PhilsFanDrew

@OccamsRazor

Also fair to point out the level of competition the Flyers were racking up points in that stretch wasn't very stiff.   I think that more than Raffl's play helped G and Jake's production.  

I have a thought that can't possibly be proven one way or another... But I'll spout it anyway. In another thread we discussed whether the caps were more about marketing and profit, or actually winning the Cup. With so much drama in and around your organization and its fan base, is there a chance the moves that get made, top name signings, patchwork free agency... Are done to stay competitive and make money? Rather than actual pursuit if the Cup? Not wanting a bad year or two to cause a loss of profits?

 I think Snider wants to win another Cup as much or more than profit.   As much as Snider loves to make money he also likes his ego stroked and wants to keep a sterling legacy in Philadelphia.   Winning the Cup again would do both for him.    I honestly think Snider's mentality is field the best on paper lineup that his money can buy and hope that the more often you are in the playoffs, the more chances you have to break through and go all the way.   I don't agree with this philosophy but that has been the Flyer way. 

Well the Flyers did steal their goal song (Bro Hymn) a few years back.  If its good for the goose...

Great blog MC!!

 

1.  I'm in favor of trading one of our defensive minded d-men (Grossman) and a pick if needed to acquire an almost NHL ready AHL defenseman.  Why wait for 17-18yr olds.  Why not at least look for one that has spent some top quality minutes in the AHL ?

 

2.. I disagree on this point of the need for a top line winger.  Raffl in a sense is a perfect compliment to Giroux and Jake.  His passes are spot on, and his work ethic is probably one of the best on the team.  I do think people forget he is a rookie.  Giroux and Jake need to be the ones scoring the goals, not Giroux and Jake setting up another talented winger.  Look at Pittsburgh for example of the Crosby - Kunitz - Dupuis line.  Raffl is a Dupuis clone - he is that guy who digs out the pucks along the boards and feeds them to his centerman.  It is up to Giroux and Jake to score the majority of the goals on this line.  Giroux and Jake just need to shoot the puck more.

 

3.  I really don't mind Vinny playing minutes at wing and center, yeah he has had some up and down moments throughout the year, but the team is far better off with him than without him.

The hole in your argument is that Giroux is not Crosby, he's not that type of player that can automatically make average players around him better.  Raffl while I agree is young and a rookie is not a natural goal scorer and he doesn't belong on the 1st line.   Trying to say that G and Jake need to be the ones scoring the goals is the square peg, round hole dilemmna.   G and Jake are natural playmakers.   It would be like the Flyers wanting Simon Gagne in his prime to be more of a playmaker when his strength is shooting.  Players need to be assigned roles and put in positions that play to their strengths.   Giroux while I think is a star in this league is not a superstar like Crosby and needs another star (ideally a goal scorer) on his wing to get the most production out of him. 

@radoran

Moulson is an intriguing name.   He has been a consistent 30 goal scorer.  His contract expires at $3.9 million.  He's going to expect a pay bump so I'd try to sign him for $5.25, 4 years.   I wouldn't go much higher than that.    

For the most part I agree with you. Your estimation of one of the glaring failures of the general manager is likewise well taken.

 

But I think many might feel differently if he was making $6.5-$7M (Joe Thornton) for the next five years instead of $8+M for the next eight.

 

And there is the point that Joe Thornton has yet to win a Conference Championship, much less a Cup.

 

Giroux is a talented player, but he's more on the Simon Gagne side of talented player (needing a catalyst (Forsberg/Jagr) to be a top producer) than a Sidney Crosby (makes Pascal Dupuis an actual threat).

Actually I think if Giroux had a winger like Gagne in his prime he puts up over 100 pts a season.   Heck I don't even think Giroux needs a 40+ goal scorer on his line to break 100 pts.   He needs wingers than can pot 25-30 goals.   I agree that he is not in the class of a Crosby who can make average players around him that much better but I do believe with the right pieces around him he would consistently meet or exceed his 93 pts career high. 

@flyercanuck

Agreed.  Even if you don't have the best defensive scouting if you have enough draft picks the law of averages would suggest you are going to hit on someone. 

