idahophilly

Most interesting. It's occured to me and their are several routes to take in reaching a conclusion. I'll write about it here tomorrow. Little short on time tonight to do it justice...

Sorry, I was typing fast!!!!

Rod, you are so ingrained on the union side there is no talking to you and it's spiraling out of control each day. You are more bitter than ever. Look, the owners started this. Totally agree. I didn't see your shout box post to me from last night until now because of LOTs of work... but, I have no ownership woreship. Really I don't. I have tried to explain the simple economics over and over again. I actually don't like it either but I can seperate my ideaology, my wants and desires and set aside what is fair (because life has made it abundantly clear to me it isn't) and look at the big picture. Taxes- you seriously need to look at tax law. Not picking a fight or anything here. DON'T go by what a return says. You can make anything sound like anything you want. Different subsidiaries, who's budget does profits and expenses go on and I could list a million more, all legal. Some corps NEED to show a profit for one reason while their competator NEEDS to show a loss. Most likely they will find a way... and I'm not talking out my butt here. I have been to tax school. Just don't practice it now... The players were making WAY more money last year than the year after the last lockout that they suposedly lost horrible. The players were fine. But some teams are not fine. Teams need owners. Owners need investors. Investors need stability. When half your teams are struggling and then YOU need a loan for YOUR team the investors are far and few between. Ask Phoenix! Situations like that are business killers. Eventually you just run out of investors willing to take you on and beyond that the valuation doesn't matter if the debt load wipes it out... Valuation- Is not profit. To get that profit the owners/investors have to sell a team. To get yearly operating funds a team has to actually generate positive income or ask investors to cover the shortfall. Once again, if I was an investor i wouldn't be investing in a NHL team. I'm not giving them more money so they can ask me next year for more because they lost money AGAIN. So, back to valuation, which seems to be a favorite of yours. It's kinda like an appraisal. Just because they say your house is 200K doesn't mean you are gonna get 200K. Maybe more, maybe less. But, lets say they are spot on and the Blue Jackets are double what they were worth initialy worth, and lets further assume you can scrape together a group of investors to buy your team. Then walla! YOU made double your money. It does NOTHING for the players! And now the blue jackets have DOUBLED the debt because the brand new owners/investors paid the other guy the "double " valuation. Hmmmm... Seems the Blue Jackets just fuked themselves, to be blunt...That's why Phoenix is a mess. Then there is the fundamental issue in everyone's discussion here. The owners screw up but want to fix it. They know this isn't good. The players say no. Walla! We got another Hostess scenerio. The players actually want to lose their jobs rather than take a pay cut for 1-2 years and then earn BOAT LOADS more money? Yes, that was a real question. In effect, the players are negotiating themselves out of a job, right now. God have mercy on my sole but read this: http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Eklund/EXACTLY-where-I-see-this-whole-mess-right-now--And-how-easy-it-is-to-fix/1/47652 also, the players have given a one time "give in" during these negotiations so to speak but it doesn't solve the problem. This isn't about one time payouts. It's about a new system or at the very least fixing the old one. Failure to do so on the owners part would be very bad and if you think this CBA was bad then just wait for the next one. The owners know this. And the owners have the responsibility to fix their mess for the investors. Period! End of story. The players need to step out of the way, accept the 50/50 because if they are smart they will get a 10 yr deal, even 8 would be great. And, by year 3 will be making WAY more money than they are now if the league can get to functioning the way it needs to. Everyone will win. But the players need to get out of the way and the owners need to realize they need to make "whole " the current contracts, which they said they are willing to do... and finally, we may disagree, but on a personal note Rod, I never said you were clueless. Please extend me the same small consideration... If I have insulted you in any way in the past you have my sincere apologies... Idaho-

However, maybe all the owners should just sell their franchises to 1st stupid idiot to come along and then they can bank their profits. I'd be bailing if I was an investor. I'd do everything I could do to liquidate it... The players can go flip burgers for all I care....

Doubling the value of a franchise doesn't make you money until you decide to sell. Until you do you have to ACTUALLY make money or your "doubling" of money can get real stickey when weighed against the debt accumulated. You don't make or lose money on a stock until you choose to sell it... Same with gold. Same with hockey franchises. You can double your investment but lose money every year.

