idahophilly

From IrishBlues blog on Hockeybuzz... Not all is even as close as the best optimist wants to believe... They really are speaking different languages Posted 3:53 PM ET | Comments 0 Last night, I was pointed to a blog entry from Michael Russo at the Minneapolis Star-Tribune. In that posting, Russo states that he has copies of exhibits put forward by the NHL in discussions with the NHLPA illustrating the gap that really exists between both sides. Based on the exhibits Russo shows, the NHL and NHLPA are anywhere from $900 million to $1.05 billion apart over 5 years. The true difference relies on assumptions in growth rates, the "make whole" provision the NHL originally suggested, and the NHLPA's insistence on being guaranteed a 1.75% increase per year from the $1.883 billion the players received in 2011-12. The difference is based on what the players want to receive and what they would receive under the NHL's 50/50 proposal, including "make whole." -- The short version: both sides are much farther apart than much of the media has alleged. -- The short version, part 2: as I said previously, both sides really need to go back to the beginning and start all over. The fact that the NHLPA is asking for increases off the '11-12 amount the players received is questionable enough; the NHL's insistence on an immediate 50/50 split point only underscores the cavernous gap between the two sides. There's simply no way to reconcile both of those positions. Even if the NHLPA were to say "look, we'll take $1.883B in 2012-13 and there forward until revenues catch up" they would still receive a raise in 2015-16 ... if revenues actually grow as projected. What is that projection? It's roughly a 1.25% increase between 2011-12 and 2013-14; that can be anything from -10.0% in '12-13 and +13.9% in '13-14 to -17.5% in '12-13 and +24.2% in '13-14. Thereafter, the league assumes a 5% per year growth rate. Is that realistic? Probably not in the first 2 years, given the damage incurred so far. If '12-13 is lost, it's unlikely we see revenues go back to even $3.303 billion in the 2nd year of games (whenever that happens to be), much less be higher. The more revenues don't recover, the wider the gap between the two sides. Where this really becomes apparent is the percentage reduction that would be needed to get from wherever player salaries stood in '13-14 to a 50/50 split in '14-15; under the NHL's exhibits, it's a roughly 8.8% decrease - but if revenues don't recover, the reduction needed becomes even more harsh. Is it possible the NHL is spinning a story here? Maybe. Certainly we've seen the NHL engage in the semi-covert PR war by putting out positions designed to push its side through carefully placed leaks. If I knew that the NHLPA wasn't asking for increases from the '12-13 salary base, it would be one thing - but Fehr has been pretty clear the players (a) should be paid in full for the contracts on the books for '12-13, and (b) shouldn't have to take a pay cut in any future year in getting to 50/50. However, math just is. You may not like the fact that 4 + 3 = 7, and you may argue how important that result is, but you can't add "4" and "3" together get some other result. If both sides are truly that far apart, I still don't see how both sides possibly bridge the gap that exists. The exhibits that Russo provided only reinforce that belief. It's time to throw in the towel on this round of negotiations. Both sides really need to start over.

