vis

Generally, I agree (though, I also agree that Snider was probably pretty direct about signing Bryzgalov, trading Carter and Richards and possibly signing VLC and sheeting Weber). But, Snider established the agenda/strategy/philosophy for the team, e.g., "do what you must to win now," which in turn lead to Holmgren decimating the prospect pool and making some dubious signings and trades and hiring/firing coaches. I think Holmgren, in many instances, was reacting to Snider's edicts.

And his trades, too. Always slightly overpays. It’s death by a thousand paper cuts.

That’s what I was think would be ideal. Thought $2.1m max. This is another slight overpayment. Seems to me the org was at $1.8 and the player at $2.8 and split the difference. Slight overpayment, so not a big deal. But the pattern continues...

Another bit of an overpayment. I think Laughton is an OK player, but that’s not the kind of cap hit I want on my 4th line. And I’m not sure he’s talented enough to deserve the 3RW position full time. He does things this team needs, but not sure at a level that merits that salary. Has Fletcher made any moves where he didn’t at least slightly overpay? Honestly, don’t think I have said “good value” for any of his moves. How much is left to sign Provorov and Konecny? Really worried Columbus is going to give Werenski a ridiculous contract.

As for Holmgren, it’s the sense I get when looking at some of his moves and the culture within which he operated, eg Snider and now Comcast. I don’t think some of his moves were rational, but were made at the behest of his bosses. I think he very much respects “chain of command” and that’s an admirable trait, to a degree. And by the way, I didn’t mean what I said as an insult to Holmgren. I think he gets bashed unfairly at times as a result of actions/strategies his bosses wanted him to take.

I didn't say that he was a "mindless cement head." I said I think he was a loyal soldier to his bosses and carried out their orders. That's it. This is some sanctimonious BS.

Yeah, I don't think Holmgren wanted to be the hatchet man re: Hextall, but, being the soldier he is, he did it anyway. I would not be surprised if that took the wind out of him and I wonder if he decided back then that he'd step aside once the GM and coach were firmly in place. I do think Holmgren is a good man. I think it pained him to let Hextall go. Good points by both of you re: Holmgren's early tenure. He also made some pretty good trades that got Lupul and Upshall and Coburn and others here. I should have qualified my statement above about his lack of vision. You know, a lot of people kind of bemoaned the presence of the "old guard" still with the team. Yeah, there were some issues, but I also think the pride those guys felt about the organization, their faithfulness to Snider and his loyalty to the players gave this organization an identity and made it a place where players want to come and play. Nearly every time you hear players talk about the organization, you hear them say that the players are a priority and they want for nothing and that they are treated extremely well. Players were excited to come here (maybe some players got spoiled by that treatment, e.g., Richards and Carter). With the old guard gone, I worry about this team losing its roots and identity. I despise the fact that a faceless corporation, who I question has a real desire to win above profitability, now runs this team. Really scares me. I don't even understand why Comcast wants to own the team. I hope they sell it.

Holmgren's greatest strength was his willingness to carry out the orders of those above him. I remain convinced that nearly all of his actions as an executive were dictated by Snider or Scott, or were made in furtherance of their directives. I don't think the guy had his own vision, or perhaps it wasn't in his DNA to challenge or vary from what his bosses wanted. Btw, I'm sure this title is nothing more than a placard with a salary and employment benefits. He's moving into Clarke's role.

I think he's played wing in the past, but agree he is probably more of a contributor at center given his defensive acumen. And if Patrick or Frost pushes him out of 2C (assuming it's not because Hayes' play is faltering), that's not a bad thing.

Yeah, I didn't have much of an issue with term given his age. But that term at that cap hit is a tough pill to swallow. Possibly. The NTC (12 team no trade list) makes that a little bit of a challenge. However, his contract has little lower cap hit the last two years, of which $1.25m is a signing bonus which might make him a little attractive to teams willing to take on cap for a lower salary. Of course, those are probably the types of teams Hayes will have on his no-trade list.

I'm with you. I had more or less started listening to the podcast and started to appreciate Charlie's POV of things, even thought I think he's too heavy on the analytics. But that whole Quenneville fiasco was brutal and the tone of the podcast during the year was very "whiney". Or right here on this board!! (I include myself in that statement.)

That seems to run counter to what I've been reading/hearing in other circles. I think Sanheim and Braun will be the second pairing with Ghost/Myers as the third.

