J0e Th0rnton

Admittedly, the Sharks seem to find diamonds later in the drafts(Pavelski), , or they take guys like Couture 9th who were not expected to go before 20th and it pans out. Hertl was not very highly regarded either and analysts were surprised we went for him so early(Thank you Euro Scouting) and was well ahead of Mackinnon for the calder this season before his injury(Brown will pay!!!!!).

Anyways, I figured this would be a nice way to get to know some prospects from other teams. I kinda track prospect development and watch videos. I knew Pavelski was going to be a great player and I knew Couture was going to be a great player. Couture's below average skating terrified me at first, but then I realized he is soooo good at positioning and reading the play and thinks defensive minded.

In any case, Mirco Mueller, who was just drafted, looks great. Needs to put on around 20 pounds of muscle to fill his frame, but he is young lol. The kid reminds me of a young Vlasic with better skating. His positioning, poise and mobility make me hope he works himself into around a #3 defenseman in the NHL, Maybe #2 if he can improve offensively.

Likely will not see him called up to NHL level for 2-3 years while he develops(And eats about a hundred steaks and protean shakes), unless there is an emergency.

I just realized I am not going to see a Sharks vs Wings series ever again unless it is in the finals. Well, we are up on the lifetime series 3 to 2

  My All overrated team, as we wind the season down.

 

 Wing: Alex Ovechkin. Enough said.

 

 Wing: Rick Nash. Just a shadow of his old self. Can still score but not much else.

 

 Center: Henrik Sedin.

 

 Defense: Dion Phaneuf

 

 Defense: Mike Green.

 

 Goalie:  Mike Smith

 

 Coach:  Torts

 

  Anyone else?

How are they overrated? I am pretty sure I was seeing them as Has beens . Ovechkin's awful +/- is popping out

When i think overated, I think of guys who seem to be playing Ok or have good numbers, but people blow them up to be better than they are.

Malkin this season for one.

The image is from http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2014/04/02/heres-a-bunch-of-other-minus-players/related/

 

 

Edler, Yandle and Spezza are surprising to me to be on the list.  

Yandle surprises me as I always liked his defensive play. But keep in mind nobody on that team can score and +/- depends a lot on your team scoring when you are on the ice and playing defense. Yandle is leading the team in scoring because he is being forced to take chances when they are down a goal(Which is most of the time)

Edler does not surprise me at all, and Spezza is expected in my eyes. Ovechkin is godawful this year

I would love to get Stastny on the Devils to take some of the pressure off Zajac, and improve our depth up the middle, which is sorely lacking. Moulson would also be a great fit. Unfortunately I think they'll get better offers from teams closer to contending.

They definitely need something. Why not Stastny. Who knows. A lot of the better clubs might not be able to afford them

This guy thinks Ryan Miller is the all time best goalie, that Jerry Korab is the best d-man and that Don Luce should have been elected mayor of Buffalo. Nice guy but about as unbiased as Rush Limbaugh.

Rofl. I suppose he has a grudge against Hasek?

I will weigh in and put Gilbert Perrault at number one.  His ability to skate like the wind, stick handle as good as any player I have ever seen, like Orr did also, and he was like the Ty Cobb of hockey.  Gretzky grew up going  to the arena to watch him.  He would rather set up Rick Martin or Rene Robert than score himself.  He was more than unselfish.  I had always wished he had shot more often.  But he was the type that looked to make the pretty, dazzling play.  I say nobody was better at setting up a scorer.  He was the most fun to watch player I have ever seen

Number 1 over even Gretzky? That's ridiculous

The thing is play-maker it comes sometimes comes down to flash (imo). Thornton makes it look so easy and effortless (almost lazy to the eye at times). Where as a guy like forsberg could work inside a phone both to work his magic and just mesmerize the crowd and opposition-  he made it look like work (which it equally was / is for both players). The other part is are we talking playmaker or greatest set-up guy? I see on this thread where folks are quoting assists stats. The greatest playmaker will also have scored a ton of goals.  We also have to think about era. I would probably split the eras between pre-90's / post-90's for this dialogue. 

Traditionally, the NHL labels playmakers specifically as set up guys. 