Sam Carchidi article on Philly.com today. Worth a read IMHO. The thing I disagree with is I think there should be no compromise, atleast not much. If they don't get this fight out of their system there will be a bad compromise that leads to the next lockout. Anyway, here is the article... Stop wasting our time, NHL. Same goes for you, NHL Players' Association. For more than two months, you have teased us. There have been off-and-on negotiations and hints that your very public labor war was about to end. In reality, you are no closer to a settlement than you were in September. Your rhetoric has gotten older than the Phillies' roster. Your bickering has become as annoying as the guy who whines about his fantasy football injuries. Your lack of progress and your disregard for the fans - the folks who supplied you with a record $3.3 billion in revenue last season - have threatened to put hockey somewhere between badminton and roller derby on sports' popularity chain. Shame on you. You have done a great disservice to the men who built the NHL into such a wonderful game. From greats such as Gordie Howe, Bobby Orr, and Wayne Gretzky, to grinders such as Bobby Clarke, Gary Roberts, and Dale Hunter. Maurice "The Rocket" Richard, who reportedly never made more than $25,000 per season in his legendary career, is probably rolling over in his grave because of the way you have ignored those who came before you - and that includes players, front-office executives, and fans who planned their nights around your games. In other words, compromise for the good of the sport. You are causing irreparable harm to the game, and your mind-boggling resistance (read: stupidity) in hiring a mediator has created an apathetic fan base. And that's not easy to do when you consider the game never seemed healthier (though some owners would disagree) than after the 2011-12 season. Revenue had climbed to an unprecedented level. The Winter Classic had been wildly successful, introducing new fans to the sport. Despite all that, you have created apathy with your greed and you have put the entire season in jeopardy. In 2004-05, the NHL became the first professional sports league in North America to have an entire season wiped out because of a labor dispute. This, then, could be the second season erased in the last nine years - both on commissioner Gary Bettman's watch. Bettman, who on Thursday suggested a two-week break in talks (the sides later agreed to meet Monday), and the NHL deserve their share of blame. You can argue the league set the tone for negotiations with its ridiculously one-sided opening offer: changing the definition of hockey-related revenue and asking the players' share to drop from 57 percent to 43 percent. But Donald Fehr, executive director of the players' union, is not immune from criticism. He's the one who kept putting off the start of negotiations until late June, costing the sides about nine months that could have been spent at the bargaining table. Yes, he has compromised a bit on some issues, but more is needed when you consider that 18 of the 30 NHL teams reportedly are losing money. Granted, some of the losses are because of the ridiculous contracts the teams have given to players. But they at least are trying to put together a system that controls their spending to a certain extent - and still enables the players to average about $2.5 million per season. Tuesday is the unofficial deadline to have a collective bargaining agreement in place to give players time to return from Europe, have a one-week training camp, and start the season Dec. 1. That would make a 64-game, conference-only schedule easy to accommodate. But that deadline is going to come and go, and more games are expected to be canceled soon. If by chance CBA talks are progressing in, say, a month, we may see projections for a 48-game season. Forty-eight games. That's just 58.5 percent of a normal 82-game season. All of which would make the season phony, with the Stanley Cup champion forever having an asterisk attached. As in, "*title was cheapened by shortened season." Meanwhile, fans have started Twitter campaigns to boycott the season if it ever returns. They are sick of being taken for granted, sick of following the labor "news." Their cries, we can assume, are taken lightly by the NHL because the league's honchos know the fans came back in force after the 2004-05 lockout. In the season before that lockout, the NHL averaged 16,534 fans per game. In the season after the lockout, the league's average increased to 16,954. This time, based on the hundreds of e-mails and tweets I have received, I'm not so sure fans are going to flock back if the NHL returns. In fact, if I'm reading this correctly, the owners and players are going to have a lot less revenue to divide because ticket sales are going to drop significantly. Both sides need to kick that around when they decide to meet again.

Ok, so we buyout Bryz right? That's what everyone wants. What's the plan??? Go with Leighton ? Seriously? I'm ok with buying the guy out but you gotta have a plan. Who are we gonna get? It does free up cap space that will likely be nuetralized by a salary cap reduction anyway but assuming we jettison Timo also we might have 4-5 million to play with! Ooops, forgot Giroux needs a new contract. So, that means we are giving up major pieces from our damn near steller group of youth. OK...so... Which pieces are you giving up for another retread from another team? A team giving up a Stanley Cup caliber goalie raises 2 serious questions. 1) that goalie isn't living up to expectations which equals another damaged goods guy everyone will complaining about is short order. 2) Or it will cost tremendous assets going the other way. Oh , hey, there's a 3rd question. 3) It won't save us any serious money (never mind a reduced salary cap). Any good goalie is already in the 4-6 million range anyway... You want Luango??? Go for it and enjoy watching Coots, Schenn and a couple of our latest draft picks playing in Vancouver. Oh, well the canucks deserve a cup anyway and we can enjoy watching ANY goalie we get being ripped to shreds in the Philly press and fandom... I'm ok with replacing Bryz 1 year into his contract (2 now but thats skrewed up) but there has to be a plan... Instead of the absolute hatred for Bryz can someone walk us down the path as to a plan? I'm open to ideas...

