brelic

51 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

Is it? I mean, don't get me wrong, I *want* it to be a big set back. I want to be able to say this team is significantly better with Patrick in the line up. I'm just not sure we can really say that with what Patrick has shown in his admittedly short career to date. I certainly hope we get to a point where we can say that, but I'm pretty hesitant to say that right now.

 

Sure, he's an NHL player. But he has hardly been a major force on the ice. At this point, he would definitely be a 3C, which is probably where he should be anyway based on how he's played in his time here so far. Does he have another gear? I hope so. I just don't think we know yet what we've got in him. What we've seen is not exactly very inspiring. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I do want him back in the line up. He's young, and I have to think he has more to show than what we've gotten so far. I think he's better and certainly has more upside than Laughton for instance, and in that way he definitely would make the team better. How much better? That's harder for me to say. I certainly don't consider him a gamechanger of any real kind. He's an upgrade from Laughton, but I don't think it's very wise to assume this team could have won any of these last three games if Patrick was in the line up. He's just not that impactful (yet?)

Yeah, that’s totally fair. If last year’s Patrick shows up, it’s probably a marginal upgrade. 
 

But every once in a while you see flashes of why Patrick was drafted so highly. He’s gonna figure it out. 
 

Laughton has never shown any of those flashes, and that’s because it’s just not there. 

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

Yeah... I just don't necessarily agree with that last paragraph.  

 

Last night was actually really promising in a lot of ways.  I think sooner or later, Fletcher's going to have to pull the trigger on Farabee and let Stewart and Pitlick slide.  

 

THey liked what they saw out of Bunnyman and Twarynski, but it's time to face the facts and put the guys with actual potential and not just sand paper and "try" the time to thrive.  

 

If Patrick isn't ready, then put in the 3C that actually has the skill potential to be 3C.

Farabee is ready to be a 2W now. 

 

if Pitlick and Laughton are your 4th with Raffl (not playing C) and your 3rd has more skill and skating on it, then low and behold, they're a good deep team.

 

Right now, for whatever reason, because Patty's got an issue, Fletcher is afraid to let this team's depth be deep.  I'm not sure why.  

 

Anyway, it's game 5.  They're at .500 under difficult circumstances with a brand new system.  They lost a game they were clearly just not in from the puck drop... be it jet lag or the flu or whatever, it was clear, they weren't all there.  any of them.

 

Then they lost a game that they pretty much dominated.  The PP's better and the PK is better (though not great after last night).

 

All in all the direction is good.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think the Flyers definitely have the existing pieces in the system to be a deep team, but a big chunk of it is derailed because of Patrick's injury. It really is a big set back that has no current solution. 

Man, I hope he comes back soon. The lack of news is... encouraging? Or at least the fact that he's not LTIR is encouraging.

3 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

Throughout the Flyers entire  history , other than Lindros,  we never had generational talent, we had good players,  yet we were always one of the top teams and a very successful franchise. What set us apart was leadership and determination . We always came to play and never quit. Clarke, Poulin, Sutter, Tocchet, Primeau, .etc. I really believe that this team lacks leadership, and has not had a true leader since Pronger.  Lindros was never a leader and I dont think Giroux and Voracek are good leaders either.  I just dont think they have the alpha personalities to lead this team. We don't have the fire of past Flyer teams.

Yeah, maybe. It's definitely possible that the team on the ice could be better with different leadership. The challenge in these cases, though, is that how do you realistically address that? That is a difficult and very disruptive process i.e. it would probably have a strong effect on the team for a while, whether good or bad. Hard to say. So not only is it a pretty hard thing for Fletch to realistically "solve", but it's also very risky on whether or not it will have the intended effect.

I'm not saying don't do it. I'm just saying it's not easy, and I would guess, almost a non-starter for Fletch (to move Giroux). He would need a LOT of evidence that there is an actual problem.