@J0e Th0rnton

 

Gotta completely disagree with you one hundred percent on Crosby. The man is an assist machine and is duking it out (with Thornton) attempting to lead the league this year. I understand what you are saying about the injuries but I still feel he is an amazing playmaker who deserves the ranking.

 

  I was never a big Adam Oates fan. I could have kicked the Wings for dealing him for the ghost of Federko (another great assist man) but what you said about Hull not getting the stats if it weren't for Oates, I feel the opposite. Look at Oates after he left St. Louis, 2 damn good years with Boston and then still solid but IMHO like you said about Francis I feel Oates was a compiler from then on.

 

  Jagr i screwed up and listed Bossy 13th when i meant Jagr. I can see your point for ranking him higher however. @jammer2 noticed i had bossy there, i meant Jagr, that was my bad.

 

  I cannot for the life of me see how you could rank Thornton ahead of Dionne or Forsberg at this point. Peter Stastny IMHO is the most underrated passer in the history of the game.

 I see Thornton as a HOFer if he retires right now and could finish as an all time great, but he needs a couple of more years. There certainly is nothing wrong with that.

Crosby is still young and in his prime. Thornton is 34 going on 35 and is neck and Neck with the prodigy. That tells me he is a better playmaker.

Oates Left StLouis, where people felt he was being boosted by Hull. Hull had a dramatic goal dropoff with Craig Janney, while oates went on to hit his best season ever at age 30 with 45 goals and 142 points. The next season, Cam Neely came back and was able to play half the season and hit 50 goals in 44 games. Neely's previous high in a full season was 55 goals. Boston pretty much went down the crapper the following seasons aside from oates and Bourque, nobody on the team even hitting 30 goals in a high scoring era, and still Oates was able to finish top 10 in scoring and 4th in assists. Scoring dropped off pretty globally after 96, and Oates was still able to finish 1st in assists twice and 2nd once in his late 30's. Bondra ended up winning the rocket Richard again in his first full season with Oates.

You have to keep in mind Oates was not drafted and only had 1st line opportunities in StLouis at Age 27 and at age 32 is when you see stars start to drop off drastically in some cases.

I fully agree that Babcock deserves strong consideration for the Adams. However, right now--and you KNOW it somewhat pains me to say this--I still have to give the nod to Patrick Roy. What he has done with the Avs is remarkable, and in his first year of coaching at this level, no less.

But I AM torn on that, because I also believe Babcock--who has never won the award--IS one of, if not THE, best coaches in the league, and this year showcases why. He has already demonstrated that he knows how to win with a higher level of talent. He's done it with the Wings, and he's done it with Canada at the Olympics. But this year, he's willing the RWs to win when others look and say we have no business winning. His ability and WILL to focus is unreal. How many times was he asked about who wasn't playing this season? You KNOW the man HAD to be frustrated with all of the injuries...on the inside...but he NOT ONCE let that frustration take his focus off of driving who he HAD skating, whether in their 1st NHL game or their 400th, to do what was necessary to win games or at least get points.

And he's had to adapt his strategy to the different skill set of the newer players. How much different is your strategy when you have all of this speed in the lineup vs. at the start of the season? It's very easy and LAZY to try to stay with what you have been successful doing for a long time, but it doesn't necessarily lead to success when the skill set changes.

And this driving discipline, I think, has had a good bit to do with the development this year of Brendan Smith. Let's face it, he sucked defensively at the start of this season. And even though he sat him for a game or two, Babs still believed in this kid, but had to get his attention to discipline himself. And he FINALLY used the press box to do that, and Smith has responded. I agree that he is a far better player now then at the start of the season. I think Babcock has had a lot to do with that.

I am therefore torn. Looking ONLY at this season, and the resources each coach has had and what they have done with them, I give the nod to Roy right now. But. If I look beyond this season at all, Babs is beyond due for the recognition. Tough call, especially because I LIKE Babs, and I really don't like Roy for obvious reasons, but he IS a winner, and even though I don't like him because we were rivals for all those years, I respect the heck out of him. He is displaying that he too knows how to lead a team to believe in themselves and win.

I think it might be time to start a thread outside of the RW forum on Adams candidates. It would be interesting to see what those who don't wear Wing-stained glasses think.

