elmatus

47 minutes ago, intheslot said:

think the target is Laine

This would be amazing, but it'll never happen. No team is getting rid of a 21 year old, 2nd overall pick who just two seasons ago was wrestling Alex Ovechkin for the rocket richard.

Ehlers would make more sense. I'd have to assume Ghost is involved though. If Ghost is involved, Fletch better hope the Hayes thing ends in a signing. Losing Ghost for a winger when our biggest need is a 2C is just bad business...

13 hours ago, ruxpin said:

 

Yeah, that's kind of what I was envisioning.  I would be interested in Strahlman.  Girardi could be the "veteran voice" if all else fails, but at this point I'm not sure he's an upgrade from McDud.

Honestly, I don't see the point in either of those guys. They're both middling dmen at this point in their careers, and they're not getting any younger. I also don't think just adding some mid-30s dman who has never really been that good is going to suddenly make our kids any better. I think adding a vet can be good if they were at some point very skilled and if they remain a good leader (Jagr was a perfect example), but neither Stralman or Girardi are the first thing, and there's really no telling if they're the second thing either.

Again, why just add pieces to add pieces, especially if they're aging pieces that are unlikely to have any measurable impact on the ice? The coaches should be able to provide whatever it is those two are expected to bring with regards to guidance. If they can't, then they're garbage coaches anyway, and we have a much bigger problem on our hands. 

The only real advantage those guys have for us right now is that they're likely to be cheap acquisitions as UFAs. Neither of them command any real value, so we could probably just use them as plugs for a year or two at very low salary. Is it worth it though just to be saddled with another potential McDud? 

Don't get me wrong, both Girardi and Stralman were and probably still are better than Mcdud, but that's a pretty low bar. My honest guess is those guys would be asked to play way more than they rightly should, and we'd all be frustrated as hell come xmas when AV refuses to reduce their ice time despite glaring weaknesses in their game. Even on the cheap, it feels an awful lot like a waste of effort and money to me.

21 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

Is there any trade value at all in MacDonald. Even retaining half of his salary for the year ?

He's not great, but when he's healthy he is reliable, skates pretty well and can be a 2nd unit pp guy. 

 

There are some teams that are ****ed with regard to the cap, not a lot of space and will wind up doing a Flyers for a player of his "ilk".

He could be a win/win kind of move for the right cap strapped team.

Computer says no.

2 hours ago, CoachX said:

So youre saying Ghost is out, get Subban, and leave Gudas as is?

 

How are you getting Subban?

Nah, I'm just commenting on the defence pairings mentioned by @brelic above.

As it stands right now, I think the only reason we should move Ghost is to get a legit 2C if Hayes refuses to sign. Personally, I don't see the point of trading Ghost for some other dman, unless that dman is a slam dunk. Trouba is far from a slam dunk. 

Is LA dealing Doughty? I'll listen.

As far as Subban goes, Fletch has said he would like to get a vet dman. If he does so, I just hope it's for someone who has some sort of proven track record of great play. While it's certainly fair to wonder if Subban is still as good as he once was, there's really no doubting he used to be a very dynamic player. So in that sense he fits the bill. We've been comparing with Trouba, which imo is a very bad comparison. Trouba has never been that guy. I have no reason to believe he'll suddenly morph into that guy at 26 or whatever.

That's not to say I want Subban either, only that I could understand Fletch trading for him. I still think trading Ghost to get Subban is essentially trading a younger offensive dman for an older one, which I'm not sure makes a ton of sense. 

As far as Trouba goes, if Fletch can get him for cheap, then sure. Ghost is not cheap. He's been one of the top offensive dmen in the league since he showed up. The return for him should be better than just Trouba. If it's isn't, Fletch will have undersold.

TL;DR:

If Fletch is trading Ghost, it should be for a 2C, not another dman.

Trouba is overhyped. Get him if he's cheap, but stay away otherwise.

If he absolutely feels a burning desire to get a "vet dman", Subban wouldn't be the worst choice. At least he has a history of franchise-level play.

On 6/7/2019 at 10:56 AM, brelic said:

 

Yeah, not sure I like that. Myers definitely does not belong on the top pair. Maybe he'll work his way there someday, but I would say there's no chance AV gifts him a spot on the top pair. He simply hasn't played enough NHL hockey to be given the toughest assignments, most minutes, and most responsibility. That's a recipe for disaster.

 

Not sold on Morin either. I think he's the 7th to start the year and will sub in for injuries or to change things up in poor stretches from the 3rd pairing. Unless he outright steals a spot in camp, start him as the healthy scratch, see how he does in practice, and go from there.

 

Also don't think Ghost is here to start the season.