7 minutes ago, JR Ewing said:

 

This is really it: development doesn't necessarily occur in a straight line. The problem is when people assume that a trajectory will continue to just go up and up and up, and Philly's poor goaltending depth forced him into this position before (and I could be alone in this) think he was ready for it. The struggles are going to happen with a lot more eyeballs and pressure on him than there would have been in the American League.

 

Nothing to do now but ride out the ups and downs.

And we are seeing this right now. Provorov has had a very up and down start to his career. Ghost is another. Sanheim, TK, Patrick, and almost certainly Hart will too.

I know no one wants to hear this... but I'd say we're 2-3 years away

Joking!

But not really.

4 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

Greetings:

 

This is a great post. I think the last paragraph is critical.  You could argue the Oilers have had their "Process."  Persistent losing has led to drafting of "generational" talent.  We may have snagged a few good people over the past few years.  But they aren't game changers, with the possible exception of Hart or TBD.  It's sad but true. Shoot...our "miracle draft ball" may have chronic health issues. 

Definitely. I mean, the Oilers had more than their fair share of the "process" that was likely delayed by mismanagement, but on that Braun miscue last night, I don't think anyone not named McDavid scores there. He's just on another level. 

The bad news is, yeah, we don't have generational talent, and aren't likely to get some anytime soon. Hopefully Patrick comes back healthy and has a great career, but he is hardly a generational talent. 

The good news is, St Louis won the Stanley Cup. Without generational talent. And TB's elite talent was ousted by a team that played like a team, and wanted it more. Yes, you need top talent, and we have that.

Maybe we need more, maybe we need "different" talent, I don't know.

6 minutes ago, yave1964 said:

Something in the water in vegas.

That's almost definitely true lol.

Honestly, I'd be surprised if PED use in the NHL was NOT rampant. Maybe that's an unfair assumption for me to make, but there's doping in all the major sports, and they're really good at hiding it for the most part. 

18 minutes ago, Digityman said:

Hart minus the flashy save or two is looking rather average so far. 

Like it or not, our season depends on large part for Hart to play "above" his age level. Or Elliott providing some above average play for a stretch if Hart struggles. 

This is a little bit like the Provorov situation - he is a projected #1 at his position, but 'projection' doesn't help right now.

He's at 2.46/.904 after 4 games. We'll know more after 20 games about where Hart's game is at. 

FWIW, Price's rookie year (20 years old) he played 41 games, 2.56/.920, then dipped for a few years (.905, .912). He he a great year at 23 years old (.923), and then a few more down years before hitting his peak years at 26/27 years old.

Kid's got all the physical and mental tools. He just needs experience to reach the next levels, whenever that might be.

11 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

 

Trust. The. Process.

That's sooooo Hextallian.

Here's where we stand after 5 games...

23rd overall in points (16th in p%)
20th in GF/GP
21st in GA/GP
6th on the PP
20th on the PK

2-2-1.

Those certainly aren't playoff-team stats. It's still early, and it was a brutal schedule for these first five games. 

A few troubling trends are still kicking around - namely, starting slow and giving up an early goal. 

Let's see where they are after 10. 

I watched until they chased Hart. No sense losing any more sleep to watch the rest.

A few positives...

- Ghost actually looked like old Ghost and made a few picks and offensive plays that he would have done in years past to change the tone of the game. They didn't work out, but the fact that he tried is something I haven't seen from him in at least a season.

- The PP scored a few times again last night, and more importantly, it got Jake going. 3 point night and he was quite noticeable. 

- It was, for the most part, a good response to the Calgary game the night before. The Flyers dominated for long stretches, and severely outshot the Oilers. After each of the first three Oilers goals, I thought the Flyers responded with strong shifts and stretches. 

Outside of that, the big difference tonight was top end talent and goaltending. They buried their few chances when they got them, and they had smart puck movement in the offensive zone that forced lateral movement and confusion. The Flyers just didn't bury their chances, and really looked like a peewee perimeter grinding team when compared to the offensively gifted Oilers players in transition.

