JR Ewing

Oh I know they would. His Dad pitched for the Tigers for a decade.

Last year he had among the worst games I ever saw by a blue liner against my Wings. He tipped one into his own net, and then in overtime Dats turned him inside out TWICE on the same play as he scored the game winner. Brutal game.

But that is not who he is, he can play the point in a pinch has a great first pass and plays the corners well. Open ice is his kryptonite, one on one I have seen him freeze up since his college days. A dose of confidence is all he really needs. I actually sat with his Dad when Jeff played for Michigan State once back in 2008 or 2009 quite by accident and it turned in to a delightful evening, I will always root for this kid.

Nice stuff. I remember Dan Petry well: threw a lot of innings for a pretty good Tigers team. They broke my heart in 1987.

It's pretty cool that you ended up getting to watch Jeff with him.

JR

@JR Ewing Great points on the Oilers defensive d-men. When you put the list down, I had forgotten a lot of the great d-men they had. Was the Steve Smith goal into his own net the toughest thing you endured as a Oilers fan, I can't imagine anything worse...I wasn't a fan and I sat there for minutes...just stunned.

For me, summer 2006 thru the end of this year has been tougher; watching years of big game hunting and shunting of NHL players without thought of bringing in replacements has been worse. Watching Steve Tambellini ineloquently and hapharazardly bumble his way around and mismanage nearly every step was worse. Worse than Steve Smith's own-goal. Worse than watching the Rangers and Kings pick the Oilers bones.

"Kevin Lowe, Charlie Huddy, Lee Fogolin. Solid defensively: Jeff Beukeboom, Craig Muni, Steve Smith, Randy Gregg." That is a nice list. Some of the most underrated d-men in league history right there. Well, Muni was marginal (but threw huge hits) but the others were wicked good at what they did. Like you said, it was the 80's everyone played 7-6 games it seemed. Lowe and Huddy never really got the credit they deserved....tough as nails and very good in their own zone.

Exactly. There were some good (not great) players back there who could definitely play a good defensive game; Huddy and Lowe in particular.

JR

And Kurri

With Brodeur that is usually the point I bring up when people decide to go with pure "He has the best wins + shutouts"

Yes the Oilers were not all that bad in their own end. Coffey was pretty bad, and sometimes Gretzky, but Gretzky tilted the ice the other way in a way that makes him transcend the need for 2 way play.

Kurri: you're very correct, and I feel silly for not mentioning him. heh

JR

@jammer2

Absolutely; those things are all true.

JR

Agreed Nick Schultz has to go. His trade from the Wild for Tom Gilbert was the proverbial trade that hurt both teams. Lots of bodies here so they do not have to rush either Nurse or Klefbom but very average talent other than the real Schultz. If they are going to deal one and I have read rumors saying so then I would love to see the Wings try to pry away local boy Petry if possible. His Dad would be proud....

Provided the return is right, damn near any player is available. In Petry's case, he's a viable NHL defenseman who can do a little bit of everything and has a very cap friendly contract. I imagine if possible, the Oilers would rather keep him.

JR

@jammer2

That very well could be. I certainly don't know what Feaster intends to do, but I think there's indications in what he's done so far. We know he's gotten rid of the viable talent on his roster, and the only players left who are really being paid are the guys with NTC or NMC attached to their contracts.

However, Grabosvki could land there if he's willing to sign for a low enough figure for CGY to remain interested. Tanking teams don't usually like to spend a lot of money to lose, after all.The big question mark in this is what he's willing to take. I have no idea.

JR

Very good deal for the Flyers; Couterier brings some nice things. Though, to address something I saw in the shoutbox on the main page: you can't really compare the dollar figures between a 2-yr old RFA and a 29-yr old UFA... They have completely different types of leverage when negotiating.

JR

@hf101 Now that Calgary is mentioned, how could they *not* sign Grabo, he should be their best center....that team has had a hole in the middle for decades, since Jim Peplinski and the boys were young. He's not the legit #1 guy they really need, but he's better than what they have now.

Calgary's in full rebuild mode right now (you know, the kind that Jay Feaster said they would never do) may not be interested in Grabovski.

JR

Agree. In this case, though, it was done to mimic your "not to overly sarcastic" in your post I was responding to. I thought what you said was dumb (not because YOU said it. Clearly, you're not the only one saying it).

But to your point above, I sometimes do it deliberately. It's harder on this site because of the tone and also because of the censor, but I'm not above "no offense, but you're a dumb ass" or "You may be the dumbest person I've ever met. No offense."

I just find that funny.

No offense.

No, I definitely hear you. Text doesn't always convey meaning. For what it's worth, I wasn't mad. I've been doing this since the days of dial-up BBs, and pre-web usenet discussions on rec.sport.hockey, and I have yet to get mad during one of these.

JR

Now that we have that settled.

JR

With the Grebeshkov signing a couple of days ago, the Oilers have something like:

Smid (L)

Petry ®

Ference (L)

J Schultz ®

N Schultz (L)

Belov (L)

--------------------

Grebeshkov ®

Larsen ®

--------------------

Potter

Klefbom

Marincin

-Anything which doesn't force Klefbom into the NHL lineup before he's ready is good.