Agreed. Babcock should at least be a finalist. John Cooper should get a look as well, as Boudreau. Quennville deserves a look every year these days but he has a lot to work with.

@yave1964    Oh, my bad, you had Francis, missed him on the list. I'm right there with you Yave...Joe is elite, but can't crack my top ten. He's just not as dynamic or electric as Forsberg, Sakic, Stevie Y etc, etc.

That's the thing. Yes they were fleet of foot and electric players, but in terms of pure playmaking, Joe just beats them. He might not look as flashy, or dangle like Yzerman and Forsberg, but he finds those holes and exploits them. Sakic himself did not look like an electric player compared to Forsberg or Yzerman, but I think he was better than either of them.

 

Thornton at 34 is 25th all time in assists, just four behind Bobby Clarke. He has led the league 3 times in assists, came in 2nd twice and 3rd once, he is second this year.

  Assists per game for his career he is 23rd, playing most of his career in a dead puck era. Active players ahead of him are Sid Crosby, Malkin and Nick Backstrom. Most others ahead of him played in the high scoring 80's.

That is a big deal to me. A lot of the guys on this list have not lead the NHL in assists or near the top near as much as Thornton.

Leading the NHL in assists 3 times in a row is not exactly common unless your name is Gretzky. Neither are 90 assist seasons. He won those 90 assist seasons by a pretty big margin too.

 

There are some, many even who consider Thornton a prima Donna after the Bruins dealt him to the Sharks for Marco Strum, Wayne Primeau and Brad Stuart. After dealing Thornton, the Bruins started a whisper campaign in the East coast media they painted him as a brittle me first player, a modern Lindros if you will. Perception and reality are not the same as he has not missed ten games in his Sharks career, but playing out west this gets missed.

I had been a huge Boston fan during that whole ordeal, and I can tell you that bruin fans were LIVID that ownership was trying to paint him as the bad guy. For 2 reasons. One being he was playing that last playoff with severely torn Rib Cartilage and it is almost impossible to play. Most guys in any era would have sat out with such an injury because it makes you virtually useless. Even wearing a suit of armor, it is incredibly hard to use your arms properly or have any twisting motions to your torso(Winding up for a shot or pass) or make any sort of cutting motions on your skates. In short, it turns you into a pylon.

Joe annoyed Jeremy Jacobs by refusing to sign a contract during the lockout until he saw that the bruins were going finally put forth the money to win and sign players. (Boston was the place that let go of superstars if they wanted money and while having the 5th lowest payroll in the NHL, they were 2nd in profits every year). It was a bad time.

Granted, they did go sign players(Considering they only had 3 players on contract, they were in a position to rebuild any way they wanted), but they were very stupid and signed a bunch of big slow guys, not realizing the new NHL was going to be more finesse friendly. They let go of Nylander, Rolston and Knuble(Who all went on to have career years on new teams) while signing guys like Scatchard, Mceachern, resign Travis Green, Tom Fitgerald and the big one, Alexei Zhamnov(Who was injury prone and the only guy left). I suppose signing Leetch was a big move, but he was horrible defensively and on his last legs.

The team sucked. The ONLY player doing anything to win was Thornton. He had 33 points in 23 games and nobody else on the team had more than 20. I still remember the game vs NJD he had a goal, 3 assists and was +3.....and they lost. It was insane. The team on the ice with him was beyond bad. When they traded Joe to the Sharks, the team was in 10th in the east and had just received 3 quality players(No superstars, but great players). By the end of the season they had dropped to 5th worst in the LEAGUE. They looked like the oilers do today. The Sharks on the other hand had been the 2nd worst team in the league and were on a 10 game losing streak, with a record of 8 wins/12 losses/4 OT/SO losses. With Joe, even though they lost 3 quality players, they went 36 wins/15 losses/7 OT/SO losses. The bruins had 2 years of abject mediocrity and went to sign some big free agents, cut the dead wood and FINALLY let Tim Thomas play(He played 4 games in 03 and Bruins fans were dying to know why the Bruins decided to keep crappy goalies instead)

 

The Sharks have never won a cup, in spite of enormous talent and some great regular seasons the Thornton/Marleau era has never even gotten them to the finals. Roenick has publicly blasted the Sharks, (especially Marleau) for the lack of intensity. When a team underperforms the stars are the ones who publicly get the blame.