Hart was also not sharp and didn't give his team the timely saves it needed. All the goals were well placed shots from talented players, but they were all stoppable (except maybe McDavid). It was just a weak effort from Hart overall. I've noticed thru preseason (Lausanne) and the four regular season games that Hart's weakness seems to be shots from 10-15 feet out. Those are the ones that beat him, and they usually beat him clean with minimal or no screen. A lot like Carey Price early on, actually. Anyway, that's a part of his game he'll need to work on over time.

The 2-2-1 record is fine considering the circumstances. Still, when watching the game last night, I couldn't help feeling that the Flyers are still just muckers and grinders and that top end "modern" NHL talent eludes us.

For those who don’t know, Tim Hortons is the Canadian Dunkin’ Donuts. 
 

https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/former-nhl-enforcer-donald-brashear-is-working-at-a-tim-hortons-in-quebec

19 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

 

Nice observations. Felt like I was reading my own thoughts.

 

Niskanen's making his value known.  Setting an example for the other vets.

That he's outproducing G and Jake and JVR is terrifying.  

Yeah Niskanen looks like a very smart acquisition by Fletch. He's providing a lot of what was missing last year.

As for the top guys not producing, it looks like they just don't have any chemistry right now. I'd be hesitant to break up the Lindblom/Coots/TK line since they're playing so well, but we know that JVR/Hayes/Voracek line was solid in preseason, so why not try that, and reunite G/Coots/TK? 

Of course, the problem then is that Lindblom loses out. Could swap him and JVR.

19 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

Gotta think they're just a little snake bitten right now.  They've all had chances.  It's not like they're not in the play.  But tonight would be a good time to sort it out.

 

At this point, I'm on board with trying out Farabee on the third.  They need a little help with the get up and go.  

 

 

Maybe we see a move by the weekend in time for the Dallas game? A lot willl depend on the outcome tonight and individual play.

2 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

Other than Brian Elliot and Oscar Lindblom I thought the whole team looked bad.

Couldn't make or receive a pass, fought the puck all night, they just didn't have it. 

Pretty odd that it wasn't just a couple of guys, it was everyone.

 

I think I'm over seeing Giroux on the right side during the power play, the puck movement is there and that's great but his shot isn't.

His shot from the half wall is accurate and when the goalie does get to it, he creates many rebound chances from that spot. 

 

I do like the way they keep going to the net though. 

 

Also, I have said I didn't hate the Stewart signing, I don't, I don't think versus Calgary is where I would play him, unless it was a feel good thing, "hey here's your contract go play some hockey tonight" I don't think he's the worst choice for a 13th forward, I do think I'd rather see maybe Rubstov with the NHL club playing 4th line minutes and save Stewart for gooning when necessary. 

Pretty much agree with all of this. 

Elliott kept this game within reach the entire time. How many shots did they allow? It was very close to 40 if not over. It's nice to see him dialed in.

Lindblom is turning into a possession monster right before our eyes. He just turned 23 and I wouldn't be surprised to see him hit 40 points this year. Very strong on the boards, makes a lot of little subtle heads up plays. 

I also thought Niskanen had a very strong game again. 

The rest of the team just looked off last night. Could be the travel, the flu bug (which has apparently hit half the team), or just the growing pains of a new coach, new system, and seemingly new lines every shift. The worst they can do on through this opening road trip is .500 (2-2-1). On par with what I hoped they could at least reach in this tough stretch.

The bottom 6 is struggling, but it is admittedly weak. Missing Patrick and another more talented winger (say, Farabee?) or a better pivot (Rubtsov?). I would bet that there will be roster changes once they're back in Philly.

The more concerning issue is the top 6. G, Jake, Hayes, and JVR just aren't contributing offensively. They need to get going.

On defense, oof. Provorov was guilty of some egregious turnovers and poor decision making last night. He did balance it out somewhat with some nice plays, but I was hoping those 'rookie' mistakes would be ironed out by now. He's still only 22, so I'm not worried about him long-term - but it becomes an issue when he's also expected to play like a consistent #1 right now, not 5 years from now.