-I wasn't really sure how to sort Belov and Grebeshkov. Grebs has played (well) in the NHL before, but didn't have a very good year last season in the KHL, and Belov is a little younger and was the best defenseman in the league. Both can play a puck moving game.

-I think Nick Schultz needs to go.

-I don't know if the Oilers plan on keeping Larsen around: he does bring what Craig MacTavish is clearly placing a premium on: an ability to move the puck.. Thing is, we also don't know if the Oilers picked him up in the Horcoff trade because they wanted him or if Dallas wanted some salary to go back.

-Potter is on a 2-way deal, so if anybody's going to OKC, it's him.

-It seems that, based on his signings, Craig MacTavish doesn't place a high value on slow d-men who can't move the puck (the Fistric types).

JR

You know what? Not to be insulting, but I think that's just dumb. Just name it geographically and be done with it.

LOL

Whenever somebody says "not to be insulting" the insult comes right after, just like "not to be sexist" is followed by something that would make Larry Flynt blush . Say it for real, own up to it: you think what I said is dumb. That's fine. It wasn't; you just disagree with it. I honestly think people can disagree without breaking it down to that level, but let your flag fly.

The "new" players/builders that people want to name divisions after (Lemieux, Gretzky, etc) have been out of the game awhile. Even Lemieux is already 8 years (Gretzky 14). And going back to the old names would make people spend more time on Wikipedia than on the standings page.

I'm sorry, but as a kid and even into my teens, I had no idea who Jack Adams or James Norris, etc. were. I didn't care, to be honest. I looked at the standings and, being a Flyers fan, I knew to look for the Patrick Division standings to see how they were doing, etc. I couldn't possibly have cared less who was behind the names of the divisions. They were before my time. Much as Gretzky, Lemieux, etc. are before the time of 10 year olds learning the game.

Most of them will be looking to see where their favorite team is in the standings and many won't care what they're named after.

For adults just learning the game, they may vaguely recognize the Gretzky or Lemieux names, but again, it's before their realm of exposure. They do, however, know pacific, midwest, east, etc. because presumably they've had some geography. Maybe they are even fans of other sports and because every other major sport does it by geography, that's what they're looking for. I know they scan down a list of 30 teams, but if they're from California and are looking for local teams, it helps that they can just scan for "Pacific" and not get out their decoder ring to figure out what the hell "Lemieux Division" has to do with California.

It's been geography for more years than bizarrely named divisions. Let's keep it that way.

For what it's worth, I also think that placing the Pacific teams in the "Lemieux Division" isn't the best idea. Then again, nobody ever has a hard time finding their team, no matter what the division is named. After all, you seemed to find the Flyers in the Patrick Division even though you never heard of Lester Patrick.

Anyway.

This is all fine, and I don't think that it's the end of the world either way. The league won't do better or worse based on how they name their divisions.

And we'll probably need to agree to disagree.

JR

-This is a league that locks out its players more often than MIchael Jordan places bets.

-This is a league where discipline is handled in a way that doesn't do the word "inconsistent" justice.

-This is a league where the Director of Hockey Operations is sending nasty emails to the head of officiating, complaining about calls made/not made in reference to his own son, who plays in the league.

-This is a league that allows a man to be named as an All-Star at two positions, one of which he doesn't even play.

-This is a league that, carte blanche, gave complete control of the expansion process to one GM (Sam Pollock) who then wrote the rules to benefit his team above all others, completely hosing competitive balance for the next decade.

We could go on.

The NHL is already a bush league, and is already seen that way. Many people openly consider fighting being allowed to be a joke, to be bush league.

Division names, whether they be geographic or historic, don't draw fans in and they sure as hell don't keep them away. I don't think it's the end of the world that they went geographic, and I sure as hell don't think they should have gone back to Norris/Smythe/etc, but I don't see the harm, either.

JR

@JR Ewing " 8 years is probably longer than you'll have the job, so the contract will most likely be the next guy's problem."

That's a great way of looking at it.

For the GM or me? LOL

I'm pretty convinced that's why GMs do it, anyway. You get to look good by locking up a key player, and even if the term is way too long (David Clarkson.......) then you most likely won't be the guy having to clean it up.

In that sense, it's completely like federal politics, where people make decisions are made far less in terms of what would be good in the long term, and much more so on a 4-year cycle. It's a shame, but it happens all the time.

JR

Yep, when you are around message board long enough, you inevitably see stuff recycled. For example, I've posted in about 10 identical threads about the top 5 goalies like we have going now. I fully expect a top 5 defensemen thread before the end of the summer....lol.

Being a veteran poster, I quite often use the stragety of anticipating an opposing view, acknowledging it, discuss it and ultimately undermine the opposition before the even get a chance to counter....lol. I learned quickly that people will inevitably take the opposite side to your theory, no matter how much sense it makes.....so the self made counter comes in handy...ha ha.

