radoran

Like everyone else, if you don't do the job you were hired to do, you can be 'fired'.

But we've had the "professional athletes aren't 'like everybody else'" talk quite a few times. You can't simply say "they're just like the average worker" because they aren't.

Moreover, how many times have the Flyers found themselves paying 2, 3, 4 coaches at a time? No, it doesn't affect the cap, but it's a contract just the same.

Your point about the GM's offering these ridiculous contracts is the cogent one. Yet, after long-term deal after long-term deal, the guys who signed the deals keep leaving and the guy who keeps offering them keeps his job...

@radoran

and you're right. imo, though, that is looking at the statistics in a vacume. from what i've seen of him over the years, bryzgalov has two main weaknesses. 1. he likes to punt rebounds back into the slot, and 2. he has a tough time adjusting to skaters trailing the play. a team that makes a point of clearing his rebounds and designs their defense to specifically cover trailers (sometimes at the risk of softer coverage deep, as bryzgalov is actually pretty good in goalmouth situations) drastically increase bryzgalov's chances of putting up good numbers. to me, these were things pheonix did well, while philly really doesn't. i see the same goalie facing more of the plays he has trouble handling. i don't expect his part in that to change, he isn't suddenly going to become fleet of foot or a genius with rebound control. if there is going to be an improvement, it is going to have to come from laviolette adjusting defensive coverage to compliment the guy in goal.

js giguerre was the same way in anaheim. he had things he was good at, and things he wasn't. when they won their cup, the ducks' D played the game specifically to his strengths, and basically erased his weaknesses. watching pronger/niedermayer/beauchemin/o'donnel just completely lockdown cross ice plays (that JSG couldn't even pretend to keep up with) was impressive, and was, imo, key to their cup. that d corps was dismantled over the next few years, and JSG was exposed as the overpaid michelin man he was/is.

i dunno. i don't mean to get down on bryzgalov too much, but he is what he is. i think flyers fans have come to assume that the inconsistent goaltending we have had forever is because we didn't have a "real" goalie...but the fact is, it is the nature of the position. the kind of inhumanly consistent play out of thomas for the last seaon and a half has been bizarre to a historic degree. what we're seeing out of bryzgalov is what most teams see out their goalies over the course of a season: ups, downs, soft goals, big saves. by year's end, assuming no more 5 game meltdowns, bryzgalov will be right there in the top 15 goalies in the league, statistically speaking. that doesn't excuse his top 3 goalie salary, but that's an entirely different thing.

It seems you & I are on the same page with Bryz.

I'm from the camp that if you want to be upset with Bryz for his play because of what you were told when he was signed, I suggest you first talk with the person who told you all that stuff.

Any goalie is generally made better or worse by the defense in front of him. This isn't an excuse. It's a solid fact.

I think different players react... differently.

You wouldn't say that Alexandre Daigle was better because he played junior, ready to take on the slings and arrows of a full NHL season.

How about Pat Falloon?

I'm not saying JVR *wouldn't* have benefitted from a different way of "learning" hockey. Just that there's no real "slam dunk" for it.

@radoran

very similar to this year. only real difference is his 4-5 game big slump came in late december last season, mid october this season. we'll see, but, imo wysiwyg. overall, he hasn't played all that poorly this season, but i woudn't hold my breath for a huge shift from what we've seen for the last month. for good or ill.

I've been following Bryz on an FHL angle for a while so I'm familiar with his play and career.

However, I count 13 4+ goal games in 67 starts last season. He has 8 in 23 starts this season. I see obvious room for improvement. He's "on pace" for nearly double the number of 4+ goal games he had last year.

I'll also say that if the Flyers wind up giving up 35 shots a game in the postseason (as Phoenix did last year - 36-31-34-39) then it won't really matter...

I would never cheer for Jar Jar Binks.

@926

with regard to briere he had some injury problems during his first years here too, but then he brought it in the playoffs and people gave the little guy some slack. because he's a ******* stone cold killer when it matters.

And we'll see if Bryz has that in him. I'm not taking his experience on a 7/8 seed going up against the tops in the Western Conference for the Coyotes as the be all and end all of his playoff experience. If he shuts down teams in the playoffs - and the Flyers manage to score more than twice in a five game series - I like the chances.