  He is enormous, 6 feet 2 over two hundred pounds and is a pass first shoot as the last option player and has a reputation for playing softer than his size. This is a common complaint of fans and he seems to be called out for it every year. Some validity may actually apply.

Roenick (Who had been their teammate the previous year)actually praised Thornton while calling Marleau "Gutless" in the media blasting I remember well.

Thornton is 6'4 actually, and does hit a hell of a lot. The problem is, he tends to get penalties and suspended when he does. He can be a nasty SOB.

 

In essense the case against Thornton as a great player is a combination of perception and playing on the West coast where East coast fans do not get to see him every night. As a Wings fan, let me tell you I hate Pavelski the most of any shark but Thornton has thrust a dagger in more than once.

Its funny, because Most wings fans, LA fans, Blues fans, Ducks fans and Canucks fans say the same thing. They just do not see where he gets his choker label because he tends to play very well and tilts the ice into the opposing zone while many of his teammates find a way to lose the game.

 

This is running a bit long, the gist was supposed to be, is Thornton an all time great playmaker? I rank the greatest playmakers of all time:

1. Gretzky

2. Lemieux

3. Orr

4. Crosby

5. Forsberg

6. Dionne

7. Peter Stastny

8. Clarke

9. Sakic

10. Yzerman

11. Coffey

12. Trottier

13. Bossy

14. Perreault

15. Francis

16. Oates

17. Messier

18. H. Sedin

19. Beliveau

20. d. Savard

Strictly playmaking. Gretz and Lemieux are obvious. As is Orr. Crosby over Thornton? Not a chance. Never lead the league in assists, although being runner up 3 times, and his next highest finishes are 7th and 8th. A per game metric is useless here. If you are not on the ice, you are not helping your team win and are not the best playmaker if you miss half the season or more 3-4 times. A full or nearly full season holds more weight. In playmaking finishes, Thornton effectively blows him away. The same can be said about a lot of people on this list other than Oates.

How does Jagr NOT make this list? He lead the NHL in assists 3 times and was top 10 in assists 10 times. Yzerman, in playmaking, was 3rd, 3rd, 7th, 7th and 10th in assists. Jagr figuratively and literally blows him out of the water even if you take Gretzky and Lemieux out of the picture(Which some do because they were stupid good), but if you take them out for Yzerman, take them out for Oates and look where he ends up. Bossy on this list of playmakers REALLY perplexes me. He finished 4th, 6th and 9th in assists and never broke the top 10 aside from those. Francis was more of a compiler who was rarely outstanding when not being carried by Jagr or Lemieux.

Outside of those Monstrous 3(Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr), Oates, Jagr and Thornton pretty much are the toast of this list for playmaking. Especially Oates.

Also look at the guys they made better. Cheechoo does not come near a Rocket Richard Trophy without Joe Thornton, and to be honest, Brett Hull does not have those stupid good goal scoring seasons without Oates.

  Poster @joethornton mentioned in another thread that Joe Thornton is solidifying his case as one of the greatest playmakers of all time. This has been rustling around in my mind since then, and I decided to take a look for myself and see what I thought.

 

  First, Thornton is one hell of a player. His statistics:

 

Games  Goals Assists  Points +/-

 

1202      342    850        1192    +177

 

He is 34 and still going strong. This season he has quietly put up 74 points in 77 games, still performing at a point a game ratio.

 

  First lets look at the retired players whose similarity scores are considered the best comps to Thornton.

1.Brett Hull

2. Bryan Trottier

3. Steve Yzerman

4. Marcel Dionne

5. Bobby Hull

 

  All hall of famers, all considered to be among the greatest in the game.

 

Thornton at 34 is 25th all time in assists, just four behind Bobby Clarke. He has led the league 3 times in assists, came in 2nd twice and 3rd once, he is second this year.

  Assists per game for his career he is 23rd, playing most of his career in a dead puck era. Active players ahead of him are Sid Crosby, Malkin and Nick Backstrom. Most others ahead of him played in the high scoring 80's.

 

  He is now in the top 50 in all time scoring, his 1192 points rank him 46th. He has played in six all star games, been a second team all star twice and a first team all star once.

  Again, just one hell of a player.