I didn't say it doesn't suck. I got serious issues with both sides in this ( I just play with Rod and Rad ). Why I say this is a fight that has to happen is you got this problem that took a decade or so to get into (owners fault but also the players , I didn't see them complaining). Now, it seems, everyone wants to get out of the mess in 1 negotiation. I say NOOOO, "it took you 10 years to get into the mess and it will likely take 10 years to get out. 2 analogies I like.... It took the USA 50+ (some say well over a 100) years to get this far into debt but both Presidential candidates acted like they could get us out of it in a mere 4 years... Not gonna happen. And the mess in the NHL isn't all the owners fault. Analogy 2: The owners are giving up contracts like a crack dealer but the players are the addicts buying it. Then the players get on their high horse and say how screwed up ownership is. They are right but that is only half the story and the players need to realize that because right now it's pretty clear the owners are saying "yep, this is broke and we need to fix it" but the players don't want them to... Boil it down and it is that simple. The debate comes down to how and details of coarse but the basic concept is simple. Another analogy would be you got an addict who says he screwed up and wants to get better but everyone says NO and offers no help because he screwed up in the past. No second chances??? I thought that's what we were supposed to do.

Wow Rux! Well done as a good rant... I'm completly at peace with this situation. I'll watch when they come back. I won't spend any money this year or next, but I'll watch or listen to what ever I get for free... The owners will win this. Even if they meet the PA halfway this time they will meet them halfway the next time (2015?) which means they will have 75% what they want. And so on (2020?) See, the owners don't answer to the players. They answer to the investors. They exist to make money and only money and they will. My biggest problem with this whole thing is that people (not talking about you Rux) don't seem to get this extremely simple concept... I'm glad those very well intentioned folks were not in charge of the free market system or it wouldn't have existed in the first place.... I think the owners need to honor those contracts and am not happy with no hockey but this a fight that has to happen. Thats what makes it ok with me...

or I could have gone old school on you and said "Now wait just a centon"....

Thank god for them. The rest wouldn't have jobs.... Why should you Frakkin' care you ask? Answer: because you are not from the 12 colonies nor the Galactica....

Seems like the whole thing supports the Owners position in slashing salaries so the "lowlight" teams can compete. I say slash, slash and slash some more. Then we can get the new CBA done and the owners can spend the next 7 years finding new loop holes... It's a win win.....

Well, I wasn't counting them a NHL employees but they are by default I guess. Funny it would be Phoenix though!

Here is what I know and if anyone has more info PLEASE let me know but it just occured to me. Hostess - Company does bad and on the brink of bankrupcy (and now liquidation) and execs take their salary (millions). Union bosses take salary (millions). Workers are out of work. (NOT trying to start a battle over all that)... NHL - Company does bad. Execs (Bettman and Daly) forfeit 100% of their salary, no one layed off at NHL. PA reps get paid. Hockey players (workers) don't get paid. I feel icky! Bettman was ok for atleast that and I gotta admit it! Yuck! Maybe Fehr did to and if he did good for him also.... Anyone else know...?

Or maybe they are 30 seperate corps and the problem is they are not treating each other or themselves that way. The NHL exists at the will of the owners, not the other way around. And so long as the strong corps keep propping up the weak then it isn't fair. Go belly up or move the team... Thats why the PA needs to recognize their place. And the teams surviving need to recognize they need to honor the contracts they signed. The ones who can afford it will be OK, the other oh well. Guess they shouldnt have been hoping the others would save their ass...

I almost threw up!

lol.....

Oh boy... What a fixation...

I hear you Mad and I'm mad as hell....

I hope he gives a press conference from a planatarium with his white dog.

As I said, I hope Bryz lasts. It will be fun to watch.

It's a players problem when the owners decide it aint worth it anymore and pack up and take their money elsewhere. EVERYONE should really think about who is supplying the jobs here. If the players are that great then let them open a new franchise and let them risk their money and let them be told how to run their business by their employees... I'll be ok with it when they decide to do that... Between now and doomesday, because that's when the players will post up their own money in these affairs, the current contracts should be honored as signed and everything else rolled back to a 50/50 split.... w/ severe new contract limits so this crap doesn't happen again.

Signing anyone at that length is a mistake. The owners are trying to fix that now so not even their stupid asses can do it anymore. Oppps, PA is in the way.... I hope Bryz lasts all 7-8 years he has left on his contract and stays right here driving Flyers fans up a wall, because that's what we , as a collective, deserve...

RRRiighttt..... Almost anything would be better than Bryz. All else is irrelevent.... Seems realistic and a solid solution .... oookkkayyy....

That could work. Atleast thats a plan. Depends on his cap hit but what does that matter anyway since no one knows what the cap is!!!!

Ok....

So simple yet such a great poll... I went with the Eagles! Sad eh?