terp

Manning is an inch away from not being a prospect anymore.

I loved Hatcher and as usual would have loved to have had him on the team about 10 years prior to his arrival. Agree that Morin is a better skater but still like the comparison. Flyers will be thrilled if Morin is a better skating Derian Hatcher with somewhat more offensive aptitude.

Very belated post, just between us nuts who pay attention to this stuff in early August:

I can easily imagine Hagg and Morin playing as a pair. A lot of skill and two very different styles and skill sets that I can imagine being very complementary.

I love the Burke Homer story. Homer tuned up plenty of guys in his day; add Burke to the list.

My point with Lecavalier wasn't that it traded youth, but more that its long term big money which may be taking up needed cap space as your younger talents grow and earn bigger pay checks. I put it in a separate paragraph but should've made the point more clearly.

This is an important point. Ask Brayden Schenn or Matt Read or Sean Couturier. Those guys may think, with reason, that if given the minutes and the role that they could produce more. Holmgren doesn't see it that way, so we have Vinnie.

@aziz

"this hindsight stuff is frustrating."

Agree. Not all good decisions turn out well.

@terp he needs to make up for the skating with increased cardio, allowing him to work harder and chase the puck with more success.

Good point. Fitness is even more critical if you have any kind of skating deficiency.

@aziz

The point he makes is that Couturier's skating would not drop him out of the top 5 or so. That's a long way from "5 paragraphs of good points about couturier's skating problems". When you spin like that, it seems like something other than a dispassionate assessment.

This idea that he's being "hidden" in the line up is just wrong. If that were true, he'd be in Adirondack. He's in the line up because he's effective matched up against the opponent's top players. His first step may improve a bit but he is what he is though, unlike you, I don't see it as fatal to his offensive potential. As I said, there are a lot of ways to be very good and you don't have to be prototypical to be an effective offensive player.

i have yet to read a scouting report on him that does not point at his skating, specifically his acceleration, as subpar. you copy and pasted one in that went on for, what, 5 paragraphs? focusing on his weak first several strides. who is dismissing the opinions of scouts here?

again, it's one thing if his job is to mark a man in the defensive zone. going from standstill to top speed quickly is not especially important in that role. if his job is to push offensive possession, different story. do you understand that? if the puck is lost at the offensive blueline, and it takes couturier 5 strides to reach the speed it takes someone else 2 strides to achieve, he will be hopelessly behind the play and the flyers will be effectively shorthanded in the defensive zone until he can recover. it isn't armchair expertise, it is watching the kid play last year, lose the puck in the neutral zone and have no hope of recovering before an odd-man rush against plays out. it is also watching laviolette deploy him in an almost exclusively defensive role, which happens to minimize his exposure to exactly that situation. and, yes, he handles that defensive job extremely well. if that is the only job he is able to handle through his career, then i go back to my 35 point low end prediction.

I know you realize that the assessment I posted was entirely in response to a question about his skating. Spin on aziz. There are lots of scouting reports and commentary, most probably, that make no mention whatsoever of his skating. But to you he's Jay Rosehill.

Also, if you lose the puck at the offensive blue line, you have an odd man rush going the other way no matter how fast you are. So there's that. And I have an issue with the notion that you can be a really lousy skater and be any good defensively. Couturier's not quick but he's got good balance and is strong on his feet. So no, I don't "understand" that. His skating is good enough. Not every effective offensive player in the league has elite acceleration and there are a lot of ways to be very good without having Alexandre Daigle-like speed.

we're gonna have to agree to disagree here, because you and i are seeing completely different things on this. i'm not the least bit concerned about where he may or may not be rated as a below average skater (though you then go and post a scouting report from a bruins scout that goes in depth on his poor skating, which seems...odd to me), i care about what i see. i see a guy who, at this point, can not keep up with a play if it turns on him quickly. his mobility is fine if we are talking about shifting positioning in the defensive zone, but if the word "recover" is ever used -as in, a turnover has the play headed down ice and the forwards need to beat feet back- couturier can not keep pace with the pack and will always be late. his top speed is fine, but it takes him a zone and a half to reach it. and that is a problem. one a smart coach will counter by not deploying him in an offensive role. keep him behind the puck at all times. imo, that was a significant reason for his points drop off last season, laviolette kept him in as "safe" a posture as possible.

none of this mentions his complete inability to use speed as any kind of offensive option.

you don't see that, that's fine, we'll have our own opinions on it. i stick by my belief that his skating is well below average for an NHL player, and unless it is a primary focus and improves DRAMATICALLY, he is going to be challenged and his ceiling far lower than the rest of his skill sets would seem to suggest.

edit: sorry, new england journalist/scout, not a bruins scout.

I guess if you want to dismiss the opinions of various scouts who have evaluated him, fine. You get to believe what you want. And if you want to believe that a truly below average skater is going to be consistently sent out to mark the other team's top players (to "protect him"), you can believe that too. It defies logic though and assumes an extraordinary degree of armchair expertise, but go ahead, believe what you like.