 

If I had to guess, I'd say it will look more like

 

Provorov/Subban or Trouba

Sanheim/Gudas

Hagg/Myers

Morin

Trouba doesn't have enough firepower to be on the top line with Provo though, unless you think Provo will develop into more of an offensive threat? I could see that I suppose. You're thinking Provo becomes the fire while Trouba stays back to watch the farm?

Subban on the other hand would make significantly more sense. Always hard to tell if they'd play well together, or if Subban is still that guy. I wouldn't be opposed to trying though.

I've said it before, but if Fletch is going to bother getting a vet dman, he really should get one who has a proven record of high-level play. Subban would be that at least.

54 minutes ago, brelic said:

What stood out to me in the podcast was how aggressive Fletch plans to be. Not only has there been that 'sense' around the Flyers organization, he's been pretty clear in saying the same thing publicly. 

 

I think we end up with Subban or Trouba, possibly Karlsson if Fletch hasn't found a defenseman by July 1.

 

I also think our 11th pick will be dealt, and likely Gostisbehere +.

 

The current rumours are that Hayes will not sign with the Flyers and will test free agency, so if that happens, Fletch's game plan will have to change because there ain't much else he can get as 2C unless he goes the trade route. That will cost more assets.

 

Bottom line, Fletch will do what he thinks can essentially guarantee a playoff berth next year. 

 

 

If Hayes doesn't sign, I have to assume that means Ghost will be moving for a 2C of some sort. 

I have to be honest. I know Fletch has said publically he's looking for a vet dman. I honestly hope he doesn't just pick up whomever just because they happen to have been in the league for 10 years or something. We don't need another Macdonald. If he's going to bring in a vet, it needs to be someone who can actively contribute in a fundamental way. If it's not someone at least challenging for a spot on the top pairing, I'm not sure it's worth it.

Looking at the current crop of dman UFAs, there's aren't many options who fit the bill imo... maybe Edler? Myers I guess? Edler used to be good. I'd be fine with giving him a shot on a reasonable contract. I don't think Myers is any better than what we have already in spades -- quite possibly worse.

9 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

@elmatus

 

my "not exactly large" qualifier was an allusion to the boys' youth. Sanhiem hasn't gotten his "man weight" yet neither has Myers.

So those guys are tall but they are slight (Sanhiem more than Myers).

 

Provorov is still a young cat and may fill out some and while Gudas isn't "big" he's solid and plays the heavy game - oh wait that guy is gone- any way Gudas plays like a larger man. 

 

So adding a guy like Trouba at 6'3" whatever would make that quite a physically imposing group, at least they'd look good getting off the bus. 

 

Sure, I get that. I honestly don't think it will be a problem though. Gudas, Hagg, and Provo are all big and constant hitters who are very solid on their skates. Myers showed a similar playstyle in his stint. Sanheim seems more of a dynamic skater type, but he has plenty of time to figure things out (and hopefully better coaching), and of course if Morin makes this team, half the league will immediately hate hopping on to the ice at WFC for fear of leaving on a stretcher.

If we can somehow get Trouba for cheap, I'm all for it. He's a good player and would look good on the second pairing with someone like Sanheim or Myers or even Ghost for that matter. I just think he's overhyped, and I don't think he really offers anything we're not likely to develop ourselves with our current crop. Ghost on the other hand has shown a very dynamic skill set that is rare among dmen. I'm fine with trading him. I think Sanheim in particular could grow to fill much of the same role. I just don't think Trouba is a good return.

10 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

@elmatus I know Trouba was highly regarded and we know it takes dmen longer to develop but I dont get to watch other teams at all ,so I cant rate his play. If we have to trade Ghost or the pick, i would hope its for a 25 or 26 year old player not somebody who is 32 and on his last legs..Do you have any dmen in mind who are relatively young and have what it takes to stabilize the defense and be somewhat of a leader. 

 

If you take this one season out, Trouba has scored about 25pts per season in his first five years. In juniors, he was really more of a stay at home guy than a dynamic player of any sort. As far as his defensive metrics go, he's no better than Ghost. In fact, Ghost is actually better at most possession metrics. Ghost is also significantly better offensively, scoring essentially double Trouba's average since he came into the league.

I'm not saying trading Ghost for a solid vet dman is a bad idea. I just don't think Trouba fits the bill. Trouba is a good NHL dman, but Ghost is better imo. I wouldn't see that trade as any sort of improvement.

And if the reasoning is that Trouba is a big man and big means good, I would offer that virtually every dman we have up and coming who is not named Ghost is actually quite big. 

1 hour ago, RonJeremy said:

depending on the quality of the dman if it’s Trouba, they will want Ghost for sure

I hope this doesn't happen. I don't think Trouba is as advertised. One good season does not a solid vet dman make. If we're going to do something like this, let's get a vet dman with a proven record of some sort, not someone who may just have gotten one lucky year.

