King Knut

He's been on the PP since he entered the league, regardless of the team. He has 88 Career PP points, which clearly isn't amazing, but it definitely makes him a PP guy.

Well like I said, part of that is because he literally was out there less of the game than other guys, but (and please know I'm not trying to be snarky when I say this) if you didn't notice the guy taking the 2nd most shots, driving play as much as he did and keeping the puck out of his own zone as much as he did, maybe at least some small part of that is on you and what you're watching for, not JVR. He's played on every line this year as just about everyone has. Strange part is that he's started producing from almost the moment he had his minutes cut. This is simply not true. If you look at the kinds of things coaches are looking for, he's playing every night because he's doing those things well. If Fletcher decides to trade him or something to recoup some cap space, THAT'll be because he makes $7million. Do you really think any coach in his right mind would put a guy who is a "lazy stiff" on the 4th line? He benched Ghost for Hagg! Do you think AV cares about a guy's salary? If he thought it would get JVR going, I'm sure he'd bench him any night he wanted. The fact of the matter is, the Flyers are better with JVR out there (somewhere) than they are with their current alternatives. He goes in fits and starts, so let's see how this current start pans out and if he gets any more consistent after it. When the PP gets up to 23% or so, then we'll see how we feel about JVR's production. In the meantime, it's just a little silly to pretend that he's a lazy stiff and he's playing poorly just because he's doing the 90% of the game the coaches harp on all the time better than the 10% we'd like to see. I guarantee you, when it comes to winning games, you'd much rather him be good at the stuff he's doing well right now than the 10% he's not.

No, but you can stink up a chestnut with poop. He's playing very well. As was Hayes and as was Jake before they started scoring recently. His play isn't lacking. His shots are lacking. He's got 3 points in 4 games despite the reduced play time. He's a career -40 player who is currently +4 (6th on the team) Typically about 1/4 of his points come off the PP. Right now 1/12 of his points are coming on the PP. His shooting % is also about half what it normally is. This to me suggests that he's just not getting the shots from the places and situations that he's used to. Which says to me that he's adjusting his game to AV's system. This isn't what you pay a guy $7million for, but I am kinda inclined to think he's going to start scoring more regularly again. At the end of the day, what I'm certain of is that right now, the PP's lack of scoring is what's keeping this team from seeming really scary and I can't honestly pin that on JVR. The whole play of both units isn't really looking good yet.

I mean he's only playing 12 mins a night so, that helps with the invisibility thing, but just to play Devil's advocate here: JVR finished with a 68.2cf%, a +2, 4 shots (wnd to G's 5 shots) and a breakaway goal in only 18 Shifts, splitting time against the top Leafs lines. Yes, the goal was in garbage time. That's fair... but if the rest of the above is invisible, I think some of us need to be looking a little harder.

Oh yeah totally. I didn't mean for that to sound like I disagreed. I just felt bad I missed a chance to point out what a P.O.S. Chelios is.

Not for nuthin, but as far as I'm concerned, HoF or not, I still think Chelios is a P.O.S. for what he did to prop back in '89.

I'm telling you, the scoring is down and the hitting is down for the same reason. The systems are just plain better. The fact is, players are faster, more skilled and have ridiculous magic sticks that Gretzky would have scored 9 goals a night with if he could have used one. Also, as you point out... they're getting hit a lot less and no one's trying to decapitate them every night. Goals are down because players are sticking to their coach's system. They're not committing to the cherry picking or the offense. They're committing to shutting down the opposition and trying to take advantage when they can. Same is true of hitting. It's not happening but more because the coaches would much rather see a player shutting down a passing lane and being in position for a smooth transition.

I think we all are, but that's not going to prevent me from enjoying them playing well now. I'm not going to ignore good hockey and what appears to be a 6 year plan finally coming to fruition out of spite of the fact that it actually took 6 years. I'm going with a, "Hooray! But don't get comfortable punks. Keep working."