@926

The main issue is consistency - and an ancillary issue is play at home. He needs to post a string of 1.95/.926 games at home - and the team needs to play better at home in front of him - to quiet the detractors.

But, honestly, yeah - I'm frustrated with how his play has been in the first half of this season. I hope it will improve and I expect it to.

There is not a person on this board, I'll wager, who is sticking it to Bryz now, that won't be happily celebrating a Cup, if it happens.

@Vincent05

I don't disagree with a thing you have written in that last post.

@radoran I totally (like, totally) see your point and understand it. It's a shame that the narrative around the Flyer goalie history is so overwhelming that a team has to go out and do that to appease it.

And ironic that it actually fans the flames of those demons in the end, so that we will perpetually be looking for that savior and making the same mistake again and again. ******* sad man.

Wow, cool window just opened up asking me if I wanted to see the latest post. Nice work @Digityman!

The backup goaltender is always one of the most favorite Flyers for fans.

Until he becomes the starter.

I understand the frustration with Bryz. Hell, I'm frustrated with Bryz.

But that doesn't mean that Bobrovsky or Leighton would do any better in this situation. Yes, they're paid less. That's about it. Bob's numbers are virtually the same as Bryz' and Leighton is, well, Leighton and if I never see him in a Flyers jersey again it will be too soon.

All we can really do is wait to see if Bryz gets it together. This team "should" make the playoffs. That's where I'll "judge" Bryz this season.

Funny, I don't see Emery as part of that circus. The dates may be against me but I just "feel" like he was removed from 99% of that crap-ola, the shuffling, the goalie-go-round.

He was part and parcel of it - they brought him in at the start of the 09-10 season and also signed.... Brian Boucher to back up.

Emery went down and they... claimed Michael Leighton off waivers.

at the end of the season they signed... Sergei Bobrovsky.

The year before Emery was Biron.

Emery would have been another "roll the dice' type move, IMO, for the Flyers' goaltending. This is not - again apparently and allegedly - what Mr. Snider had in mind...

I'm hard pressed to disagree with much that @canoli

Thing is, Snider (apparently and allegedly) wanted a solid "end" to the goalie carousel debate.

Bringing back Emery, who was already a part of that same carousel, would not likely have been seen to do that.

I don't like how this organization addresses what it considers "problems" - whether the "must have #1 C" that turned into Briere or the "big vet defenseman" that became Pronger or the "gotta have #1 G" that became Bryzgalov.

Overreactions and bad decisions, IMO.

you're right Rad, I oversimplified it with the "there shouldn't be guaranteed money." But the NFL does it don't they? (I'm actually asking, I don't follow the NFL much) But they don't guarantee money to players do they? I thought they operate under performance bonuses mostly, and the contracts only pay off when a guy performs up to what was set out in the contract.

I'm winging it here I admit. I know there's a major difference between NFL and NHL contracts. Somebody who really knows can chime in maybe...

The NFL doesn't have "guaranteed contracts" which is why guys get such ridiculous "signing bonuses". Often players have no real expectation of being with a team for the entire length of the deal signed. I don't think most people expect Vick to play out his whole deal, for example.

There are performance bonuses - as there are in hockey. I don't know the specifics. I believe the NHL's CBA severely limits what bonuses can be paid on and the amount they can be within a contract. I don't think the NHLPA wants 100% "performance-based" contracts.

It starts to get harder to calculate, too - once you take into account "intangibles" which IMO are more important in hockey. You don't have to be a 30-goal scorer to be a valuable asset to your team. Properly compensating that on a performance based contract is important.

Would I *like* Bryz to stop more in the shootout? Of course.

That said, Giguere didn't make any stops in the shootout, either - and if Read's shot was an inch lower...

Does it matter to me if he's no good in the carny game they run to award an extra point and giant stuffed bear during the regular season if he puts up 1.95/.926 in the playoffs? No.

I like the player. Don't like the contract - amount or length. But I'm not going to do final evaluations before for the first half of the first season of the deal is done.

Essentially - if they win the Cup in June, I don't care how many shootouts in December they lose.

I'm just of the opinion that a goalie who put up 1.95/.926 doesn't necessarily "******* SUCK" because of a bad performance in a carny game.

