet.

Also, Giroux is the only truly elite player we have, and he will slow down at some point. It's very hard to win a cup in this era without a guy like him, and I'm not sure any of our current crop will be that good. Honestly, we got amazingly lucky with him. Picks in his range rarely ever end up that good. Some of them will be good for sure, but I don't know about them being NHL elite good. Again, I would be more than happy to be proved wrong about this. It just seems like a very tall order to ask for right now.

So, while there may not be as many holes, some of them do seem larger to me after this season than I would have thought. I really thought they would be taking a solid step forward this year, not another step back -- which I absolutely believe they have.

I agree with you on coaching, and you're right in that a much better coaching staff with a better system might change things in a hurry. Hopefully Fletch can assemble that kind of staff in the off season.

Just now, OccamsRazor said:

 

Sure that is doable. Of course depending on who that player is.

 

And of course the return.

I wonder where they'd start. Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I do not envy Fletch at all. There just seem to be so many leaks in the ship right now. I have no idea how he's going to plug them all up.

But yeah, it might not be a bad idea to move the pick if the price is right. Mind you, I'm kind of reluctant to trade for a help now kind of guy honestly. I would prefer he trade the pick along with a roster player to try and move up in the draft maybe, though it would depend on how high and what he could snag with a move like that.