I Feel Bad For You To Have To Pay To Watch This. Someone Gave Me A Game Against The Preds On1/17 With Parking. The Seats Were 159.00 Per Ticket. I Wound Up Selling Them Both For 150.00 And It Wasn't Easy...

The ticket prices are outrageous anymore.  I remember a couple years back going to a Pens/Flyers playoff game and I got upper level tickets maybe 9th row on Stub Hub and paid more than face value.  Today that same seat is more in face value for a regular season game than I paid 2nd hand with markup for a playoff game. 

I want to bring one more point about Giroux, in the table below he has the worst +- (-7), it's telling me he is not really good in defense as well, so as said before he is not making better players around him. Just look Pavel has +21 !!!!

 

1 Martin St. Louis TBL R 48 17 43 60 +0 14 3 0 2 0 112 15.2 21:59 23.9 42.8

2 Steven Stamkos TBL C 48 29 28 57 -4 32 10 0 2 0 157 18.5 22:01 24.3 49.6

3 Alex Ovechkin WSH R 48 32 24 56 +2 36 16 0 4 0 220 14.5 20:53 21.4 0.0

4 Sidney Crosby PIT C 36 15 41 56 +26 16 3 0 1 0 124 12.1 21:06 22.8 54.3

5 Patrick Kane CHI R 47 23 32 55 +11 8 8 0 3 0 138 16.7 20:03 23.1 20.0

6 Eric Staal CAR C 48 18 35 53 +5 54 3 1 4 0 152 11.8 20:59 26.3 52.0

7 Chris Kunitz PIT L 48 22 30 52 +30 39 9 0 5 0 113 19.5 18:01 20.4 44.4

8 Phil Kessel TOR C 48 20 32 52 -3 18 6 0 4 0 161 12.4 19:48 23.9 62.5

9 Taylor Hall EDM L 45 16 34 50 +5 33 4 0 4 0 154 10.4 18:37 22.6 54.7

10 Pavel Datsyuk DET C 47 15 34 49 +21 14 8 0 6 2 107 14.0 20:10 25.3 55.0

11 Ryan Getzlaf ANA C 44 15 34 49 +14 41 4 3 3 0 99 15.2 20:11 24.2 48.0

12 Mike Ribeiro WSH C 48 13 36 49 -4 53 6 0 1 0 63 20.6 17:50 20.3 44.8

13 Jonathan Toews CHI C 47 23 25 48 +28 27 2 2 5 0 143 16.1 19:20 25.0 59.9

14 Claude Giroux PHI C 48 13 35 48 -7 22 6 1 2 0 137 9.5 21:10 26.1 54.5

15 Henrik Zetterberg DET L 46 11 37 48 +2 18 4 2 5 0 173 6.4 20:31 24.3 48.3

16 Nicklas Backstrom WSH C 48 8 40 48 +8 20 3 0 1 0 82 9.8 19:54 23.3 51.4

17 John Tavares NYI C 48 28 19 47 -2 18 9 0 5 0 162 17.3 20:46 22.3 49.4

18 Jakub Voracek PHI R 48 22 24 46 -7 35 8 0 3 0 129 17.1 17:14 21.1 40.0

19 Andrew Ladd WPG L 48 18 28 46 +10 22 3 0 4 0 121 14.9 19:40 24.2 53.7

20 Henrik Sedin VAN C 48 11 34 45 +19

These are numbers from last season.   Datsuyk is a -2 right now.   Just shows that no matter how well you are known for being a solid 2 way player you can still be a minus player on mediocre to bad defensive team.   

I don't want to come across as a Giroux apologist or make excuses for him because there are times this year I have been frustrated with his play.  

After a dreadful start to the season where he wasn't even close to a PPG pace he is now at 47 pts in 53 games.    That is playing mostly with Michael Raffl and Jake Voracek.   Raffl has no business being a 1st line player in this league and Voracek doesn't really compliment Giroux because he is a similar player looking to make plays not finish them.  

