nossagog

@B21 Interesting thoughts, couple of issues.

1) I don't think that they can buy out Scuds, so we're stuck with him unless we can trade him.

2) I'm hoping that the next GM will be better at BUILDING a team, not renting a team. So draft picks are going to be valuable. To that point we cannot let players with work simply walk away. This means Martin and Fleury this year, if they are NOT in the long term future, need to be moved NOW when they have worth to improve the long term prospects of the team, and not just lose them at the end of next year. Look at this year, Orpik had value and we're going to let him walk for nothing(maybe someone will give us a 3rd or something for the rights to him before the deadline, not good enough)

3) Despres, If DFB stays, he goes. I don't know why but he has never been given a real shot with DFB, For Despres' sake,

4) Defensively, we're not tough enough at all. Letang, Matta and Martin are great puck moving defensemen, but they have a hard time moving players from in front of Fleury. Niskanen, same thing. This is one of the reasons I think either Letang or Martin are going to go. Move Bort up, Keep Engellend as the fifth so that we can have a more physical presence at the blue line. Despres can step in soon if we can find someone to take up Scuds contract. Give Harrington another year to season.

5) DFB! The system needs to change. We need a stand up defense that will NOT back in at our blue line. We need a breakout that DOESN'T depend on stretch passes by the defense. And he just has a very BAD way of treating young players, he simply cannot coach them(Matta is the exception, not the rule).

With rostered players, we have about $15M of cap space play with. So, in the end, my suggestions:

Try to move Letang now before his limited NMC kicks in(Savings $7.25M/year, and resign Niskanen to a 3-5 year deal. $5.5 is way too much, he's had a great year, but I'd say more in the $4M/year range, if he wants more, thanks for your time. Also, resign Engellend for a minimal raise, maybe to $1M a year, we need his physical play. I really like Tanger, but I never thought the contract was good, especially now with the whole stroke thing)

Possible defense:

Martin-Despres(He's ready DFB, he's ready)

Niskanen-Matta

Bortozzo-Engellend/Scuds(Sorry, I just don't think we'll find a taker for Scuds, and Engellend was not a defensive liability and provides physical play)

Niskanen/Bort/Scuds can rotate in on the PK. Martin/Matta the first pairing on the PP

By moving Letang and resigning Engellend/Niskanen, Pens save about $2.25M. Which will give me about $17.25M to fill in the 6 forward roles.

On Offense, I'd try to retain Goc, I think he's a servicable fourth line center who can also eat up PK minutes.

Kunitz-Crosby-

Neal-Malkin-Bennet Line set no additional cost

Megna-Sutter-Dupuis Offer Sutter $3M,megna will probably be $1.25M

Adams-Goc- HarryZ Offer Goc $2M a year,$800K

Hummm, I spent $7M, which leaves me $10.25M in cap space. Hummmmmm, what could I do with that? I still have $10M to spend on a top line winger and a bottom like physical presence.

Top PP would be Malkin-Crosby-Kunitz/Sid'snewwing Matta-Martin 2nd unit Neal-Sutter-Bennet Niskanen-Despres

PK would be Sutter-Dupuis-Goc-Adams

I'd rather see them move Adams, he's too old and we need more physicality, but he has pictures of DFB that keeps him in the lineup.

So in the end by moving Letang, the Pens COULD afford a top line wing for Crosby, and add another physical presence on the fourth line.

Oh yeah, did I mention that we need to get rid of DFB.

Yeah,  Lemieux might be jealous.  

Maybe he'll buy a house in the 'burgh and Crosby will move in the basement?

HF, that's just wrong man, just wrong

@Polaris922  The good....

 

 Pierre takes a lot of heat for many things, but I honestly think his knowledge of current and up and coming players is unchallenged. The guy is a walking encyclopedia for all things hockey, he would have an immediate advantage assessing players values.

 

    The bad....

 

 If this happens, you Pens fans will feel the wrath of humiliation x 100 from every breathing Flyer fan...so there is that...LMAO

Dude, infinity x infinity is still infinity.  So you're basically saying no change.

Don't think it will happen(he was a great friend to Ray Shero), and don't want it to happen.    No experience in the front office, and questionable credentials in his coaching career.   Please Please Please Mario, don't do it.