Braun was directly responsible for two major gaffes on the first goal. Ghost has zero dynamic element to his game left. Sanheim was playing a bit like Myers last night and trying to do too much. Hagg is Hagg.

All in all, a rough night. 

Quick turnaround, so let's see them plaster McDavid to the boards.. oh wait, we don't have Manning anymore. They do!  Watch out G!

Just now, OccamsRazor said:

 

Sure but sharp pointy darts are more dangerous!

Especially when you throw them at numbered balls.

They don't have it tonight. Fighting the puck. 

Not a fan of the Stewart signing. He didn't really show much in preseason.

5 minutes ago, jammer2 said:

A few things Hart does lead me to believe he is the real deal. His side to side movement is elite. His anticipation is elite. His reflexes are elite. Like every successful goalie he needs quick zone exits consistently and minimal second and third chances. He seems to have the type of skill set to take care of the stuff he can control...and that is all I ask.

 

The rest lies of the feet of Fletch and V to surround with players and a system that make life easier on him. I LOVE the way he watches the puck. He is rarely out of position after the first quick pass because his instincts naturally cheat to the guy he knows is getting the puck...add in elite reflexes to that package and you have the beginning of something special.

Can you imagine what he must have been feeling after that save, and having the entire building erupt to cheer him on? Can you imagine how the team felt watching him make that save, and then killing off the 3 on 5 to end the period? The building was ELECTRIC and that's the kind of atmosphere that has been sorely lacking since pre-Hextall. Probably since early in Homer's tenure. (The only game in recent memory that felt like that was Hart's debut against Nashville).

Honestly, I said it earlier in the thread, but damn, that whole game - the 2nd period in particular - felt like a playoff game. 

The PP had puck movement I haven't seen from the Flyers in a LONG time. Both PP units, actually.

The goalie was en fuego. 

The team dominated every aspect of the game. 

That's some great early success for them to build on, and to make them believers in AV, the coaching staff, and most importantly, in each other.

2 hours ago, Digityman said:

I fear (again, hopefully wrong) that we as fans are loading so much hope on Hart that if he doesn't hit elite status, we will consider him a bust even though he might be a completely serviceable NHL goalie in the end.

Oh, it's probably inevitable that he will have struggles in his career. Just about all players do. Remember when everyone wanted to trade Giroux when he had his 50-some point season? 

And, Philly being Philly, it's probably inevitable that fans will turn on Hart when he does struggle. 

But in the long-view, I truly believe he will be a top level goaltender for his career.

7 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Fletch didn't call up Hart (sorry for the # typo) until he was basically forced to.

Yeah, I know, but I feel like Hexy would have been scanning the waiver wire for goalie #9, and then strapped on the pads himself to be #10 in a pinch lol.

7 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

 

I can tell you that my mood is certainly changed.  But, again, that's primarily due to 79.

 

Wouldn't surprise me if he's had a similar effect on the guys on the ice.

 

Absolutely. Love Hart. More than just his talent, he seems like a genuinely special human.

1 minute ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 Ya...it's really too bad we FINALLY, after 30 effin years got what looks like a franchise goalie. And it sucks that for the first time EVER, the Flyers look to have drafted and developed a top pairing defenceman. And maybe ANOTHER top pairing defenceman. And what looks like several more NHL calibre depth at the position. And about 4 or 5 LINES of depth at the forward position just starting to knock on the door.

 

 The dark cloud is lifting...thanks in large part to the guys drafting. If we ever win a cup, Hextall will likely have more to do with it than anyone else in management. He may not have been great at buying free agents (large in part cause he couldn't because of the cap mess left to him) and he might have been a control freak...and he probably had to go. But he sure as heck did help dig this franchise out. 

Oh c'mon FC, you know me better than that!