On 6/4/2019 at 9:57 AM, mojo1917 said:

Colton Parayko especially has been a beast.

Peitrangelo is big...and they all skate well, Myers, Sanhiem, Friedman, Gudas and even Provorov are all pretty solid bodies if not exactly large.

Myers is 6'5 and Sanheim 6'3 -- and that's without mentioning beastly Morin at 6'7. They're younger and need to fill our a bit, but I have no doubt all three are going to be big dmen. Provo is a bit smaller in stature (6'1), but he plays much bigger than his size. For comparison sake, Pietrangelo is 6'3 and Parayko 6'6.

I'm not saying you're wrong or anything. I actually like Pietrangelo and Parayko both and wouldn't be opposed at all if Fletch tried to get either of them. I'm just saying our blue line of the future is not what anyone should consider small. I'm not sure if that's what you were alluding to when you say "not exactly large." If anything, there's every reason to believe our up and coming blue line will be quite large in fact.

4 hours ago, ctid said:

Hope you are wrong aswell. But I have a bad feeling fletch will give up the 11th for zucker.... 

With Hayes in the fold now, my guess is any other moves Fletch makes will be for a vet dman. Some of that may depend on what he thinks of the kids coming up of course. Bringing in a vet would mean blocking someone else at this point. He's mentioned wanting to though, so I wouldn't be shocked.

We do need a 3rd line RW now with Simmer gone I suppose. Not sure who fits the bill there though, and he might prefer to give the remaining spot to someone from LHV and bump Hartman up to the third or something.

I've always liked Marcus Johansson. I think he's at the end of his contract. Would be a decent 3rd line signing. He's currently a bit busy to talk to other teams though I would bet.

13 minutes ago, radoran said:

Could be that getting future assets - a Ratcliffe and the 11th? - could be just what they need.

 

I just worry we're yet again putting way too much stock in an unproven junior. I have a hard time thinking many NHL GMs are interested in trading top line centers for any junior player. That just seems so unlikely to me.

I feel like they're more likely to find a way to move others honestly. Stastny would be the obvious choice to start. If they do move Karlsson, I would have to assume it's for more than a junior player and the 11th overall pick.

4 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

So would TJ Brodie or Travis Hamonic be of interest to the Fly guys?

 

Meh. I feel like I'm not very interested in adding guys just to add guys. We have too many high quality prospects for that. I'm not opposed to getting a dman necessarily, but it should be someone that offers something to the team. Brodie and Hamonic offer little but shot blocking stats.

12 minutes ago, brelic said:

Also, look at how their defense stacks up? They've already got high priced guys back there, so if they're subtracting Karlsson ($5.25m last year), I highly doubt they'd be adding roughly the same in another defenseman. The math and need simply don't work.

Fair enough, but Ratcliffe for W. Karlsson is highly unlikely impossible. It would have to be some sort of package. No NHL team is giving up a top six center for an unproven junior, even less a guy who was in the running for the rocket richard just two seasons ago.

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

I still dont see them trading Ghost

I think it will depend on whether Fletch can find a suitable 2C via FA. If not, I could see him move Ghost to get one.

3 hours ago, brelic said:

If it gets us a long-term solid player (i.e. mid-20s guy) like, say a William Karlsson, then I'm good with parting with a Ratcliffe. 

 

Ratcliffe would seem a bad trade chip to get someone like Karlsson anyway. Ghost is a more likely candidate.

If Ratcliffe is part of any trade, it's unlikely he's the central piece. It would be part of a package deal, and I think Ghost plus anything is probably too much. Ghost for Karlsson straight up seems pretty fair to me. I wouldn't add a promising prospect to that.

8 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

Wait, are we talking about Provorov now?

 

 

In all seriousness, I think either Trouba or Subban would be a boost to what we have. Put another way, they're both possibly better and more experienced than anyone we have on the blueline - and that includes Provorov until I see him bounce back into cyborg mode.

 

Either one makes our team better.

This is what I'm not sure I understand though. Subban I can get. He's had some stellar years and has on many occasions been the deciding factor in games in his career. Trouba really has not. Not only that, he's never even come close to being that guy. It feels a lot like someone hyped him up and somehow the internet blew it wild. I don't think he's ever shown he has that level of talent.

As far as making our team better, it would depend on what we're giving up. If we lose a Ghost to get a Trouba, I would consider that making us worse for sure. I'm fine with trading Ghost, but we can do better than Trouba for him.

And if we're hedging bets on Provo, mine is with him regaining his form and then some. The drop last season was too precipitous to be some sort of real decline.

3 minutes ago, brelic said:

Trouba is a more sound two-way defenseman.

