radoran

I think there's no question we got the better of the Crater deal. No question whatsoever.

I don't know that I give up the #8 for Crater along, much less the #8 AND Voracek (#7 overall).

This is clearly the right place and the right time for Voracek, with Jagr coming back. I'd like to hope this guy blossoms.

IMO Columbus needs someone who knows more about hockey running their hockey operations.

Aside from Ashbee, I don't think the Flyers have retired any number of a player who is not in the Hockey Hall of Fame. And Ashbee's clearly a special case.

There are 11 people related to the Flyers in the Hall - and you wouldn't really count Allan Stanley, Darryl Sittler, Paul Coffey or Dale Hawerchuk as "Flyers" first.

That leaves Clarke, Barber and Parent (along with Snider, Keith Allen, Gene Hart) and now Mark Howe.

Howe is the first Flyer player to have his number retired who didn't win a Cup, though. I have a feeling we'll see a few more in the next few decades...

I think Hextall is a prime candidate and, of course, I'd advocate for JLC :-)

Rad- you really need to watch that video again. Lucic loses control of the puck and is in full speed pursuit. Miller comes out to try and get the puck first- and does. He quickly flips the puck to the boards- just as Lucic gets there and gets nailed. To me its a completely legit hockey play.

I scrolled up and rewatched several times before posting.

Lucic clearly is pursuing the puck as he crosses the blue line. As he nears Miller (before the top of the circle, with Miller approaching the dot) he moves his stick to the left - away from the puck - and clearly slams directly into Miller.

He even stops moving his skates.

He is not pursuing the puck at that point - he's lining Miller up from the top of the circle to the dot.

It's a legit hockey play on *any player but the goalie* because Lucic knows damn well that he's not going to take a hit from Miller. He knows that Miller's not going to attempt to do anything like stickhandle - he's simply going to clear the puck aside.

Lucic doesn't even follow the puck AFTER MILLER HITS IT - he's STILL looking at Miller on the ice with the puck near the boards BEHIND HIM.

If Lucic comes in with his stick on the ice hoping for a Miller whiff on the puck, that's one thing.

He's not. He'd clearly given up on puck pursuit and clearly, IMO, intended to hit Miller..

We're getting into split-second, freeze-frame territory here aren't we? This stuff is happening pdq. And I'm not so sure it was a penalty had it been 2 skaters.

Miller dumps the puck just before Lucic is on top of him; "Miller didn't have the puck" isn't a compelling argument in this case. He did have the puck, literally a split-second before the hit.

Did Lucic know he wouldn't get there in time to prevent Miller dumping it? Sure, I'll bet he did. Lucic wanted to hit Miller, simple as that. With all the scrapping those 2 were doing the whole game it's understandable. And let's face it Miller has always had an "active stick." He's good at bringing out the nasty in defenders and then complaining about it after the game.

Maybe this was beyond "incidental" but it was close. If that had been 2 skaters going for the puck I really doubt anything would've been called.

It's a fast game. That's the whole point. But, everyone knows how fast it is - including the players.

Lucic knew he wasn't going to get to the puck and he took the opportunity to take a shot at Miller.

If it had been a defenseman? An interesting question. I don't think that any part of the play happens the same way. A defenseman would be expected to be able to either play or possess and move the puck or deliver a hit right back and Lucic would have to play that - or at least acknowledge that - when it's quite clear that a goalie (Miller) won't be doing anything but clearing the puck.

Look at Lucic's stick - is this a guy who is playing for the puck if Miller whiffs on the pass? No. Lucic has lined Miller up "long before" (in split second terms) he gets there.

Shanahan may have said that Lucic didn't "intend" to hit Miller - but if he didn't, I'm not sure what else he was "intending" to do.

He could have made a move to avoid the contact with the goalie.

He could have made an attempt to play the puck.

He did neither of these things, paying no attention to the puck whatsoever, and slammed into Miller head-on, bringing his arms up as the impact occurred.

If the *didn't* "intend" to hit Miller, just what the hell was he "intending" to do there?

i kind of mostly agree here but with this twist,

I think he's confident in his positioning and that keeps him quieter in the crease. and when his confidence is bad or his positioning is bad we see quotes like "i am lost in the woods" i don't see him battling during those scrums though, maybe it has something to do with his size, along the lines of once he's down that's a lot of gear to pick up.