I understand the frustration of not getting the money's worth out of Giroux but I think some if not most of that has to fall on the GM for not getting the pieces to compliment him.   Ideally Giroux's numbers should be like Joe Thorton.   I understand they both play a different game but the bulk of Giroux's points should be assists not goals.   With the right pieces I believe he could easily be a 25-30 goal, 70+ assist player which would never make people question how much he makes. 

Couturier is playing very well on defense, but I don't think it's out of line for someone to say he might not be a top 6 guy one day.

My question is, "Was Couturier ever drafted to be a top 6 forward?"   Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't the buzz about him on draft day being a "Jordan Staal type" defensive first, shutdown 3rd line center with some offensive upside?   I'd say he's pacing himself to be that kind of player. 

 @OccamsRazor

+1.  I'm happy Homer hasn't made any rash moves.   Showing restraint and patience with a young core is a good thing.   The folly of the Flyers organization has always been the mindset that they are only 1 or 2 trades away from being a legit contender.   The meat isn't ready to go on the grill yet, its still marinating.  

I like it.   3 years is perfect, it shows committment that he is the starter going forward but leaves him incentive to play for a bigger deal since he is young.   Comparing to other past deals as far as money goes is irrelevant.   As others said the cap is anticipated to go up and when it does it so does the market price.  

@jammer2

Perfectly stated.   Meszaros is not going to be in Flyers plans for the future.   Gus may or may not be so its time to let him play on a regular basis and give him an actual look instead of this meandering approach they have taken so far.

Just to point out something...JVRs highest goal total - 4 years ago as a Flyer

 

                                              JVRs highest assist total 5 years ago as a Flyer

 

I'm sure he'll pass those numbers this season. As of yet.....he hasn't.

Come on man he was 3 goals under his career high in only 48 games played.   His career high mark was in 75 games, he was clearly on pace to having his best season as a pro last year. 

IMO if you undo the trades and Richards and Carter are back I don't see this team being much better than what they are.   The major blows have been losing Pronger to injury, Carle in free agency, and Timonen declining due to age.    That is a #1, #2, and a strong puck moving defensemen that have not been replaced.    

Yea I can hear it now, Carter missed the net and didn't put a puck high enough to send game 7 vs Chitown, but if you's re remember Richards and Carter were the Guys why Flyers has ended up in Cup finals

I disagree.  Guys like Briere, Leino, Hartnell, Pronger, and yes even Leighton had much more of an impact on getting the Flyers to the Finals in 2010.   Richards was ok but everyone overrates his performance because of "the shift".  Yeah it was a great individual play from start to finish and it made for a nice cutesy "History Will be Made" commercial but it really was a bad misplay by Halak and a fortunate bounce right up to his stick.  

One thing for sure, the Kings still would have had a world class goalie in Quick and a Stanley Cup caliber defense regardless of those deals.

Totally agree and if we had Richards and Carter we would still be without Chris Pronger and Matt Carle.  The injury and loss of a legit #1 D-man and our best puck moving D-man in my opinion is the bigger reason why the Flyers haven't been able to sustain success and be a legit contender.   Also factor in the Snider panicked and traded away a young athletic goalie with lots of promise and forced Homer to sign an albatross contract to a mentally unstable weirdo.   

Which makes JVR's trade look even more stupid than it actually is.  Again, I don't really regret trading him per se, as much as the return and value - or the lack thereof - which Homer brought.  I just can't imagine why and how JVR and Bob could not be packaged in a deal that would get the Flyers one solid defenseman.  Instead, we lost both of those guys essentially for nothing.  Great job, Homer.

I think you are taking what JVR and Bob did last year and projecting that on to what a trade would have fetched for the Flyers.  The problem is they never had that level of individual success with the Flyers like they did with TOR and CBJ respectively.  Also it is very difficult to package a trade like that with a goalie.   Perhaps there were teams out there that would have moved a steady D man for JVR and another forward but had no need for Bob.  

I wanna see how they start doing against better teams.    Lets be honest out of their recent stretch of games they haven't played many really good teams.   Vancouver was probably the best team they played on the road trip and it was a game they were outplayed. Fortunately Mason was able to steal that one for them.    Tomorrow should be a good test.   They have recently struggled against the Bolts and TB is a top 3 team in the East.   I'm not trying to poo poo what they have done just trying to keep things in perspective.   I like the way the team is going but they aren't a legit contender yet. 

