icehole

7 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

They were actually talking about the Flyers? Must have been postgame, because they virtually  NEVER talk about them any other time...

I used to fight this fight with 97.5 constantly. The flyers could be 60-0 right now and this is what the talk would be:

1. Harden

2. Eagles Draft

3. NFL Draft

4. NcAA tournament 

5. MLB lockout

6. Godfather

7. Parks Casino

8. MMA

9. Flyers

Unfortunately, I can't fight that fight right now. The flyers aren't worth talking about, and to be honest, and the city really doesn't care about hockey. I really believe that. Philadelphia is not a good hockey town anymore.

20 hours ago, radoran said:

 

They did. And to an extent, still do.

 

What they don't have is any real gamebreaking talent. Konecny has grit, a nice shot, and has been a 20/50 forward. That's not nothing. Farabee along the same lines. Provorov, if he's "just a #2" is still a good result.

 

Allison is injured, but touted to compete for the roster next year along with that Radcliff guy. Foerster as well.

 

So, that's a "really good" pool - it's just lacking a "great" player.

 

 

Jeff Petry is sitting right there

 

I think it is too early to give up on TK, but if he's a key to getting an actual established player of substance, I think they have to consider it...

 

Is that a great prospect pool though? I won't pretend to know what the rest of the league looks like, or even what these flyers prospects are expected to do. I just feel like fans have been getting way too excited for mediocrity coming from prospects lately. Frost was a very popular prospect since they drafted him, and he can barely crack the lineup even with all the injuries. You named players like Radcliff, forester, and Allison, and you use words like "compete for a roster spot". I don't want guys that will compete for a roster spot. The flyers have plenty of those players. I want guys that will be impact players. I know it's not easy, but you'd think they could get it right every now and then.

1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Still too many fans there....STOP GOING FANS!!!!!!! I want to see it completely empty.

 

It all they have left to try to change their plans to fix this...all you have left to SHOW them.

A few weeks ago, flyers scored a goal, and the camera focused in on the guy with the painted face. He was screaming like it was game 7 and they just tied it up. I'm sorry, but I wanted to punch him in the face. He might get paid to show his enthusiasm, but if you're not upset about what's going on, and one goal in a meaningless game during a meaningless season gets you that excited, you're not a fan.

I wish it would be completely empty also, but I think (hope) they got the message already.

19 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

I don't really get this.

 

Guy had 24 goals and 47 points as a 20-year-old. Followed up with 24 more and 49 points the next year. Then 24 goals and 61 points in 66 games (projects to 30).

 

Not sure that's "underperforming."

 

I honestly don't know where his game went the past two years, but even with that he projected out to 50+ point seasons in a regular 82, even this year.

 

 

This could play a role, but at the end of the day I want my players to be motivated to give their all regardless of the circumstances.

 

If he really is "coasting" then they need to look at a "hockey trade" to get his head right.

I'm actually surprised at those numbers...better than I remember. I guess I get caught up in the "what have you done for me lately?" I feel like I haven't seen any bright spots in his game lately. Full transparency, I haven't had the stomach to watch many games lately. Maybe I'm the TK of hockey fandom...once I see the direction this is going, I go 20 games without watching. 

6 hours ago, radoran said:

 

 

There you go.

 

Are you saying Giroux is the reason? I believe Giroux has probably been the best #2 player in the league since he's been an NHL player. The problem is that they never gave him a #1. Imagine Backstrom passing to Voracek for 10 years instead of Ovie.

6 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 Konecny is a much better player than he has been recently. He showed it his first few years here. But this franchise loves to bring the Kevin Hayes types and build around them. Guys previous teams dumped because of their lazy play. Then bring in all their buddies and make it a slugfest. And I don't mean punches.

 

 

 

 You can find 10 goalies like Hart? Do any  of the teams that have them want to part with them? It took Philly 40 years to find a goalie like Hart. So let's trade him for a hope that we can get another goalie like him? When the powers that be found one IN FOUR DECADES?

 

 

 I would trade anyone if I thought we could end up better because of it. After watching Fletch and co. trades for 3 years I have zero confidence he can do that. I'm actually pretty confident that if we have a busy trade deadline that we'll end up older, lousier and with less draft picks. Cause that's his M.O.

I couldn't agree with you more about Hayes. Lazy is a perfect description. 