I think that that confidence gives the team more confidence. They don't see a guy frequently out of position trying to leap across an open net trying to make a mid-air stick save.

Ah, memories...

I like Bryz's size as well. It doesn't seem to me that he feels the need to drop into a butterfly at the drop of a hat and takes up some nice area when he does.

The odd goal flinging off the tip of a defenseman's stick or backside is one thing. But that's been happening an awful lot. Just spitballing here, but could the D be trying to do "too much" - are they conditioned by the less-than-marquee goaltending we've had around here to try to do too much, possibly creating the defelction that gets by the goalie who's in position to make the original stop?

That happens "all the time" as well - it's just happened an awful lot in these first dozen games.

The only terribly *bizarre* thing to me about the whole Bryz thing is that they're putting what's likely to be Ed Snider's final Cup shot (nine-year contract) on, of all things, a Russian goalie. Two of them, no less.

Well, you knew they weren't going Czech again...

The only thing making a goalie "fair game" in this situation will do is improve Michael Leighton's job prospects.

A player is "fair game" when he has control of the puck and is skating with it - not the case here. You can't just willy-nilly barrel into players. Doubly so for goalies - and that's the way the game is called, not the way I made it. "Should" it be different? Makes no difference. It's not different.

Lucic made no attempt to play the puck OR avoid the hit. It was intentional and a penalty - regardless of who got hit or where the hit occurred.

It was a cheap hit from a cheap player.

This is exactly the unnecessary contact that the league has been trying to get out of the game - for the health of the players involved.

If Miller is carrying the puck, he's fair game. If he's playing it to the corner - he's not.

As much as I agree with the "stay in the crease" argument, this is not a situation in which that applies. This is a charging call on anybody.

Lucic doesn't try to play the puck at all and deliberately goes for the hit high on Miller. To me, that's "intent to injure". What other intent could it be?

I may, in fact, be having a little Winter Classic soiree at my house in South Philly. Depends on a few things being repaired/finished.

Will keep y'all apprised...

Well, the thing with Bryz is - he ain't going no where. I like Bryz. I'm still not sure about the deal. It's not Shellyrific, but it's not Vokoun at $1.25M, either.

I don't think we can properly evaluate the signing of a nine-year deal in 12 starts and 13 appearances with a totally-revamped forward corps and a defense that's been, shall we say, a bit shaky at times? Not to mention missing Pronger for a few games.

I like the calmness of Bryzgalov in net. He doesn't have the flailing, flippy-floppy, skates-on-fire approach that we're used to around here. I think it helps the team and I know it makes me feel better.

Does he give up some bad goals? Does he have bad games? Everybody does. Everybody.

You just hope more of them are in September/October/November than March/April/May.

Miller needs to get his head in order and taking a few starts off might be good for him.

Those two back-to-back glove side goals to Hartnell and JVR were an indication that there's something really wrong.

Enroth looked solid and played well for them last season. He's not going to replace Miller by any stretch, though.

Yeah, they were so excited to have Carter here in Columbus. He was the final piece of the puzzle. Everything Nash needed. I tried to tell them on one of their blogs that Carter could end up being a major disappointment, that he wasn't going to be a panacea - based on my time watching him play for the Flyers. They didn't want to hear it. I think it's starting to sink in now, though. The Columbus paper is saying he could play in Thursday's game against the Hawks, though. First game back in like a month.

I warned my Buffalo friends about Leino, too.

Crater is not, nor has he ever been that I've seen, a "playmaker."

Was Leino injured?

Anyway, he was pretty invisible in the Buffalo/Flyers game last week.

I liked him, but as @radoran says, he is NOT a $4m/yr forward.

Leino isn't injured - but he's in Ruff's doghouse all right. Dropped him off the first line, then the second line. I think he was skating 4 for a few games.

Leino, IMO, needs stability in linemates and sustained playing time. He's not going to get it in Buffalo.

In 31 games Carter (zero goals in 5 games), Richards (2 goals in 13 games) and Leino (zero goals in 5 games) have 3 goals in 31 games conbined. Meanwhile we are averaging 4 goals a game. Interesting huh?? Anyone still miss them?