It's not only that, but I've seen this precise set of posts from a guy who went around to a bunch of forums at the same time, all so he could bait people with an argument over GWG, and he could "expose" their "lack of logic", when all they were doing was explaining the league's logic to him. He wasn't interested in discussion or debate. He was interested in looking down on people.

He was, in short, an ass.

I don't know if this is the same guy, but if he is..............

JR

How can the names Smythe, Adams, Norris, and Patrick identify a location to a new fan? Essentially then they have no meaning. If you first look at the NHL is divided between the East and the West. The Atlantic ocean lines the East from North to South, the metropolitan division is the center of that north / south region, just as a city is the center of the suburbs and surrounding countryside. Anyway that is just how I can relate to the names.

If they kept the Atlantic division the same for the most part what would they call the combined divisions of the northeast and southeast?

I do prefer the name "Metro" as opposed to "Metropolitan" chances are most on TV and radio will shorten the name also.

Not to be overly sarcastic, but I would guess the location of the city would be the dead giveaway... We don't really need a divsion name like "Pacific" to tell us where Los Angeles plays.

JR

Oh, this is really a shame. I hoped they would take their chance to come back with names that would be a throwback to the game's greatest players and/or builders, and wasn't so far removed from newer fans they've picked up: Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux, etc. The NHL has an amazing history which the league run towards, not away from.

JR

I wouldn't want to give a goalie credit or blame for the system employed his team. People are constantly knocking Brodeur for the Devils trapping (like so many other teams, btw). My issue with Brodeur is that the save percentage was just never there. Great goalie, didn't make my top 5 (was 6th).

On the other side of the coin, people want to sometimes give a little bit too much credit for goalies that played under a looser defensive system. With Grant Fuhr, the point is sometimes stretched to the absurd, and people talk about the Oilers as if they didn't give a rat's ass about defense when I can assure you they did. For all of the talk of the hard job Fuhr had, it was guys like Hextall, Burke, Bannerman, Hrudey, etc, who saw a lot more rubber each game.

a] Yeah, yeah... Paul Coffey... And the other 5 guys? Most years it was guys who were very good defensively: Kevin Lowe, Charlie Huddy, Lee Fogolin. Solid defensively: Jeff Beukeboom, Craig Muni, Steve Smith, Randy Gregg.

b] Forwards? They had two guys who were among the top vote getters for the Selke year-in and year-out: Craig MacTavish and Esa Tikkanen.

c] There is tremendous defensive benefit to always being at the other end of the ice, pushing play at the opposition. Less time in your zone, less chances at you net.

This isn't to say that the Oilers played a stifling defense. We're talking about the 80s; nobody really did that. You could see more breakaways in one game than you see in a month of games these days. But, over time, talk of how the Oilers played has taken on a life of its own.

TLDR for Fuhr: Like Brodeur, the save percentage just wasn't there.

JR

Part of the delay with Grabovski is likely due to the surprise of being bought out and that he was bought out on his wedding day. Add a nice honeymoon to that and I can easily see him not signing right away.

I would think the Capitals, Calgary, Florida and Tampa all want him. His best choice imo is either with the Capitals or Tampa.

Why: Yeah, I would bet the honeymoon is a major factor in his not being signed yet.

Where: a team that will give him the money he wants AND will not put make him a 3rd line centre. He has no interest in doing that again, clearly.

JR

Yup.

Honestly, it isn't a stat I've ever really paid attention to.

Not only that, but I've seen this exact topic played out in exactly this fashion.

It started out with a hypothetical description of goals scored and who was awarded the GWG, and then asked forum members to say why/how it worked. Then, after, the person came and told them why GWG is so wrong, blah blah blah, etc etc etc.

Seen this a few times on a few forums over the last decade.

JR

Uh oh...

I've been down this road enough times over the last 9-10 years on message boards. I know where this leads.

JR

You're right about Grabovski taking the tough minutes, that's for sure. When I said statistically I was referring to his offensive numbers in comparison to what they had been in the past. I thought Grabo did a decent job in the role he was given, but it's obvious it didn't completely agree to him (based on the loud noises in his "exit" interview).

Haha!

Yeah, that's putting it mildly. The man was seriously ticked off.

JR

Could be.

Still I find it hard to believe someone won't take a chance on him. He may need to lower his salary expectations given his poor season statistically.

Like I was saying in the Leafs forum, I fully expect whatever team grabs (pun intended) him to be very happy with that choice. I just hope it's a team Toronto doesn't have to face too often, judging by the way he would often up his game against Montreal...

I think he'll likely have to, but disagree about his year statistically speaking. His boxcar numbers were underwhelming, but a look under the hood shows that he had an extremely tough job to do with low quality teammates, and did it very well. It was because Grabovski was able to do so that Kadri was able to get all of the gravy zone starts with good linemates.

Unless I've missed something: who's going to play those minutes now?

JR

Last I heard, he had 1 single offer....from the KHL.

One offer which has been made public, at any rate.

JR

I always watched the Olympic tournament before NHL players were involved, but it's gotten so much better that it's not even close.

JR