  NOW THE CASE AGAINST

  There are some, many even who consider Thornton a prima Donna after the Bruins dealt him to the Sharks for Marco Strum, Wayne Primeau and Brad Stuart. After dealing Thornton, the Bruins started a whisper campaign in the East coast media they painted him as a brittle me first player, a modern Lindros if you will. Perception and reality are not the same as he has not missed ten games in his Sharks career, but playing out west this gets missed.

 The Sharks have never won a cup, in spite of enormous talent and some great regular seasons the Thornton/Marleau era has never even gotten them to the finals. Roenick has publicly blasted the Sharks, (especially Marleau) for the lack of intensity. When a team underperforms the stars are the ones who publicly get the blame.

  He is enormous, 6 feet 2 over two hundred pounds and is a pass first shoot as the last option player and has a reputation for playing softer than his size. This is a common complaint of fans and he seems to be called out for it every year. Some validity may actually apply.

  In essense the case against Thornton as a great player is a combination of perception and playing on the West coast where East coast fans do not get to see him every night. As a Wings fan, let me tell you I hate Pavelski the most of any shark but Thornton has thrust a dagger in more than once.

  This is running a bit long, the gist was supposed to be, is Thornton an all time great playmaker? I rank the greatest playmakers of all time:

1. Gretzky

2. Lemieux

3. Orr

4. Crosby

5. Forsberg

6. Dionne

7. Peter Stastny

8. Clarke

9. Sakic

10. Yzerman

11. Coffey

12. Trottier

13. Bossy

14. Perreault

15. Francis

16. Oates

17. Messier

18. H. Sedin

19. Beliveau

20. d. Savard

 

 Also worthy: Malkin, Bourque, Lafluer, Mikita, Jagr and Gilmour.

  Where in this bunch of elite players do you rank Thornton? IMHO the top six are pretty well fixed. Forsberg gets a bad rap because of being brittle but he was an all time great playmaker. Peter Stastny came over late in his career after defecting, he was 24 before his first NHL game and is 33rd all time in assists.

  To me, Thornton at his age ranks ahead of Gil Perreault, a great playmaker and slightly behind Sakic and Yzerman. If he keeps it up for another 3 or 4 years at or close to his current pace he will be top ten.

  You do not have to win a cup to be an all time great, Dionne and Stastny for instance never did but it does get you bonus points. If he wins a cup he automatically bumps up a spot or two in my opinion. The fact that the Sharks have not won a cup does count against him, even more than Dionne who other than a few years played on bad or mediocre teams who were not expected to win anyway. It is why many consider Montana greater than Marino in spite of strong statistical evidence to the contrary.  

  So my opinion not quite top ten but a first ballot HOFer if he retires today. With a few more solid years he could be top five but he is not quite there yet.

I'll comment more when I get off work, but I find a bit of flaw with your list. Most of those players are definitely better than joe overall, but as a playmaker? How is Oates so low? In pure passing and playmaking, he blows sakic and yzerman out of the water.

@J0e Th0rnton

 

Havlat? I thought he retired after being Kronwalled in the playoffs a few years ago......

 

  I watch a lot of Montreal games, and Markov for the past two seasons has been healthy and back to his usual laser like passing ways. Holes on defense? sure. But the sucker can run the point as well as any free agent out there.

  BTW I have been saying for a year that the Wings need to sign Boyle this offseason. He still has something left to give and he would be a perfect offensive compliment. Let the bidding begin.

Havlat might as well have retired lol. Yeah I'd take Boyle back so long as it was a 1 year deal. He has been on decline the past few years. Still very good tho

  The following are the top unrestricted free agents this coming offseason. 