What happens if someone offer sheets Despres? not saying it will happen, but if a division rival wants to handcuff the pens salary even more or steal a decent prospect who looks like he will at least reach Ehrhoff level?

 

Honestly Jammer though, I cannot see the pens affording Vanek. They have 16 million to play with and need to sign 6 forwards and 2 defensemen. Vanek is almost certainly going to command 6.5-7 million.

Joe, here's the thing, I like Despres, but he has never been given a chance by DFB.   He's been in the lineup, and then benched or send down for making minor mistakes when bigger mistakes are being make by DFB's veterans.   I feel for Despres, but I have this feeling that he will never get a decent shot while DFB is coaching this team.  If I'm Despres, I'm hoping that someone makes an offer, because I think , sadly enough, that the Pens will let him move if DFB has any say in the matter.

Bummer, no wonder he was starting to look off.  I wonder if that happened in the playoffs or during the regular season.

@nossagog  I think the easiest way for the Pens to improve is trading Letang. This would make the most sense. It's a position of strength, tons of youngsters who can step in and at least partially replace his production. Plus, whoever replaces him would make the Pens a stronger defensive team. Not sure how his recent injuries and cap hit would scare away potential suitors.

 

  If Letang can't be moved, the next best thing would be trading Neal. He would fetch a nice package in a trade scenario. Perhaps they deal Neal to free up cap space for their real target, Vanek. Thomas plays a game centered around possession, one of Sid's strong points. He would be a perfect fit. Not sure if Vanek is interested in going there, but really....how many star wingers would not give their left nut to play with Malkin and Sid on the top pp?

Jammer that may be, I was trying to stay on topic with Neal, and point out his benefits and limitations.   As you can see from some of the off track stuff in the thread, all people need is a little excuse to hijack a thread into something else.

I'm sure there will be loads of speculation on who could/should go for the Pens as with any team during the off season.  But here let's look at the case of James Neal:

6'2" 215

Age next season: 27

Cap hit $5M/year through 17/18(31 years old will be next contract year)

Plus:

40 goal scorer once, but was on pace in strike year

Large frame

Plays with and edge

Great one time shot on the Power Play

Good vision to get to the open spot for shots.

Minus:

Ineffective without Crosby or Malkin centering line(did not even notice him in the Rags series when they combined Sid and Geno).

Sometimes goes over that edge on hits.

Lacks defensive presence, can't work the PK.

Pitiful on faceoffs(and hasn't made any effort to get better)

Shoot first mentality(Ovechkinitis) that doesn't help team mates.

At $5M / year, I hopped that he would become a little more rounded player,  who can generate offense on his own.   Neal has not shown that he can do that,  He NEEDS to have a Malkin or Crosby to mask his presence so he can open up for one time shots.   His effectiveness in the playoffs was completely eliminated when they went two headed monster, and moved to two defenders on the PP and took him off of the halfwall for the one time shot. He was not a factor.

His defensive game has not gotten better through the years.  He'll make the big hit, sometimes too big, but he will get outworked along the boards, and doesn't use his frame as much as he could.

In the end, I'm looking at him as a lower top tier offensive player that doesn't seem to want to put in the full effort to become a complete player on the ice.  At 26 years old, he does not have the drive to change his game to move in that direction, which is a shame.    He has the size to make a difference, but wants to be the sniper and will not go to the front of the net for screens and working mans goals.   

But . . .    I think a different coach/system would work better for him.   If Bylsma goes, I would like to see who the new coach is, and see if he can change his game to be more physical, and be more of a net front presence without the puck.  If Bylsma stays, then he's going to be the same player, and I would not cry if they could get a decent ROI.

Well, B21 is an apologist

 

(joking of course)

 

I would put B21, noss and Polaris as the leader of the pack in terms of level-headed Pens fans... I apologize for any confusion.

Wait, I'm using my logic I learned in Philosophy 101 back in college here

A: B21, noss and Polaris are level headed Pens fans

B: B21, Noss and Polaris are ALL the Pens fans on this board

therefore

C: All Pens fans are level headed

Murray, thanks for clearing that up for us.(Yeah I probably skipped something there, but being a Pens fan, I just can't see it. )

i think that line was better than the sum of its parts,  just like the way lenio, briere and hartnell were for the flyers a couple years ago.