He's really more of a stay at home type through his career. Last season he had 50 pts, which is double his usual totals. He wasn't any sort of dynamo in junior either. It seems more likely last season was an anomaly than not at this point. More than likely he's a 25-30pt guy at best. 

10 hours ago, ruxpin said:

I question Trouba's attitude. 

 

Outside of that, he's an RHD that can play next to Provorov letting Sanheim solidify the 2nd pair on his natural side. 

 

That works for me. YMMV

 

For me, yeah, I'll take him over Subban. At 30, PK seems to be breaking down and on the backside. He still has some mileage, at a $9M cap hit he's not worth it. 

 

Trouba is 5 years younger, had better numbers and will likely be cheaper. 

 

I know Trouba had teammates, but Subban's teammates are no slouch. 

 

I know it's not like they are the only two options, and I'm open to other possibilities, but between the two it's Trouba for me all day every day. 

 

I think my higher priority is 2C, though. Hoping to do both, but in order it's 2C and RW for me. Then the dman. 

To be honest, I wouldn't really want Subban either. I'm just not sure I'd want Trouba over him honestly. At least Subban could be the sort of mentor type for our young back end, which I can understand. Trouba isn't that.

Also, I agree with you on his attitude. I remember he was tossed through the muck a while back for wanting too much money. At some level, that's just folks wanting to get paid, but the problem is he's never really shown himself to be a no.1 guy (yet), so I can understand the Jets brass not really wanting to shell out that level of salary.

Could suddenly become a legit no.1 dman at 26yrs old? Sure. Do I expect him to? Meh. It's possible? It's also entirely possible he benefits from entirely too much hype in a market starved for hockey success.

On 5/27/2019 at 4:56 PM, brelic said:

Would I trade him for Subban? No. Trouba? Maybe.

You would take Trouba over Subban?

Maybe I'm the oddball here, but I'm not sure why Trouba is so adored all of a sudden. Don't get me wrong, he's by no means a bad player, but the way some folks are talking on this board makes me wonder what I'm missing. He plays on a very strong roster and isn't excelling in any real way imo.

On our team, I doubt he would end up playing with Provo. He'd likely be a solid 2nd pairing guy, which is great and all, but I'm not backing up the truck for that personally... especially when our bigger need remains down the middle, not on the back end.

As great as Marner would be, 22yr old players with such high potential don't generally move around much. The payment for him would be tremendous as others have noted, and I honestly can't see it happening. 

I like the W. Karlsson idea. I like Hayes as well. I'm not a big Duchene fan, and I'm pretty confident he'll cost way too much to whomever signs him, but I could understand the acquisition and would be provisionally content with it.

Regardless, we need a 2C. Go get one Fletch.

I saw a few folks mention Kadri. I wouldn't mind that either. He's on a pretty reasonable contract for what he brings. I'm not sure he's really 2C good, but he's probably good enough to at least push Patrick to try harder. 

I heard the rumour mill was floating Ghost's name around a fair bit. I wouldn't doubt it's an attempt to find the elusive 2C we're talking about here. Not sure if that fuels the convo or not, but it opens up the trade front rather than just FAs.

1 hour ago, vis said:

Well, it's interesting that he was fired as soon as Claude Julien, another french-canadian guy, became available.  So you may be on to something there....

 

In his book, Briere said he had a few run-ins with Therrien and related a story about how Therrien singled out Briere in a video session and basically said no one on the team respected him or wanted to play with him.  Pretty harsh to treat a veteran player that way.  I'm all for a coach that holds players accountable, but I'm not a fan of degrading or insulting players.  I wonder how Therrien's personality will play with the youth.

Yeah, I've heard many similar stories about him essentially treating players as garbage to get a point across. As much as some folks might brand that as some sort of "tough love", shame is a very bad communications tool and generally does not have the intended effect. I don't imagine that's somehow magically different in a locker room.

Anyway, he's here apparently, so I guess we just all have to hope he doesn't screw up our youngins or something while he's around.

I mean, so many of us here have been shouting for fundamental changes to the coaching staff. We've got that now in spades.

Are they good changes? That's a lot harder to say. But at least it's not another year of Hakstol and co.

1 hour ago, vis said:

Whatever the case, curious how things go with Therrien.  Don't think he's a well-liked guy and I have never been very impressed with his teams.  I like that he may make some players uncomfortable or challenge them, but I don't like that he can be a pretty mean dude.  I don't think that tactic works well with players these days.

I'm with you here. I always figured the only reason the Habs kept Therrien around so long was because he happens to be french-canadian. His teams never seemed particularly good, and I've heard pretty awful things about his relationship with the players there. 

Anyway, again, we got plenty of coaching changes now. Not much to be done about it except see what happens.