Well the Stevens hit was three different kinds of illegal back then too, they just chose not to call it for (insert inexplicable reasons here). Hits like the Kasparitus one were thought of as clean (even though it was a clear case of head hunting) even though he took more than the required number of strides for charging and lead with his shoulder directly into Lindros' face. He was laughing and congratulated by his team mates afterwards while Lindros was still unable to get off his knees minutes later. That should give us all a pretty good indication of how the league viewed Lindros. From the moment he joined the league It was sort of a challenge to see if you could get hurt him. The league didn't discourage it and I'm sure tons of coaches and GMs around the league encouraged it and the fans in other towns friggin loved it. I'm sorry, but I absolutely do not pine for those days. It's one thing for someone like Randy Jones or Brandon Manning to take out a Bergeron or a McDavid or even the concussion Patrick got as a rookie (which is borderline as far as I'm concerned) but targeting guys just because they're good? That's a bit of bull that I have no time for and I hope it's gone... though Patrick sure did take a lot of abuse his first two years. IMHO, the Legion of Doom and Forseberg are more or less what led us to the place we are now. They were too big and too fast and too skilled and the only way teams could compete at all was to either grab on and interfere with them or utterly brutalize them in any way they could. The Clutch and grab of the mid-90's on was a direct result of Lindros entering the league IMHO. And part of the problem there as far as I'm concerned was two fold: A) The Flyers eschewed the traditional role of protecting him. They let him fight his own fights. Supposed old time hockey. Brilliant idea for a guy you literally just invested a new building in. B) The league (for whatever reason) did not see fit to penalize what was done to Lindros and the Flyers in general. Part of it is that Gretzky or Lemieux would have been mroe cagey and avoided hits whereas Lindros could give a crap if you hit him because normal hits didn't affect or hurt him. The result however was that defenders started doing things to Lindros that they would have been suspended for doing to Lemieux or Gretzky, but were almost encouraged to do to Lindros. There were a lot of flaws.

You're joking, but it's a good point about big players. Often time they look like they're not working hard, but they're actually moving quickly. I don't necessarily mean JVR as no one would accuse him of being a speedster... but over the course of the Flyers history, plenty of "ugly skating" bigger men have been pretty good at getting around despite the eye test suggesting they look slow. Inertia is a thing.

I think your point is good, but I'd come at it from a different angle. If you're a coach or a GM or an owner and you've invested 7 million bucks in a guy... do you want that guy earning it on an operating table and in PT and rehab? Still, I think it has way more to do with position based coaching systems and it being way more important to get your butt where it belongs to shut down a passing lane, than it is to deliver a bruising hit.

I don't think that will be true of hockey. It doesn't seem to be true in international and olympic play and the Flyers got clocked by the open ice in Switzterland. The pitch is obviously much larger than the ice surface, but there are literally twice as many players taking up space in soccer. The larger difference to me though is the speed of hockey and the speed of the puck. Even when a skater is resting, he's still moving.

I think this is a good example of what I want to see more of from this team, but it's not a "shoot the puck" thing for me. Myers knows TK has speed and he takes full advantage, giving him a perfect saucer hail mary. TK has G on a 2-1 with Reilly back, but he doesn't shoot the puck because he's hungry or he wants to make the goalie work for it, he sees that the trailing D-man has gotten his butt back into the play despite TK's speed and he anticipates that by the time a pass (if he can get it through Reilly) gets to Giroux, the trailer may have closed that gap and will be able to stifle or at least hinder G's shot. That passing lane is now essentially shut down by two D-men. What TK also sees is that Reilly doesn't quite see this yet and is only just starting to figure it out. TK commits to the shot just as Reilly realizes he doesn't need to shut down the passing lane and commits to wrapping up TK. It's too late though, the shot's already off and in the net. It's awareness, analysis and seeing a split second of indecision on Reilly's part and taking advantage. And it's fantastic hockey sense and brilliant to watch in slow motion.