 

Goalies lead the class. Stars and depth players include:

 

Ryan Miller

Jonas Hiller

Jaroslav Halak

Brian Elliott

Chad Johnson

 

Defense is a thin group, a few aging veterans but Matt Niskanen is due a huge payday

 

Matt Niskanen

Andrei Markov

Dan Boyle

Marek Zidlicky

Kimmo timmonen

 

Center has a bunch of question marks but players who could help a team

 

Paul Stastny

Olli Jokinen

Dave Bolland

David Legwand

 

Wingers are deep and where most of the talent is in this class

 

Thomas Vanek

Ryan Callahan

Matt Moulson

Mike Cammeleri

Marion Gaborik

Jarome Iginla

Josi Jokinen

Radem Vrbata

 

  Overall, lots of snipers looking for a payday, deep goalie class, not much at center and a few solid d-men. My top ten:

 

10. Dan Boyle aging but can still run a power play

9. Callahan  two way forward and team leader

8. Iginla  30 goals this year.

7. Jonas Hiller. Underrated, one heck of a goalie

6. Paul Stastny rated here because he is the only real top tier center

5. Niskanen Picked a great time for his career year.

4. Markov  Can run a power play been healthy for several years

3. Moulson perfect fit for a lot of teams

2. Miller. Likely to resign with Blues

1. Vanek  Looking forward to free agency for years.

 

  Overall, a pretty solid free agency class, deeper than several years in the past.

If by several years, you mean last year's half season and this season. Not sure about Markov. He seems to be made of glass since he hit age 30. Granted he does have a nice pass, but he is turning 36 next year. I'd rather resign Boyle for 1 more year for less because he shoots better from the point. We have a lot of pass first guys. Boyle indicated he would take a paycut to stay in SJ like the other guys did and he knows he is not getting 6.66 million again with his performance drop. MAYBE 4.5 million for 1 year. Demers is getting close to being able to take over the offensive duties but he passes too much too. GRRRRR

Defense is our weak point. Having Burns move to forward sucked for our D corps, but he is so damn good as a power forward that I do not want him to move back. He plays so weird that people cannot figure him out. Hell, I can't figure him out. I watch him and go "no, you should never......what? It worked? GO BURNSY!"

I would KILL to have Vanek on a wing in San Jose, but we could never afford him. Unless.......Are you listening Doug Wilson....? COMPLIANCE BUYOUT HAVLAT.

God, Vanek with Thornton......Or on Pavelski's line.....or on Couture's line...Or move Marleau back to Center on the 4th line.....

Damn we have a lot of great centers.

Edit: ill confess, we cheat on faceoffs because we have so many centers. but hey, it works.

Confession #2: I would also like Moulson over Havlat.

BUY OUT HAVLAT

@J0e Th0rnton

 

Sadly, the stuff you mentioned was BEFORE the "rebuild". The one that Burke swore wouldn't take 5 years. The one that involved trading a 2nd overall, a 9th overall, and some guy with a cool name for Kessel (who is great by the way, but that's still steep for a team dwelling in the basement).

 

Now, a decade later, we seem to be roughly back to where we started. Fighting for 9th.

 

 

At least when they made the Nolan, Wesley, and Leetch trades, they were in the playoff discussion. Sacrificing the future in a major way.

 

Think Bowman still wants the job? I'm all for it. Although to be fair, I was all for it back then to. But MLSE hadn't quite had enough screaming yet.

 

 

 

And as for Detroit, they are a bunch of friggin' hackers and everyone knows it, but no one wants to say anything because Illitch controls pizza. And pizza is power. Pizza power.

I don't believe the current leaf rebuild really was a rebuild based on the fact that they had little young talent. Usually around the time of a rebuild, you have picks aplenty in early part of the drafts, or at least had some prospects in the pool. Before this "rebuild" they had little in the way of blue chip prospects. There was a guy or two who hit levels higher than expected for short bursts due to getting icetime, but blue chip prospects are what make a rebuild. You sell the guys over a certain age for #1 picks, sometimes having multiple #1 picks in a draft year and some seconds. Maybe hit up a free agent or two and build. The leafs had no second, thirds, etc in a lot of years and little in the way of building a prospect pool. Leaf scouts and GM's also do not seem to pull diamonds from the later rounds often.

2004, Nothing till the 3rd round.

2005, Rask (but they traded him for Raycroft *laughs hysterically*)

2006, Not a great draft year outside of a few in the top 10. Ended up with Tlusty

2007, Nothing till the 3rd round. Sharks gave you Toskala and Bell for your 1st(13th overall) and 2nd picks and a 4th in 2009. We traded those picks to move up to 9th overall to get Logan Couture(Who nobody thought was going till 20th. I love our scouts)

2008, Luke Schenn. This was a good pick given what was left after the big 4. Unfortunate for the leafs that the big 4 were a sure thing, but everyone after had a question mark. Then again, they rushed him to the NHL.