Ohh, another more BARBED post from you. Rub you raw. I have been saying what AZIZ has been saying for months. Aziz just is more concise and well worded. Thats why he is a master at it... I posted a honest assesment to Aziz in case he had forgotten what it's like here but I'm assured he is aware. I am however guilty about bitching and moanind about B & moaning. You continue to miss the point of my and atleast a half dozen others arguments on this subject. I have another 2-3 paragraphs on that sir but will end this excersise if you will...

I had no opinion on why you went on strike. I knew you did from another post but figured it wasn't my business. It's a very nice thing you did. However, devils advocate would say you went on strike to saddle the company with expenses they have not even had the oppurtunity to incur yet. If (IF) that company runs into trouble later on I trust you are saying the legacy expenses you saddled the company with for another generation will be waived to keep the company competative and to keep the current jobs, even if not at optimal pay or benefit levels? Or would you prefer the Hostess model?

God, you just are not listening. I have NEVER been on Bettman's side. Read my posts dude and stop getting mad when i hit a sore point. I have not been on the owners side either... Here is the evident difference between us smart ass.... I don't look to fellow workers to take care of me. I don't look for faceless union bosses to take care of me. I don't look for a corp or their execs to take care of me. I look out for myself. Anyone who doesn't is an idiot in my books. If you don't like where you work GO somewhere else. But I won't and have never have told someone else how to run their business unless asked, which I have been. I earned allot of money doing that. So, NEVER get flippent with me unless you want it back my friend. If you are satisfied with YOUR status quo then so be it. But don't blame your boss if you are not. And if they are a-holes, then leave. Those a-holes do exist but it isn't up to you or I to say how they run their business. PERIOD. I know you don't like that but i suspect thats what bothers you about it. And, an FYI, I have a strong reaction to this because I'm sick and tired of hearing this in the shoutbox when I come here for hockey talk, such as it is. I have tried a few feeble "come backs" but I'm sick of listening to the American system being ridiculed by a bunch of people who want handouts... No MORE. I'll leave it alone if you will...

Aziz, you have more patience than me. Those against the the owners are idealogical and won't change their minds. They will find shreds to support their cause. They have a basic mis-understanding of free enterprise and economics based on their pedigree. You may try sir, but doubt you will win, much less sway any side in this matter. The best thing is to let them win and watch it all fall apart while they continue to B & Moan about it. They will. As sure as the sun will come up tomorrow. Your logical and coherant view point is wasted sir. No offense. Idaho-

I detect the good old anti-rich people thing over and over again when talking about unions... Must be some sort of envy or entitlement thing cause I keep trying to figure it out. No one was saying the owners (whether NHL or Hostess) didn't screw it up but it's still their business to screw up if they want (which you almost gotta figure is true... I mean Phoenix!? Really???). Well, the workers are the workers and I guess thats just the way it is. If the NHL doesn't get fixed teams will go under and then the union will be screaming bloody murder over that. The players can give in now and earn some money or not. The NHL will go on at some point regardless. Just the same as the union bosses and execs at hostess will be more than ok and someday another company will make twinkies. But those 18500 workers are the ones screwed... If thats what a Union does for ya then a-ok. And just on a side note, my company asked me to go to meetings and not get paid. When I was done laughing and said no they just stood there looking at me. Then they paid me to go to the meetings and gave me a promotion a couple months later...

Why did that happen?

Well, even if they come back this year which I doubt, it just wont be any fun. Its not a "real" season. I wouldn't even want to win the Stanley Cup in a screwed up year. It's pretty much over for me either way... The discussions here are more about philosephy rather than solutions anyway.

Thats ok because they wont have a team to return to anyway...

The answer to that question is how much do you want a paycheck next week. Given this economy, you give in and go look for a new job at a better company as soon as you can. That's what I did 4 years ago. The big company I worked for kept screwing up and cutting benefits and then no raises. I didn't like it so I looked for another job and bailed on them after 10yrs... But what I DIDN'T do was quit (or in this case go on strike and lose my job) until I had another one lined up. That was 4 years ago and my friends that are still there bit..ch and moan non stop about it. It hasn't changed at all for the good, just gotten worse. And they keep sitting around as if they expect something to change for the better. What part of the past 14 years have they failed to get their mind wrapped around? Oh well....