Yeah, I don't think the lack of hitting you're talking about has anything to do with the league legislating anything. I think that particular brand of hitting disappearing is by and large a coaching decision. It's not illegal. Players don't get penalized for THAT kind of hitting. It still happens occasionally and everyone's shocked because they haven't seen it as much, but it doesn't typically get penalized (thinking of the hit that concussed Patrick as a rookie for instance). The difference is that coaches seem to be preferring that players make a play and get back into position to shut down a lane rather than get themselves embroiled in a physical quagmire. As far as the defencemen being spread apart, it's not legislated by the league to allow forwards a clean breakaway or because they're not allowed to hit, it's also a positioning thing. Maybe you're seeing more breakaways as a leafs watcher, but I'm not personally seeing so many, and it's mostly due to positioning. The assessment that it's becoming more like soccer isn't inappropriate as far as I see it. A lot of what makes a player valuable in this league right now isn't actually making the big play, it's the stuff he's doing away from the puck that makes it so the other team can't make a big play. I enjoy watching that. I enjoy seeing an offense actually able to try to make a play and struggling to figure out how using skill and finesse. I find that much more satisfying than watching an offense utterly physically unable to make a play because they've got defenders hanging on them like wet monkeys. It's a taste thing I guess. I'd love to see the large ice surface open things up more. I'm sad to admit that I sometimes enjoy watching overtimes because they're so wide open, but that tells me the thing I actually enjoy is the open ice and more room for creativity. I don't mind if the games don't get more physical until the playoffs myself. I just hope that means the refs can still identify the actual penalties (i.e. the ridiculous play Malkin made on Couturier two years ago that pretty much ended the series but resulted in no call). I also still see plenty of hitting and I don't see guys as being "soft". Guys always whined and complained (I feel like I typically see less of that now actually). I just think the hits are not as big and don't take as much time because both players want to stay on the ice and get themselves back into the play because they know their system is falling apart without them. I fully understand that's me though.

well I've been a proponent of the European Ice size for a while now. The loss of seating revenue was I'm told the major issue. I still think it's the way to go. I'm not sure why you're not seeing the kind of finesse. I guess defensemen are better skaters now and coaching tactics make it harder to exploit, but I feel like I see finesse galore and I also see players scoring from angles and with precision that the 80's guys who scored 80 goals could only dream of. The goalies are making tougher saves because of their lighter equipment and some coaching advances and the defenses are harder to get around, but players have sticks that can let them do what would previously have been impossible. I think coaches and their systems are just way smarter and elaborate now and they have better game footage and can watch it more easily in order to scout your butt inside and out. It's hard to fool teams night in and night out. Even mediocre and bad teams are coached well enough to be onto you if you're a talented player. I think Olympic sized Ice is the only thing likely to change the way the game is now. But I don't have any issue with the lack of physicality. You can still hit guys if you know how. Just not if you're Radko Gudas and you're wearing orange and black.

I'm not a young fan by any means and I so whole heartedly have exactly the opposite point of view on actually watching and enjoying games.

I think you're thinking of '99. Beezer was long gone by '01. If I'm remembering correctly, the series you're thinking of featured Snider going absolutely off his rocker in front of the cameras after the loss. he was livid at the way the series was handled. Bench clearing brawls in the 80's are one thing, but I'm surprised to hear anyone say they miss those late 90's early '00's series with the leafs. They were ugly as hell, unfun to watch, extraordinarily frustrating and they injured half the team, usually leading directly to losing the series or being horrible impaired for the next one. For instance, I'm pretty sure the Flyers might have been able to beat the Lightning in '04 if they hadn't had such a physically brutal series against the leafs going into the ECF's. I think similarly of the '97 playoff series against the Rangers. An utterly brutal and ugly series that ultimately sincerely damaged the Flyers chances going forward. It would be one thing if it was just old time Flyers hockey, but because of "the trap" (insert sarcastic air quotes) the games weren't just brutal, they were uglier than sin and ridiculously unenjoyable to watch.

Very good test. Keefe is the guy I wanted to coach the Flyers. I'm not disappointed with AV as a choice and haven't been since they hired him. It's the safest option and I can't disagree with it thus far. Keefe was the kind of guy they should have gotten instead of Hakstol... but he wasn't quite in the radar 6 years ago.

In previous years, the Flyers were a bubble team that was hanging on for dear life in most games... AND that couldn't score and were losing the goal differential. There's more to this than theMost of these new fangled advanced analytics are just a way of quantifying the "eye test" and right now both of those are saying this Flyers team is much better than any of the previous 6 seasons. Probably 9 if I'm being generous. Yes, they are a bubble team right now, but -they've played very well or beaten the teams ahead of them -they are tied or better than two of the team "ahead of them" -both of the above have a worse differential than the Flyers -last year the difference between 3rd in the division and not in the playoffs was 9 wins. If they were having trouble scoring and losing games, I'd be more more concerned. If they were having trouble scoring and not dominating the majority of games, I'd be more concerned. If they were having trouble scoring and didn't have a bevy of scoring threats under-achieving and thus had no hope of getting better in that department, I'd be concerned. If they were having trouble scoring and were still relying on Neuvirth, Manning and MacDonald to stop goals, I'd be concerned. If Hakstol's ridiculous system and his reliance on Lehtera & Weise were still at play, I'd be more concerned. as it is i'm feeling okay.