Of course all the stuff Hextall did with drafting was pure wizardry. He stocked them cupboards like they've never been stocked before. And beyond Hart, we have at least two other potential star goalies in the system. I'd say I was a fan of 90% of what Hextall was doing. And I was fine with him taking the time necessary to get there because I believed in his vision.

I was just talking about mood around the team. It was not good. The players, the fans, it just seemed blah. 

21 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

IMO it starts with the guy wearing 73.  I do think that AV also has an effect in that as well - and that does reflect the primary Hextall shortcoming of Hackstol.

Do you mean #79? I honestly believe that Hextall would not have recalled Hart last year. Could be wrong, but his pattern tells me he would have found another 'solution.'

21 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Anyone who's "excited" about Niskanen and Braun should probably consult professional help.

Haha, I'm excited but need professional help for entirely different reasons.

I'm 'excited' that they can be the foils that allow Sanheim and Provy to play with more confidence, to learn from vets who have either won it all or come very close, and to play with actual talented defensemen.

21 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

That said, Hextall came in with a five year plan and was canned in Y4 after which other were able to reap the benefits of the ground he prepared. As mojo said, the half-rebuild wasn't pretty and really didn't accomplish the "goal" of being "definitely a playoff team".  I hated watching them to the extent that I pretty much checked out early last season.

Completely agree. Fletch doesn't Fletch without Hextall laying the (very tedious but necessary) groundwork.

21 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

And, yes, I've watched all of both games so far this year.

 

 

Just to speak to some of this:

 

Weal - came over when Hextall ditched the Ghost of VLC (*cough* Holmgren *cough*)

Weise/Gordon - unquestioned mistakes, but nothing that locked down huge salary for term

Lehtera - may I introduce you to Morgan Frost and Joel Farabee?

Gudas - a more than serviceable NHL player who came over in the trade that included a pick that was traded for... Travis Konecny

AMac - a great example of Holmgren's influence...

 

I get all the nuances, and my position is also very nuanced. I'm not criticizing Hextall per se - as I was kind bummed when he was canned - I'm just pointing out the very noticeable difference in mood. There are a lot of factors that have contributed to the turnaround. Some of it is personnel (AV speaks with the right amount of authority, hard-assery, and humour), some is personality (micromanager, compartmentalized groups vs what appears to be a more collegiate atmosphere), etc. 

@ruxpin @mojo1917

Just to be clear, all I meant was the somber mood that seemed to be around the franchise with Hextall at the helm. He absolutely drafted well - probably the best run in the franchise's history - and he moved out deadweight, cleared salary, and chose to try and rebuild the team from within. He handed out smart contracts. I love Hextall the player, and was totally onboard with Hextall the GM. 

But I have to admit that the negativity was palpable the last few years when seemingly no progress was being made (and *I* know that time was needed). The team was no fun to watch - partly because they just didn't have enough mature talent on the roster, and partly because they kids were either not in the NHL yet or most of those that were were still in the learning process.

Also, Hakstol. 

The mood is different around the team this year, and that starts with Fletch. Hayes, Niskanen, and Braun are different beasts than Weal/Weise/Lehtera and Gudas and AMac. 

It's only two games, but this team looks fun and loose. 

1 minute ago, ruxpin said:

This is a much better angle than the live angle, but the slow-motion doesn't do it justice. The live speed was "oh my God, what the hell just happened?  How was that possible?"

 

Great pass, great shot, but an OMG save.

The game really had a playoff feel last night. Fans are hopeful again. Players seem energized and connected.

I don;t think we can understate the damage Hextall did to the franchise. I was reading a bit from a STH that mentioned just how many things were stopped under Hextall and are now reappearing (things like discounts, meet and greet events, social activities, access, etc). On top of that, he was icing a terrible product to watch.

The dark cloud around the franchise seems to be lifting.

Gritty is a stroke of genius. I imagine it must have been a hard sell and taken someone who just truly truly believed that it was the right approach for a mascot. 

Nailed it.