Kennedy has some wheels and was excellent on the forecheck and had excellent puck pursuit, Cooke well he's a douche but he has some speed and for whatever reason played well with Staal and Kennedy.

I hated that line but admired the way they kept the pressure up, they would start buzzing around the offensive zone and would just wear bitches out.  there is nothing like that on the last 3 versions of the Penguins.  the top two lines are good to great but there is no threat beyond that.

 

i still stand by my assertion of Crosby's brain injury changing him for the worse.  Time will sadly tell on that, but I will concede he alone is not why the Penguins do not win the Stanley Cup every year.  It is folly to think any team should win the cup every year, maybe a team can but to win that trophy is the most difficult thing to do in professional team sports.

Couple of things from several posts and threads. 

The Pens over the past few years, have become less and less physical a team as they were in the cup years.   As much as people hated him, Matt Cooke made life miserable on other teams stars, who fills that roll now? The Pens used to have a third line that was grit, who went out and played physical on the other teams top line. Cooke and ManBearPig went out and banged away.  They took it to the OTHER teams top line.   And they had a fourth line headed by Max Talbot, who was very the same, and came in at times to protect Crosby and Malkin from the other teams "grit" line.

The Pens grinders the past few years have NOT had that edge, other than Glass, there is no one down there who can be said to cause the other team pain.  That's a big thing for a team.  They've tried to get faster on the bottom 6, and have forfeited their toughness. 

I was very dissappointed in DFB during both series that he did not dress Engellend on the fourth line to take care of some of the stuff that was being done to Crosby.  Look at the cross checks he endured from Dubinsky, and then Staal basically using his head in games to crosscheck and elbow.   I've said in another thread that in general this playoff season, I've seen so much stick work and crosschecks, its like the NHL doesn't care any longer.   Did any one else see Suban blatently cross check the player on the ice in the head with about two minutes left in the game last night? And not even a mention on the broadcast  And there is NO outrage from the NHL, Players or Announcers, even with all the concussion stuff.  Someone like Engellend should have been in the lineup to return the favor upon them.  If the officials are not going to call this stuff, so be it, let's jump in the pool too.   

I said this in another thread early in the series after the one Staal incident where he crosschecked Crosby in the head.  Could you imagine what would have happened to Staal if he was playing the Oiler's back in the day, and he'd have done that to Gretzky?

The Pens miss that,   Cooke would have done something, maybe legal, maybe not .  Talbot would have done something, the old Orpik would have done something.  You can't allow players to simply abuse your stars.   Crosby held his temper much better this year than in past ones, but he shouldn't have to. The Pens need to fix the bottom six by adding grit, not speed. (By the way, crossing over to another thread, imagine if they could unload Letang and Orpik, the money they would have for a powerfoward to play with Crosby who would throw his weight around.)

It is not just Starkey anymore Brelic...   Have you watched NHL lately, the game analysts and other reporters are starting to question the same things.

 

@B21 - I am in no way a Crosby "hater" as you like to say when anyone claims anything remotely negative about the man.   I made it pretty clear in a number of posts if you care to research that (a) he is undoubtedly the best player in the world and (b) that I respect him as a Player.   I disliked Messier and Mario yet I think they are some of the best players ever to lace them up.  

 

What I find funny is the blatant love and the "do not wrong" attitude that goes aong w/ your fellow apoligists.   It is pretty simple to me:  if he would focus on the game and less on the BS I think the Pens would be in a different position.   Lately, his stats in the playoffs speak for themselves.

 

It is not hate but solor it anyway you want.   I think you need to go back to the beginning of the year to see how Flyers fans pile on our very own Captain.

Cudo's to you guys.

Problem with a lot of Pens fans is that so many things over the years are blown out of proportion that it becomes almost knee jerk sometimes to defend anything that is said about him, because most times it comes from the "mountain from molehill" groups of fans.  

might not be so bad, Pouliot, Doumolin , and Depres could make your defensive unit better with their mobility, and Depres isn't a sissy.

 

If there was a guy to "let walk" i  think Brooks was / is it,  his game has eroded to the point where is intangibles of toughness and leadership don't increase his value,  how much of his declining play was injury ? 

If its due to an injury, he's been injured for  a couple of years now.   He still makes that big hit every so often, but the day in and day out physicality so no longer there.

yep, also why would Pgh trade him , or entertain the thought ? in the right mix of players a guy with his abilities is very useful. 