I will predominately be watching the Eagles game.   Maybe at half time I will throw on the game for a few minutes until the 2nd half begins.   I actually consider myself more a Flyers fan than Eagles fan but the Phoenix/Flyers matchup does not intrigue me.   Perhaps if it were Flyers/Pens or Flyers/Rags, etc I would be switching back and forth between both but its going to be 90/10 Eagles/Flyers tonight. 

@radoran

Funny you call JVR a "30 goal scorer" even though he has never reached 30 in his career.   I understand he's on pace to do so this year and that he is still young and hasn't entered his prime so there is definitely the possibility that he will consistently put up 30+.  It is also possible for him to go the other way.  Last year was a lockout year, and this year they are 1/2 way through.   So out of 4 years in the NHL if you mesh last season into the 1st half of this season he has had one really good season.   I'm not saying he's a fluke or suggesting that he won't turn into the consistent 30 goal scorer.   I just think there isn't enough there to suggest its a sure thing.   The only one thing that is definitely certain is that Toronto has won the trade as L Schenn has yet to be the player the Flyers thought they were getting. 

That's what surprises me so much on this comparison.  You've never been one to do it.  

 

After tonight's game, Maatta becomes ineligible for return to the London Knights.  He'll have 40 games in the NHL.  I just don't see how anyone can refer to a starting NHL defenseman who has started every single game 39 games into a season as a "prospect".  They stop being a prospect when they become NHL regulars.  And if Laughton is doing so well, and is so comparable, why wasn't he called up when Lacavalier went down?  Because he needs the time in the OHL yet.  Kudos to the Flyers for not rushing him along.  but kudos to Maatta for being able and ready to play at so young an age.  

 

"Regardless of whether or not he ends up with any hardware at the end of this campaign, there's absolutely no denying that the Penguins landed another special player in the waning selections of the first round when they picked Maatta at No. 22 in 2012."

Because they are stacked at center.   You just keep Giroux on 1, Move B Schenn from wing to C on the 2nd line, and keep Couts on 3, Hall on 4.   With Vinny in the line up they move Schenn to mostly play wing which is not his natural position. 

It should have been a 2 minute penalty...nothing more...Versteeg hammed it Barnaby style trying to draw the call. Did you see how quickly he got up as soon as he realized no call was coming? It was and should have been called but the flop in this case actually kept the refs arm down....you could see him intentionally look away as Versteeg hammed it up for the camera.

I agree.  I've seen worse at faster speed into the boards that was nothing more than a 2 minute roughing penalty.  I don't think a suspension is warranted but wouldn't be surprised to see him get at least 2 games because the NHL is a sham league anymore.   

Richards was essentially the teams' first line center at that point in his career.

 

Schenn's playing second line wing.

 

Just a bit of apples and oranges there.

 

BSchenn is among the "least of our worries" at the moment, but if the Simmonds/BSchenn/Voracek/Couturier group doesn't step it up, the trades start looking less and less attractive in retrospect.

 

They traded established players for potential, and it's time that they live up to the potential.

 

The established guys that left have already won a Cup.

I agree that they need to start living up to potential but I don't buy into the whole "Well Richards and Carter won a cup so its a bad trade" argument either.   At least if Simmonds, Schenn, Voracek, Couts don't work out they can eventually move on relatively soon.   All of those players are tradeable and don't have albatross contracts.   If you kept Richards and Carter you are stuck with them for many years.   That can be a good or bad thing.   Although being made the cornerstones of the franchise it did not appear they were handling it well following the Stanley Cup appearance in 2010.   They did much better when they were brought on in supporting roles for LA. 

I wouldn't press the luck banking on the whole "change of scenery" approach.   Its great that Mason looks like he has revamped his career in Philly but its wrong to assume that would be the case with Myers.   The other difference is getting Mason in the fold was a low risk, high reward move.   Going after Myers would be high risk, low, moderate to maybe high reward.   Its a lot of risk and you don't really know what you are getting long term.   The moves this team makes going forward the next 2 seasons cannot be gambles.