But seriousliy, is Lavy protecting Couturier by putting him out against the other team's top line in the Flyers' defensive zone? OK, he's not being protected at all he's being relied upon to do an important job and he's doing it well, especially for a player his age. And while he's not a plus skater, he skates well enough to do this job and, I say, to contribute more offense if his role changes.

@aziz

I've not seen him rated as a below average skater anywhere other than on this board and yes, I watch the games. It simply isn't the case. He isn't the quickest but average skating ability isn't going to turn him into a run of the mill player. He's far from a run of the mill player already. I think the following is reality:

Kirk Luedeke: Skating deficiencies come in different categories/varieties depending on the player, but in Couturier's case, he lacks a quick initial burst and the ability to accelerate rapidly in short areas. Quick stops/starts/changes of direction are a challenge for him. You will hear scouts use the phrase: "has heavy boots" which usually means that a player doesn't explode from a standstill and generate top speed in the first few strides, but rather labors to get that head of steam going.

This is a pretty common thing with a player of Couturier's size, however, and can be improved with power skating work/improvements to mechanics and also off-ice plyometrics and ladder work to increase footspeed/agility. Milan Lucic told me that his off-season grass drills and plyometrics work (along with the power skating he does) has been instrumental in his success in the NHL after being red-flagged during his draft season for skating/mobility. Because Couturier's speed is fine when he gets going, he doesn't have all that far to go.

When you watch Couturier on video, which is what I assume you are seeing, he's already moving and in stride with or without the puck (when he's about to receive the pass), so you aren't going to see much wrong with him without seeing how he looks coming out of the gate from a stop, or during sequences where he's having to make rapid changes in direction. That's where the criticisms of his mobility tend to originate.

In my view, he's not a terrible skater, but the lack of suddenness is evident and he'll never be considered a "plus-skater" no matter how much work he puts into it. When you're looking at drafting a player with the first or second overall pick, these are the kinds of things that teams/scouts will obsess about because his stride is a little funky, and he makes slower, wide turns at times. That said, if Couturier picks up a step or two, he'll be fine. I heard the same exact things about Patrice Bergeron when he was drafted, and the difference between Couturier and Bergeron (aside from the draft position) is about six inches and some considerable offensive upside. Because of where Couturier stands to be drafted, the stakes are higher for him.

By all accounts, he's a good kid and willing to work, so the skating is only a part of his stock drop off. I think some of it also has to do with scouts having seen him more as a late '92 whereby there are some projections that see him as a second-line center. If that's where you see him in the NHL, then there might be someone else you see with a higher upside, and that could be a source of the talk of him falling.

To be honest, I don't think Couturier will fall all that far. His hockey sense and hands are outstanding, and he's got the right character/intangibles that teams desire. I'd be surprised if he drops out of the top-four, and if he does, then whomever gets him beyond that will have a real nice value selection.

Oh. I dunno, don't think it is unduly negative, or really negative at all. It is the bottom of the spread, after all. I think it conceivable, though not likely, that he ends up a poor man's Handzus. Somewhere between that and a poor man's Zetterberg. No? That's pretty much the gamut of possibilities, not really going on much of a limb.

I don't think the bottom end of his range is "run of the mill". You can't unlearn his hockey IQ and skill. This is why I say you are unduly negative. I guess Handzus is a decent comparison from a defensive perspective but Handzus never had Couturier's vision or finishing touch as a young player. He displayed some offense but no one ever thought he had elite skill.

is it? i'm curious how you see it projecting.

in all honesty, i could see him as a smart 70 point two way center, and i can see him as a fairly run of the mill 35 point defensive guy. to me, there's a pretty big spread on the what-is-possible front.

He and his agent see him as the former and don't feel like he has to get paid next week. Your downside assessment of him is unduly negative.

Couturier's game is projectable over 2-3 seasons. It isn't the type of game and he doesn't seem like the type of person to want to force it and put a lot of pressure on himself to be all things to all observers within 9 months. He's only 21 after all and in fact that kind of pressure probably wouldn't be good for his development. We're a lot more accustomed to seeing players and agents (and maybe the occasional owner or GM) take an impatient approach but this seems sensible to me.

@caluso

Thanks for the kind words.

blows up the team ?

i will agree by the time year five rolls around on the Streit and Lecavalier signings we'll all be glad the contracts will be over.

the cap hit for both players is not horrible though, in fact when one considers we got bigger, younger, and cheaper without a drop off in production from Daniel Briere to Lecavalier i can only look at that as an upgrade.

there is no diaspora of the core group of young players we all value. no reliable contributor has been dealt for the likes of Dan Carcillo or Matt Walker.

i really don't see where this team was "blown up"

Almost every year, this team attempts a costly, trajectory altering master stroke. You can call this something other than "blowing up the team" but it certainly entails precluding other opportunities in a dramatic way.