My reaction to the trades was "the Flyers got better, younger and cheaper" and I still feel that way.

Leino is NOT a $4M forward. Carter is NOT the playmaking center Rick Nash has been waiting for. Richards was NOT ready to be an NHL captain.

That said, those three are better than those stats and they will improve.

The only problem with the whole debacle is that Lindros should never have been captain

Another problem is that the Flyers didn't learn that lesson...

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=599197&cmpid=nhl-rxl-fb

"A big problem for the Blues this season has been special teams play. St. Louis is last in the League at just 7.5 percent on the power play"

I'm sure that'll be the "easiest thing to fix" down there...

They just need to make sure that they have a GPS on where "the room" is.

And, not that I particularly care about the Blue Jackets, but that team's not entirely the coach's fault. There is a point at which players need to play and simply turning on the coaching carousel isn't always the best move. Arniel didn't give up multiple odd-man rushes. He hasn't give up goals in the first four shots of EVERY game this season (a stat which astonishes me...).

Plus, with RJ and Crater on board, would Hitchcock have been the best choice, anyway?

I wouldn't trade schenn for Sbisa. But I would be fine seeing him traded for defensive help. Let's face it, this defense isn't very good without Pronger. Carle makes so many ******* mistakes. Honestly so does Coburn and Mezsaros. I really don't understand when people call them one of the best bluelines in the league. They really aren't at all. Hopefully when Timonen comes off the books they use his cap space for a good D-man.

Hey there FG - good to see you on board here!

Timmo's off after next season so that space will open up. I don't think he was on the "downside of his career" when they signed him - but that was four whole seasons ago.

I think you need to compare this D to other teams. I don't think they're hands down "the best" but they do have a solid Top 5 - even with the mistakes you mention. And there are mistakes. But, honestly, everybody makes them.

Coburn and Carle frustrate me. Meszaros less. Pronger/Timonen I'm good with. Walker/Lilja make a not bad 6/7 pair.

The problem is that the D is too expensive - which is what most "writers" are looking at in terms of "quality".

Rad - that couch you're coaching from...it's in a bar, right?

We have some Really Cool bars in Philly :-)

I don't know many people that were happy to give up Sbisa. Did the Flyers get a good return for him? Yes. Did people want to see Sbisa go? No. i think the lack of a real 5/6 d-man is going to get Schenn sent away. Do I think that is a good thing? Not really, but he is one of the stronger bargaining chips the Flyers have got. Bottom line is you have to give to get and the Flyers have too many choices at center for that to be the issue.....

Lilja and Walker seem to me to be the definition of "real 5/6" guys. Especially once Pronger's back:

Pronger, Timonen, Meszaros, Coburn, Carle, Walker/Lilja

Seems to fit perfectly. The real problems comes in paying your "5" (Carle or Coburn) $3.4M or $3.8M.

If you're looking to trade for a "real 5/6" then I think saving some salary on either Carle or Coburn would be the way to go before Schenn.

That said, I don't think we need to "fix" the D and I don't expect any game-changing deals until next Spring.

I'm all in for the Pietrangelo trade. Sbisa, not so much.

Schenn would likely be on this roster if not for the salary cap problems. His cap hit as I understand it is less than it would have been had he made the opening day roster. He went down and put up immediate numbers in the AHL. He was brought up, playing 3/4 line time as I recall, and didn't set the world on fire, but hardly looked out of place.

LA didn't "give up" on Schenn by trading him, they acquired Mike Richards. You can't get a good player for spare parts (usually...*) and certainly not a captain with a 12 year contract. The Flyers wouldn't "give up" on Schenn to trade him for a solid player that fills a need.

St. Louis isn't dealing Pietrangelo for Schenn. And no one is trading anything for Schenn for at least the next month, if not early next year. Nobody trades for a player with a broken foot.*

* Mike Millbury is no longer employed as a GM in the National Hockey League.

I love this thread. Thanks for bringing it back.

Good to be here and to see friends old and new!

Definite kudos to Shanahan for showing the reasons and the history.

I don't recall anything like this before? Is it new to the NHL or are other leagues doing it?

Great fan interaction for the NHL.