If that's the case, you don't think he will still be a top 6 player in a couple of years? I get that maybe he moves to wing if Patrick improves, but I don't think that means he's not going to be a top contributor in a couple of years. Four/five years down the line, yeah, it could be a problem. But thinking he's not going to be a core player in only couple of seasons seems a bit out of whack to me. Who is Charlie's source for this? Has this been reported elsewhere? I kinda question stuff like this, particularly since there was that whole episode where some of his podcast mates (and Charlie, to a degree) were running wild with the whole "Hakstole fired/Quenneville Hired" story in the middle of the season. I don't think $5/5 was ever a realistic scenario for anyone to pay Hayes. He was paid more than that last season. Marquee 27 year old UFAs (which has was, given the dearth of UFA centers) typically don't get less than what they were paid the previous year. I think a reasonable projection for him would have been $6m/6 years, possibly as low as $5.75m. As soon as the Flyers traded for his rights, I knew he'd get the 7th year, but didn't think he'd go much higher than $6m (sadly, I was way wrong about that). But I think a cap hit closer to $5m/year simply wasn't realistic.

I just don't see the Hayes contract as "insane." Overpayment? Yes. But not "insane" overpayment nor do I disagree with the rationale behind signing him. After 4+ years of not being a meaningful contender - and missing POs - I totally get the change in approach.

And what Konecny is likely to get. His agent either did him wrong, or Labanc told the agent to step aside and that he wanted to stay in SJ. Seems really risky on his part.

Yes it is. Labanc probably should have got over $3m/year for 3 years. He took a contract worth 1/3 of that. He’s also RFA with little negotiating power. Meanwhile, Hayes got maybe $1.5m/year more than market and at least one, maybe two, more years than folks thought he should get. He was also UFA. Labanc getting that contract is just as insane, if not more, than Hayes’ deal. And I’m not a fan of the Hayes contract.

The Labanc contract is absurd, and probably more absurd than the Hayes contract. Very different set of circumstances.

Sometimes I don't read so good, either! Sorry for the misinterpretation.

Part of the reason for bringing in Niskanen and Braun was to help mentor and provide leadership for the young dmen. Williams could fill that role among the forwards, and perhaps overall. Maybe I misunderstand, but you don't think filling the leadership/veteran void, particularly on defense, is a sound rationale for trading for Niskanen/Braun? Granted it shouldn't be the sole reason, but surely the team needed to address that deficiency among the d-men, no?

This is true. But my sense is that he's rarely mentioned when the team talks about guys who could vie for a roster spot. Last year, it was Vorobyev. And this year it seems like they talk about Frost, Farabee, Rubtsov and Vorobyev. Granted, there haven't been many soundbites this year, so the sample is small, plus the comments came after prospect camp. I don't know. He may have a shot, but I think it's a longer shot than the others.

Pretty much agree with that hierchary. I want them to have another leader among the forwards. Williams is perfect for that role and has connections to the area.

AHL fodder, probably. I think time has passed him by, unless he comes to camp blazing (see below). And by that time, the Flyers may have already signed another UFA for 3RW, making any shot that any young guy might have had moot. Either is probably the seventh or may pull spot duty here or there. One thought: might Laughton play at 3RW and have Pitlick play 4C and Andreoff or Gabriel play 4RW? If they don't sign a UFA by camp, I think Frost, Farabee and Rubtsov will get a lot of consideration for that spot. I kind of think those guys might be passing NAK by.

Good points. I honestly think people will be pleased with Niskanen and Braun. Should Fletcher have retained salary or given up as much as he did? Probably not, but I don't think any of that hurts us that much. Hayes is going to be a whipping boy because of his contract. But, I do think he'll be a good player as well. A coaching/culture change alone should improve the team.

I think Werenski sets the market since I think he's likely to get the biggest payday -- not necessarily because he's the best of the three (debatable), but CBJ is probably desperate to lock him up and need to do something after losing Panarin and Bobrovsky.

Capfriendly has the Flyers with almost $15m in cap space. Still need to sign Provorov, Konecny and probably Laughton. I think Provorov is going to get close to $7m/6 years, Konecny gets a $4m/2 year bridge and Laughton gets $2m/2 years. That leaves them with $2m in cap space. Assuming those signings happen, the roster shapes up likely shapes up like this: Giroux/Couturier/Konecny JVR/Hayes/Voracek Lindblom/Patrick/??? Raffl/Laughton/Pitlick Andreoff Provorov/Niskanen Sanheim/Braun Ghost/Myers Hagg Morin For shits and giggles, below are some of the UFA forwards still out there (not sure any of them are within the Flyers' range, unless they deal a d-man): - Justin Williams - Patrick Marleau - Pat Maroon - Jason Pominville - Marcus Johannson - Michael Ferland