YMMV

Guys complain about "long-term contract" but tell me, what is the alternative? You want marquee names and impact players? Well they command high salaries. The only way to fit mega-million dollar salaries under the cap is to extend them over multiple years.

Ideally none of these guys would have guaranteed money - it's bullsh!t. We've seen it so often it's disgusting: a guy signs the big deal and then suddenly looks half-ass out on the ice. Maybe it's not even a conscious decision on his part, but all of a sudden he's a multi-millionaire at 22 years old, it's almost natural he slacks off his job and tries to enjoy the new high life.

I don't think 3-5 year deals are at all unreasonable.

It's the 9, 12, 15 year ones that start getting ridiculous. I think six is even pushing it.

The guaranteed money aspect works both ways. You are aaking players to literally risk life and limb out on the ice. At any given time, their career could end. And they have higher rates of post-career trauma (to joints, brain, etc.).

I wouldn't mind some sort of system where there is a defined pension and benefits for injured players who are forced out of a contract, but in lieu of that, I don't see it happening.

I hear you, but *if* it comes down to a decision between Voracek and JVR being moved, Homer will move Voracek. I still don't understand the 6 year extension, but it is what it is. I wouldn't even give Giroux 6 years. It's too long.

I love what Briere brings in the playoffs, and he consistently puts up close to a PPG during the regular season, but 4 years would have been perfect. Instead, we still have another 4 years @$6.5M per with a 35 year old player who will in all likelihood begin a decline.

Three years after this one. Briere's up in 2015. As I read it, he'll be 37. It's definitely a worry with a smaller player.

GMs got all hot and bothered with these long term contracts allowing for lower cap numbers, but they missed the point that these are LONG TERM contracts.

More often than not, these contracts are counterproductive for the player (see: Ovechkin, Alex) and bad for the team (see: Bryzgalov, Ilya)

Buy Bryz out? Sure. Take a $2.8M cap hit each year FOR THE NEXT SIXTEEN YEARS.

Would not surprise me at all to see JVR shipped out at the trade deadline. Not. At. All. He's still got some serious value, is locked up for six years and has a fairly reasonable cap number for some Columbus-type squad needing to make sure they're near the salary floor.

Yes so they can buy him out on the next CBA if there is one. I rather see Bob play and develope, let Bryz rot on the bench.

I would be surprised if there is another "free buyout" provision in a new CBA. Not completely shocked, but surprised.

Even then, I'm not sure that Comcast puts out $45M for absolutely nothing in that circumstance, but it's good to dream.

A regular buyout would be an almost $3M cap hit - for the next 16 years.

I'll stick with hoping he plays to the level expected and if some bolt from the blue appears to change everything, I won't mind at all.

@radoran

JVRs would have been a slapper had he heeded Holmgrens advice and played junior.

I'll take a wrister if it also gives us the beauty of that shootout goal. That was a dominant move. He needs more of that in his game play.

JVRs was a wrist shot. But hartnells was all slapper.

I *knew* someone was going to say that ;-)

I just wish his goal calls didn't all sound like they were proud of the puppy's accomplishments.

"Oh, look at Jody Shelley and the nice shiny goal he found!"

It's a nice goal. Against Atlanta. Last season.

JVR & Hartnell beat Miller. Last month.

OK, to give credit where due - and I did look this up - Shelley had the first goal of a 5-2 win, so it was a meaningful score.

JVR & Hartnell were 2 and 3 in 7 minutes against Ryan Miller.

I'll go with the latter if not trying to build a guy up for the waiver wire...

honestly I don't remember, but then, those shots clearly did not make a lasting impression on Laviolette either.

I remember them quite clearly. Two goals on Miller in the first two minutes with JVR powering down the boards and launching a slap shot to beat Miller high glove side just under the crossbar.

A few minutes later Hartnell comes down the same side and from virtually the same position - he later said "I saw JVR do it" (paraphrase) - and beat Miller again, chasing him from the game.

If Laviolette is going to a Shelley slap shot, it's for a purpose.

1.95/.926 is an indication of lack of focus? of concentration?