2009, Kadri. A very good pick. I think he would have benefitted from some more development time. Streaky but good. Best available pick

2010, le sigh, no first rounder. I guess if you don't mind losing two 1st rounders and a 2nd for Kessel.....

Then of course, getting Phaneuf. I understand why they did it, but I have never been all that high on him.

2011, managed to get two late 1st rounders in one of the weaker draft years ever.

2012, Reilly. May turn into a good player. Too early to tell.

But let's face it, this "rebuild" was godawful with a lot of picks traded away hamstringing it.

Personally, I tend to cheer for players over teams as a whole. There are players or duo's on a lot of teams that I absolutely love watching, even if I dislike the team.

When I flip through the channels, if my team is not playing, I tend to zone into which team has players I want to watch.

With the way they are playing right now, I'm not sure I want them to make it. It's painful to watch.

 

I don't know about "full-blown rebuild" considering they just barely finished the last one (not even sure it's done yet), but we'll see.

 

@jammer2 Their lack of identity started earlier this year. No idea why it happened, but it did. Carlyle may have lost the room. Not sure how many coaches they need to go through.

The Leafs last rebuild was tragic. Quinn and Ferguson traded away like 5 years of their future for elderly rentals and it haunted them for years.

Trading McCauley, Boyes and a 1st(Brad Stuart) for an aging Owen Nolan? A 2nd for Glen Wesley? Tukka Rast for Raycroft? 2 players I can't remember and a 1st in 04 and a 2nd in 05 for Bryan Leetch? And on and on. I kept wondering how the heck they could trade all their picks and prospects for rentals and has been's since I never saw picks coming back higher than 4th. Now I know they couldn't. It has been biting them in the arse for years.

I still find it sad that Scotty Bowman, a proven winner, offered his services as GM, and would come out of retirement to build a winner, but they rebuffed him because he wanted too much autonomy. Then they go give that Autonomy to Burke?

That teams needs to be blown up for picks, a few of the younger guys kept around and some real developmental coaches brought in. A coach who can work with a team of younger guys and help them.

  I honestly think Detroit gets one of the two spots, but that 4 out of 5 on the road to end the season, that is a daunting task. If this team ever gets healthy, they will be one of the top teams in the East.

 

 I'm thinking the Blue Jackets get the other spot, they play a nice hard solid brand of defensive hockey, and Bob (despite having the flu right now) is gonna be stellar down the stretch. The Caps need all world goaltlending from Halak and some goals from unexpected sources.

 

 Just thrilled to see the Leafs in this free fall. A few weeks ago, my Leaf buddies were all smug, but six straight loses (and counting) has them in a very precarious position, to say the least. It does not get any easier, Flyers on Friday and the Wings on Saturday night.....a very tough back to back for a team suddenly lacking an identity.

What Detroit is doing with basically all farm team developping centers is amazing. Their developmental farm is second to none.  Nyquist with icetime has been a revelation for them. And heck, he was a 4th round pick. How do they do it? Zetterberg was a 7th rounder, Datsyuk was a 6th rounder. Detroit can really see talent they know how to develop.

@J0e Th0rnton

 

While I'm happy that your workdays are more enjoyable, I can't say I'd take it over the Leafs winning. No offense.

 

As unbearable as the fanbase can be at times, it still hurts.

 

Also, you sir are a cunning bastard.

hehehe. you should read the April fools thread I made in off topic

I liked Seguin over Kessel as well and agree with a lot of your points, just playing devil's advocate and I do believe right now as far as players go Boston has less to show for it on their roster. When the youngins mature that will change.

What shows on the Roster and what shows in results are often different.

That being said, I was surprised they gave up on Seguin

The Sharks baby.

I may be Canadian, but I would LOVE to live on the beach in sunny Socal even on the league minimum. $500000 a year is not a small amount of money. Assuming I am a middle of the pack player making 2-4 million a year, even better. A lot of the Sharks live literally in the same neighbourhood and talk about how they love it there. you even see guys who could have made a lot on the free agent market take paycuts to stay with the team. Tight knit group. Owners have the right idea and the team sells out every game. They treat their players very well.