And that is great for the regular season,  a mobile fast moving defenseman, which the Pens have been thriving at. But once the playoff's come, that is not as much  factor.  Once the defenses tighten thing up, and the systems are in full force, it much easier to neutralize players like him.

Sadly, in the end, I look at the money that could be freed up by Orpik and Letang, and think with all that, I can get a decent top shelf defensive player, or a pair of physical wingers that can play on the 1st/2nd lines.    In the end, with all the talk about the need for speed, the Pens really need to get physical up front, and not just on the fourth line that gets 6 mins a game.

Do you really believe there is anyone out there foolish enough to take on Kris Letang's salary? If so, I think you picked the wrong day to quit sniffing glue........

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WAwuSK36Gw

I really hate agreeing with Flyers fans, but FlyerRod  is correct in this case.  Any attempt to move Letang would be almost impossible, and he's the contract that really hurts.  I don't mind either of the contracts for Crosby or Malkin,  but the Letang contract kind of bother's me. 

At the deadline, I wanted to see them move Orpik, while they had the chance to get something for him, and they didn't. Now they'll get nothing.

Have I got a deal for you:

 

VLC, Hartnell for Malkin and Kunitz?

 

Seems legit     

Really, Seems to one sided, we would need more.  Toss in Hal Gil too and you have a deal.

First off, the basis for this thread is an article from Rob "I can say anything that may or may not have any basis in truth and call it fact" Rossi, so take anything comments in this article that mentions "Inside Sources" and "Sources close to the Penguins" as possible fiction.

Really, "inside sources" tell him Bylsma will be fired? EVERYONE in the hockey universe, including Bylsma, have said he's probably gone if he lost this series.   His "Source inside the Penguins" may well have been the lady cleaning the locker room for this precious gem.  I know that its hard to listen to us Pens fans, but we've been asking for him to be fired for two years, he's great at overall design, he's awful at adjustments. Being patient and "getting to our game" is not an adjustment when things are not going well.

Shero?   Who knows there.   His drafts have actually built up alot of talent on defense for the Pens, the problem is he hasn't had the same luck at forward.  His downfall could be his unwavering faith in DFB.

As for the rest? Players not liking the long meetings or practices? I'm not sure about that, how come we've never heard about that before? This sounds like justifications for getting rid of him in stead of getting rid of players, which again hasn't had any basis of fact before this.

The criticism of Crosby and Malkin, and their play on the ice,  is completely justified.  They're the star players, they need to produce when the game is on the line.   The Pens scored 3 goals in the last three games against the Rags, Unacceptable. Boston series last year, same thing.   They simple have not figured out how to adjust to the playoffs, and are eliminated from the game.  Some of this we Pens fans have blamed on coaching, and the lack of adjustments that are made, but in the end, it comes down to the players.   Crosby admitted as much in interviews after elimination, accepting the blame and putting this on the Players, not the coach.

This team needs Tortorella.

No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No

x

No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No

=

No Freaking Way

I think I would poke my eyes out if that Fonzie look alike were to come to the 'burgh.   We already have a defensive system that doesn't seem to win in the playoffs, and Fonzie has a habit of taking top talent, making them useless, and boring the hell out of the fans.   Well at least just ON the ice, off the ice his whining amuses fans, but its usually OTHER teams fans.

Kudo's to the Rags, they stuck with it, made the right adjustments, and played a great team game to win the series.  In the end, they played more like a team than the Pens did.

 I predict this game may be a really frustrating one to watch.  I would expect loads of neutral zone play with hooks and holds from both teams going uncalled which will cause both teams fans to complain about the officiating.  If the Pens don't dump the puck deep and retrieve and continue to try to skate through the fence set up at the blue line, it could be a long night for the home team.   Hey and how about a little urgency on the part of the power play tonight.

Here's how I see it.  The Pens have done a fantastic job at building a phenomenal regular season team.  They've put in place a system where every knows their role, and things don't very much.  Their AHL affiliate plays the exact same system, and players can come up and down, and they fill in immediately without any learning curve.  They have two start players, that in the grind of the regular season, where teams aren't going to drop to block shots, and not have an all out 100% attitude every night, are going to thrive.