The closest it came to working was when the team traded for Pronger and went to the finals, where they lost to a team that was deeper and ultimately better, probably because it was built largely through the draft instead of free agency. That formula worked again this year. Meanwhile, the management of this team enters every summer thinking or at least acting like they are a deal or two away from winning it all. I hope I'm wrong but this year's masterstroke doesn't look to me like it is going to fare any better. Love that Bryz is gone and don't hate all the moves or the cap hits taken individually, but it is hard to take this seriously or expect much to come of it when it happens almost every year and particularly when It involves signing older players, including an expensive over 35 contract.

Tsk tsk! The bet wasn't a likeness! No injecting bad faith! Lol. I doubt we'll see it either way though. I'll be surprised if Emery gets two starts against the Pens. I think Mason will earn the #1 and Laviolette should be aware Emery has a horrible track record against the Pens.

Please...don't pretend you didn't think about a contingency plan...

Yet another off season where Flyers management blows up the team and rolls the dice with expensive free agent signings. We can debate fast, slow, strong along the boards, old, young, development trajectories and maybe even astrological signs. But I think we mostly agree that the annual make over of the team has become tedious and jeopardizes their potential to do anything other than pick 22nd next year.

It almost doesn't seem to matter who is available in any given year...."...no Pronger available? Well then, we'll just have to overpay for Mark Streit then..." If this is supposed to get me excited...again...well...it isn't working. I'll watch, but this is getting really old.

Well, on the surface it looks bad, but I did some research before making the prediction....we have not shut out the Pens since Marty Biron did it in 2008. So, I'm betting were are due to shut them out.

http://www.flyershis...sburgh_Penguins

If it doesn't work out, the board will of course close ranks behind you and come up with a suitable likeness of Crosby. The possibilities are endless.

For a while I though that the Flyers were going to trade for Halak. Do yout hink he would've been a good fit for the Flyers as opposed to Emery?

Emery is the best fit in hockey to play along side Mason. He knows and likes Mason, has played in Philly before and wants to be there, is comfortable with sharing the duties, is a veteran presence and, most importantly, can really play. I'm thrilled with this signing.

to a one year deal. Nashville didn't qualify him so he will be unrestricted today. I think he is definitely worth a shot.

As much as I like O. Lauridsen, I still feel he is better off with another season in the AHL. Gus obviously need to play with the Flyers now.

so if mesz and coburn get dealt, Blum could be interesting as a bottom pairing d-man

If I'm not mistaken, Nashville drafted Blum with the pick we traded for the rights to Timonen and Hartnell.

@doom88 When is the last time we made a major signing that we didn't have to worry about the last few years of the deal? This is no way to run a team. The "win now" attitude of this management team is sickening. As rad would say....chasing the dragon....rinse, lather, repeat.....

Well put. Steit and Lecavalier makes two such moves in one off season. Ugh.

@OccamsRazor

Morin is tough, we know that. I wish I could have seen how it started; if I had to guess, a smaller player made the mistake of dropping the gloves with Morin.

This may not be a popular point of view, but I'm looking forward to the day when there is no longer fighting in major junior hockey. I just don't see the point in kids that age beating each others brains out. It's dangerous.

@JackStraw

If we'd picked Hagg 1st and Morin 2nd, we'd probably be seeing less complaining from some.

Thanks for the clips. This guy can really play. And skate. What @jammer2 said, plus the nice looking one timer and the Drew Doughty-like effort getting the wrister through for the goal. I think I read somewhere that he was the captain of this team. Looks like a great pick.

yeah I don't get it. Now that I've done some reading/watching clips of these guys I am happy with Homer's moves today. He didn't go crazy trying to swing a higher pick and he got us 2 solid prospects on defense. What did people expect picking at #11? We weren't getting a game-changer we were getting a good prospect. I'm just thankful our 1R pick is a D-man!

Come on - try to appreciate what your favorite team has done and look on the bright side.

Just for good measure, worth mentioning that most of us have whined about Homer's #1 picks before and later been forced to admit that it was a darn good pick.

By the way, still a fan of Couturier, so please no one try to tell me he's a bad skater and a bad pick.

Morin has shot up in pretty much everyone's rankings. It was just a question of how high he was going to go. Any defenseman the Flyers would have taken at 11 would have had questions. The "safe" pick probably would have been a forward like Domi or Shinkaruk, and I'm glad the Flyers didn't go that route. I think both Morin and Hagg will be good players for the Flyers, I think the team's future definitely looks better today than it did yesterday.

I'm thinking the same thing. Defensemen are never safe picks, but if you can get a guy that big and skates that well, has a mean steak, has a motor, has hockey sense and has Chris Pronger excited, you diminish your risk. A lot.

Even if he ends up having average offensive skills, as an opponent, how would you like to see 25 minutes a night of that guy (or at least, the guy he projects to be)? Not fun.

Hagg is the steal of the day at 41.