Your last statement certainly seems extreme to me. I absolutely HATED the game of hockey 10 years ago. The things teams like the Penguins and the Blackhawks would get away with to win those cups was disgusting to me and I absolutely hated it. The idea of "hey, we're getting out played and we're down by a goal... let's hold their sticks or pretend to get hit in the face and get a double minor so we can get back in this thing!" is just fine as a tactic if you want to be an A-hole, but for the life of me, I can't figure out how the refs were falling for it. My only guess is that the league had them so cued in to "interference" that they were predisposed to see a guy being unable to play the puck because his stick was being held as a "hook" in the other direction. I miss the "give a crap" "find that extra gear" quality that Richards and Briere had going for them. I don't miss throwing a bunch of money at Marty Biron or Jeff Hackett and thinking "What could go wrong?!" But hey... Richards and Carter got laid a lot, so that had to end. Or something like that. Honestly I forget. Ultimately, out of those deals we will have gotten Coots, Frost, Farabee, Pitlick and 8 years of crap hockey 3/5 of which is a pretty good return. The scoring went down in the early 90's essentially when the Devils won the cup with "The Trap" which was a load of horse crap because they essentially just got away with all kinds of interference, hooking and clutching and grabbing. So then everyone tried to do it. Hockey decided to suck as a result. Around the same time, the league okay's enormous light weight goalie equipment. Light weight I'm okay with and allowing the goalies to be more athletic is great. But the size of the chest protector essentially taken away portions of the net. They counterbalanced this is the carbon fiber sticks which allow for insanely hard and accurate shots, so for my money, it's a wash. The clutch and grab (ahem) I mean "Trap" defenses have given way as well... however, what remains is what those teams like the redwings and devils purported to be doing back then and essentially playing positionally savvy defense that limits the magnificence of your star players to rise above the fray. But as far as my middle aged eyes can see it now, the game seems to be on track from my POV. The game is cleaner, more honest than it was then. We may see more of what you miss if the Flyers make it out of the first round ever again. I think the playoffs are still that place where greatness can arise. I

Jake says he needed to get his "swagger" back and playing with Coots, he did (thinly veiled critique of Hayes?). Similarly Ghost says he is having confidence issues (ater all that time with Hakstol cutting your minutes and benching you, I can't imagine how). Is sticking Ghost back out there with Braun (or Hagg for that matter), really the thing to do to get his confidence going again?

He had a goal against the flames too. 3 points in 3 games since joining the Coots line. We've seen with Jake & JVR that they need a strong play making centerman to score. I think we've seen clearly that despite the $7million price tag, Hayes isn't that guy. He does a lot of things extremely well and is an asset to this team, but he's not going to make plays to get JVR or Jake going. Frost likely isn't experienced enough to play that role without a Giroux by his side. Patrick is still out. If either one of those two factors changes, then I think you could see lines shifting again before the end of the season in a way that gets multiple lines going at once. It would be nice right now if the Frosty Gineckneys and the Oskar VoraCootses (Jake CouturaBloms?) could both put it in the net the same night, but they were both buzzing pretty good last night. They were both crushing the possession and play driving. Actually all 4 lines did pretty damn well with that last night. The 4th gave up the goal on a turnover and Hagg got a little dominated, but other than that, they played a strong game. It would just be nice in any and all of these games if there was just one more goal coming from all this dominance. It would mean several more points and position places.

So strange that this team seems to decide to take turns scoring and going ice cold. I'm not certain I agree with his demotion to the 4th line in favor of Laughton playing 4C. It didn't work out last night. Maybe they wanted to get Laughton some easier or more minutes in his return, but I genuinely feel like Laughton needs to be the 4C... regardless of what you do with JVR. The thing about JVR, Jake and Hayes is that none of them had been playing poorly. They just weren't scoring. Hayes and Jake got it going, now JVR's the odd man out, but playing him less than 10:00 with Raffl and Pitlick isn't going to do him any favors. With Laughton at 4C, Raffl and 4LW, they're basically in what I see as their ideal lineup that doesn't include Patrick. I'm not 100% sure what to do if Patrick comes back, but I'm not going to worry about that.

Jake really is playing like a guy who already knows this is going down. Those penalties to start the game were... odd.

Yeah... I’m with you. I think it only helps indirectly in that it gives Frost and Farabee the best options and maybe (hopefully) takes some abuse and harder minutes from them.