There are times that it's quite legitimate to criticize a goalie. After a night of 1.95/.926 with the tying goal coming off two own-skates is NOT the legitimate time.

@radoran I am with you on wanting him to play up to his contract but I also feel justified in prodding him a little bit too......

Prod away - I prod when needed.

But when a goalie goes out and puts up 1.95/.926 and the game-tying goal is a behind the line deflection of a pass off two own-skates - I'll just opine is NOT the time to do it...

Would be funny if Bryz plays himself to the bench and Bob gets the start. I can only hope.

You can only hope that the Flyers' major goalie acquisition crashes and burns into a nine year total disaster in the first half season of the deal?

I kinda hope he gets it together and plays better consistently, myself...

YMMV

Kipper gave up four goals in his last start - following a five goal outing in the game before. That's nine goals in two games from a $5.8M goaltender. It's the sixth time this season - more than 20% of his starts - that he's given up four or more goals.

Kipper's .910 SV% is respectable, I guess, but a 2.54 GAA is simply too high for a #1 caliber goalie. He's eating up 10% of the cap space.

PLUS, in five of his past eight starts, he's posted a sub-.900 SV%. Sheeya they were 4-2-2, but that's really just .500. True stories.

He's also just one win over .500 for the season 14-11-2 (14-13 duh).

This is unacceptable. This sort of performance has obviously nothing to do with the team playing in front of him. It's all on Kipper.

This six-year contract has been nothing but a millstone on the Flames' franchise. He's supposed to be a shut-down, elite #1 goalie. I'm just not seeing that in December, 2011. And we've got two more years of this.

Karlsson should play more. He just needs a chance to recover his 2.58/.908 form from last season and blossom. Heck, that's almost the same numbers as Kipper but at 15% the salary! KA-CHING!

Or maybe the Flames should consider trading with the Flyers to pick up Leighton because Karlsson's injured. Maybe send Iginla to Philly for him? The Flames need a top-flight goalie rightnow and Leighton has the playoff experience of playing in the Stanley Cup Finals. For reals.

</ snark>

In other news, yes, I own Kipper in NAHANA.

after a slow start Voracek has really turned it on! I wasn't expecting to be this pleased with him. What a pass to Hartnell there, in such close quarters and not much time to think, yet he made it look like it was nothing!

Laviolette has said that one of the good things about the injury situation is that he's been able to give more time to Voracek - and I think Voracek is showing why he was a top 10 pick.

He's gone from the 15-minute range into the mid-20s and has looked pretty good doing it.

Sounds like you are reaching to me. Are you really that upset that your goalie is into space and a deep thinker when it comes to our existence. Ever heard of Star Wars or Star Trek?

There are millions of people out there who like outer space stuff, I think you are being unfair to the guy and overly critical.

It's not like Bryzgalov hasn't been kinda hippy-dippy for his entire career. This isn't something that just came up.

If the Flyers were at all put off by that during their interviews (which I assume they conducted as part of their due diligence on a 9-year, 10%-cap space deal) they shouldn't have made the deal.

But they did. Goalies are infamous for being head cases. All of them.

There's more than enough to criticize and seek improvement on in Bryz's on-ice play. To get wrapped up on postgame interviews and 24/7 comments is, to me, losing focus.

bryzgalov has a joke of a contract and he doesn't have another gear that we should wait to see, he is what he is and the flyers need to be good enough to overcome his shortcomings. the flyers couldn't find their way against a thin but motivated team in colorado, and bryzgalov's performance just reflected that.

The Flyers play like warmed over dogmeat against Boston and it's Bryzgalov's fault they lost.

Bryzgalov puts up 1.95/.926 against Colorado and it's Bryzgalov's fault they lost.

Nobody likes Bryzgalov's contract, but it's like "water being wet" - it is what it is. We can't change it. In fact, with the NMC, the only person who *can* change it is... Bryzgalov.

Bobrovsky isn't going to "take over." Leighton isn't going to be given the reins (thank GOD). Boucher's got a two-year deal in Carolina.

It's mind-boggling to me, but Ed Snider apparently tapped a Russian goalie to be "His Guy" for the Cup.

Bryzgalov does need to play better. The whole TEAM needs to play better. And yet they're second in the conference with the third most points in the league.

It's rough being so awful.