They built a poor playoff team, who can't adjust in game let alone between games because they have a coach who only knows "the system". After two games, the other team figures out where the area passes are going to go, when the reverses are coming and how the entry will be made because its always the same.  The Rangers are having a field day now because they understand the Pens system, and its still not changing.   They have also built a team that does not understand that the rules change in the playoffs, ou can hold, hook and interfere almost at will, you can set 3 or 4 guys across your blue line to slow down the entry while the lone defeneman retrieves. But no, let's keep backing in, with our system, and not take the chance of drawing a penalty.  

The ONLY adjustment DFB has made was to put Malkin and Crosby on the same line since game 5 of the Jackets series.    It created an immediate impact in that series, and had good chemistry in the first 4 games of this series.  But the Rags have adjusted, they've loaded up defensively against the "big" line, and have neutralized them.  At the same time, without a center to feed him, he's removed all effectiveness of James Neal, who by the way is not even on the top PP line now, which is where he scored most of his goals this season!

But my biggest problem, No playoff toughness. He has provided NO protection, whatsoever, to Crosby.    Can you imagine what would have happened to Marc Staal in the day if he had crosschecked, punched and elbowed Gretzky in the head in Edmonton? Mr. McSorley's fist, meet Marc Staal's face.  I give Crosby credit, until the spear in the last game he has not retalliated to this stuff, I think he was waiting for one of his teammates to step in, because you don't want Crosby in the box.  But no one has, so the Jackets, and now the Rangers, are hitting him legally and illegally all they can, because its not getting called, and no one on the Pens has stepped up to confront them.   I have no explanation to this.  I called for Engellend to be in the lineup after game 2 to put an end to this stuff, hasn't happened.  Pens can say they are a team all they want, but if no one is going to step up to protect their prime assets, they are in big trouble.

I said before the playoffs started, I did not think they could win the cup this year, just not the team to do it.  If they're not going to win the cup, I'd rather see them lose this round instead of in the Conf. finals.  If they lose to the Rangers, it should be the end of DFB, if he makes it to the conf finals, they may keep him on no matter what else occurs.

Game 7 here we come.......give the Rags credit.  Pens have got to be feeling the heat .....  Should be a heck of a game. 

 

So can the Rags win game 7?

Right now doc, anything can happen, the pens are playing a purely outside game in the offensive zone, and don't want to work the front of the net. Same on their power play.  They need to want it.  DFB also needs to break up Crosby and Malkin, its just not effective, and its taking Neal right out of the game. 

Solid game by Lundqvist, he held them steady throughout.   Pens need to get to the front of the net more, the perimeter game is not getting goals.

These officials suck

Pol, you just have to laugh.  Out of all that, Crosby gets called for crosschecking, Kunitz for roughing. and Boyle for concealing the puck? 

The Rangers do play differently with the lead... they start to clog up the neutral zone and they, as a team, do do a nice job of getting their sticks in passing lanes and "the way" .

 

and the rags  finally got the idea that pressuring the defense physically can work vs the Pens,  they're better at keeping their composure, but they can be rendered less effective with a physical forecheck.

 

I also thought they took a lot of liberties with 87 last night, and that worked too, he's been good at keeping himself in check so far,  I though he had turned a corner when he didn't rise to Dubinsky's challenge vs CBJ but that was mostly (mostly) whistle to whistle, the Rangers started in really roughing him up anytime he was on the ice and that does bother him.  

 

I still think the Pens show up either Sunday or Tuesday and advance though.  I don't see the Rangers being able to maintain the type of play from game 5 for 2 more games, it is not in their character. 

Funny, as compared to other games, I actually thought they were quite mild on him last night.  Not one single crosscheck or elbow to the head.   It will be telling though to see if he can keep his cool.  I realy wanted to see them put Engellend in the lineup on wing last night, and have him return the favor to Staal.  Funny how the Rags got cocky and chirped away as the game went on.  They tried to goad him a couple of times. 

LOL -

IF the Rangers continue to play inspired hockey as they did in Game 5 the Rangers may just be the better TEAM or at least maybe the better coached team. 

One word, DFB.   Honestly, how can you come into an elimination game, and come up with a game plan to sit back, and just try to counter attack.   The Rangers dictated play, and the Pens didn't change their game plan at all.  They gave the Rangers life, when they had none the games before.    Could turn the series, always dangerous to mail in a game in the playoffs.