Jersey Color I love. The team would benefit from a guy like me (attitude). At any job I have ever worked, I go full tilt, and force myself through pain, 100% effort and call out guys who are not doing the same unless they have a good reason. I would probably get penalty trouble at first because NOBODY takes a cheap shot at me without getting retribution. I believe in getting even. I have only fought on skates once, but I have great balance and it was a cakewalk for me, even though I am only 6ft 170lbs, and since then, I have trained in combat sports and really learned how to get my base and kinetic energy into a punch lol. I would also not be beyond spearing a guy in behind the knee when skating behind him if he was trying to hit and hide.

If anything, i would have to train myself not to throw knees and kicks

I am pondering this more now and the last 11 games will tell. I am changing my order: 

 

1) Girioux

 

2) Getzlaf

 

3) Crosby

 

I know it is hard to put Crosby at number three since he is the Ross Trophy leader now, but when you look at it, Crosby has Malking and Getzlaf has Perry. There has not been a more meaningful player to their team since November, than Giroux. I am not just talking about production. 

 

For me, production matters of course, but I always  will ask my self if you remove "x" (insert player name) from the team, where would said team be? That is the definition of MVP to me. 

 

Its close all the way around. I think Crosby was the best player the first three months. While I don't get to watch him much, Getz has been consistent the whole year. What Giroux has done (put the team on his back) since November has been extraordinary to me. 

 

The lester b will tell the true tale of this. 

Imo, how the team is doing should matter a lot in Hart Discussion. If you are a standout on a top team, it is a factor. If your team is outside the top 4 in your conference, you better be having an amazing personal performance season to get Hart consideration.

In my case, the Sharks are playing great, but nobody can be clearly picked as a reason. Nobody is going to get Hart consideration under those circumstances, even though Joe Thornton is continuing to solidify his position as a top 10 playmaker of all time. I see Getzlaf coming up in conversations for the Hart, but I am wondering why he is being held up as a candidate above Perry. We play them often enough that I think they are playing almost equally well and are equally valuable to the ducks. Perry seems more dominant in puck possession, scores more big goals and is good two way, although Getz is better and overall, I hate him and Getzlaf about equally.

In the case of Crosby, Malkin hasn't been playing all that well this season(Despite what his point totals tell you), while Crosby is just dominant and the team is near the top of the heap.

Bergeron? Toews lite. Not in Toews class by a long shot but a great two way player.

Superior defensively(Small margin), inferior offensively(Larger margin). Yes, Toews lite, but not way out of his class IMO. Don't get me wrong, I would take Toews, but Bergeron is right up there among those types of players.

  Osgood always seems to be brought up in these conversations. I believe he was better than average but agreed, no star.

 

  Boston won a cup without a true star forward, Krejci, Bergeron, Horton, all very, very good players but no star in the bunch. I love Kopitar but do not see him as one of the games best, yet the Kings won.

  Lundqvist has not won a cup as pointed out by@flyercanuck but neither have the Sedins, Thornton, Marleau, Stamkos, Ovie and God knows how many highly skilled forwards. I agree that very good goaltending can be good enough when your team is surrounded by gamebreakers, but elite netminding can win when surrounded by average talent as well.

No superstar forward, sure. Bergeron is a terrific two way forward ala Toews and the other bruins forwards were pretty good two way players themselves. But they did have a Norris winning superstar defenseman and the best goalie in the league combined with that depth.

@flyercanuck

 

  To clarify, imagine that every player in the NHL is thrown into the pot to be drafted and you are starting a team for the long term from scratch, I think that is what I had visualized. Great reasoning behind your choices.

 

  I think I stick with Lundqvist. I know I am in the minority here and can see the argument for MacKinnon and even McDavid but to me goalie is the critical position. I have seen clubs stacked to the roof with talent die because of bad goaltending, the decade of regular season excellence from the Ottawa Senators being ripped apart by poor netminding in the post season comes to mind.

 

  In my opinion, it is easier to fill the need for scoring than it is to fill the net. That is why I would start in net.

Bad goaltending yes can ruin you. But merely solid goaltending with the right pieces up front is adequate. Osgood IMO was very average. Guguiere, Crawford, etc, good, but not superstar good. Fleury, streaky as heck, etc

But they all won cups recently