Well, if you see that the company is in that bad a shape and you decide to strike when the company is trying to fix it then it just doesn't make sense to me. They had to know they were killing it and the company even told them and gave them a date that they would have to go bankrupt. If the union cared they would pony up to the table with offers to help so their members keep their jobs. But as you pointed out, it's a big union and they really didn't care... sad. Oh well, someone will by the Twinkie Brand and recipe... and then we'll have twinkies again, and wonder bread and snowballs and............

The guy who fixes the Twinkie injector blastamax 5000 doesn't have to worry about it now because the Union that he pays dues to just got him fired. Had he excepted 10 dollars an hour he could go to work tomorrow, now he can go take a number at the unemployment office. The execs of the company are gonna bank their millions. The Union bosses are gonna bank their millions and 18500 other people can go look for a new job. The 2nd problem with unions is that many union workers seem to think that the sole purpose of a business is to provide them with a job, benefits and a retirement. That simply isn't true. The business exists to make as much money as possible for the share holders/investors ect... And once again, the guy packing twinkies probably would have prefered to take a pay cut rather than lose his job. The Union failed them big time and on top of that the workers had to pay the union dues to let it all happen. How ironic. It sucks for the Union workers but can you imagine all the non union workers at hostess that are losing their jobs because of a union they dont even belong to. Talk about being pissed off...

Well, that will eventually limit your product selections but I suspect you will one day have a cream filled pie or watch a hockey game...

I agree. I have said it before, push come to shove, it's the owners business. End of story. Look how well things turned out for Hostess.... That was like the union chopping the head off the body to remove a splinter...

These people wont give up their tickets. Very few have....

Well, i have only heard this from travis yost but it sounds pretty solid. That's why i kinda flipped out. I mean "you gotta be kidding me?! We are talking entire franchises, players who may never play again, billions of OUR dollars, and all the people who depend on the NHL games and how many of those business's will be lost and jobs". AND THEIR RESPONSE IS TO TAKE TWO WEEKS OFF???????? F them! Every time i think I'm at the point i don't care anymore they seem to find a new gear for me!!!! So, I'll down shift once again.

Has the insanity just gone to the next level for the NHL? I know there are bigger issues, like the Gaza strip, the fiscal cliff ect... Travis Yost reports ( http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Travis-Yost/You-Wont-Believe-the-NHLs-Latest-Proposal/134/47534 ) that the NHL wants a 2 week break in negotiations but they have to have a meeting tomorrow to decide if they will have more meetings? :unsure: And other articles sound like the players are nuts. Well.... maybe they are but maybe they are just at the point where they are saying no more. And somewhere else a bunch of petulant owners are doing their best "valley girl" imitations saying "like , you gotta be kidding me, the players are really saying no. That's not a totally cool thing.". But the owners are the ones who OWN the frickin business so they have equal say also. Hence the problem eh? And mean while, all the season ticket holders from all 30 teams just go ahead and let the teams keep their money. I have heard the arguments why. "it takes forever to get on the list or it took me a decade to get the better seats"... Folks, you get what you pay for. You get back the effort you put into an issue. Look at our goverments alone! The lesson is there to be learned. But nooooooo! Everyone is gonna keep their tickets for their own reasons but ***** and moan that it's the little guys who get screwed. Well, I know what I have paid for and the effort in caring about it. And I sure know what I have gotten back.

Thank you for sharing... I have been feeling very down the past week but that puts things into perspective. It's always the innocent that suffer the most. I hope the lockout is over soon so buggsy can take his rightful spot along the glass once again...

Have you bought a hockey ticket (NHL) this year? ???????????????????????????

If you are going to make circular arguements we are gonna wind up just going in circles...

I hate to say it but Eklund called this one right... You can't fire the owners. If it was to go really bad the owners can declare bankrupcy and re-org the league in ANY way they want. The players have the choice of playing in Europe or playing for a "new" NHL. It won't come to that though. Because sooner or later the players will realize the very simple truth... they don't own the teams. They are the employee.And what ever they wind up getting in the CBA will be good.

It's facinating to me how you just HINT at saying something nice about Bryz and it's like a lightning rod! Let me try this... I love the way Bryz loves his dog! He is the anti Vick! (see what I did there? - double lightning rod)

Walking Dead is really good... But other than the Boise State Bronco's for me it's a sports desert...