I said I could find 10 goalies that could play average on a bad team. I know this will be a very unpopular opinion, but I really don't find the goaltender position to be very important. A very bad goalie (like Bryz) can destroy a good team's chances, but an average goalie like Niemi can win cups. I see good teams come to play the flyers with guys like Anderson and Binnington (who is losing his job to a guy I've never heard of), and I have to wonder how much impact they have on these teams being as successful as they are. Pens won a cup with Fleury, then they let him go. They win a cup with Murray, then they let him go. Did they miss a step with Jarry? Caps are doing OK without Holtby. The best goalie in the league is probably with the current cup winner, but if they lose him, they won't fall off a cliff.

I don't belive in Fletcher either and I think he needs to go. I also think any player could go and I wouldn't be upset. As I said in a previous post, it would be nice to win a trade for once. Maybe you lose TK and he goes on to be a career third line guy. But you get something in return that gives you 30+ goals a season. Wouldn't that be nice?

@CoachX

I see what you're saying. It's hard to get a good read on individual players right now because theres really no motivation to give it your all. I can defend Hart if he isn't great for a game here and a game there. All players are going to take off a few games over the season, especially if it's a bad season.

I think my problem with TK is that he's underperformed so far in his NHL career as a whole. And to go 20+ games without a goal on top of that, that's hard to swallow. 

It could just be a product of how the season has gone, but as a fan, I want change. And as a couch GM, I know I have to give up something desirable to get something desirable. Flyers don't have a ton of desirable players, so I'd be willing to say goodbye.

I don't know. Am I over exaggerating if I think TK has done nothing for this team? Maybe. It's all in relation to what I think a top 6 guy should be though, and what he has done to make the team better. When the flyers are where they are, it's hard to say anyone makes them better. The only guy I have no problem with is Giroux, and I want him gone because he will give me the biggest return. I am seriously unattached to any other player.

I hear people always say that Hart is untouchable. Not to me. Again, has he made this team better? He's played to the level of the team in front of him. I can find 10 goalies who could do that. Everyone is so scared to ever lose Coots. Although he has become a better player than I thought he would be, you're not going to win anything putting 4 lines of couturiers out there. Provorov plays 26 minutes but his play has regressed.

So what are we holding onto here people? These players are the reason we are where we are. They are all great individual talents but they just don't get it done. Change it!

When was the last time you actually felt that the flyers really "won a trade"? I feel like it was around the time of the Hartnell, Timmo, Coburn deals. And that was by a guy who everyone hates. One of the reasons they haven't won a trade is because they haven't really offered up anything significant in a while. Was Patrick significant? 

I say give Danny a chance. Is he qualified? Hell if I know. I don't care...it's change. What's the worst that could happen...flyers become a bottom team in the league? Isn't that what they are anyway?

The big focus at the trade deadline is to try to get what they can for Giroux. He is their best bet to get some decent players/prospects for the future. In a deal like that, lower impact players  may be included in the deal just to make it work.

For the first time, I saw Travis Konecney's name mentioned as a trade possibility. Apparently LA is interested. What are your thoughts? I don't know what LA has to offer in return, but I wouldn't mind saying goodbye. Just like many flyers in the past 30 years, he was so promising in the beginning. Then 5 years goes by and you have to ask what has he done? He's a small agitator with a reputation of getting under players' skin. I usually like players like that but I think he's a punk. I think his act is tired. I think if you go 20 games without scoring a goal, you should put your head down and shut your mouth. I think when you're playing Buffalo, you're down a few goals and someone wants to mix it up, but you turtle to get a PP (which they never do anything with anyway), you're just a pu$$y.

Bye Bye!

Because I'm bored, when Conor Sheary and Tom Wilson scored, I decided to look up their goal totals for the season.

Conor Sheary - 11 goals in 40 games

Tom Wilson - 11 goals in 35 games

Claude Giroux - 11 goals in 40 games

A lot of people look at Wilson as being a goon.  Conor Sheary is a scrub.  I love Giroux but he has underperformed greatly for a few years now.  Your star captain can't be tied with Conor Sheary

Rinaldo was worth a third...just sayin

24 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

@icehole

 

Edit: I retracted my statement and finished reading your post i don't mean to take my frustration with this team out on you.

 

I am fine with the fight he got it out his system and well he too is still fighting for a spot on the club and has been through hell and back to be here and well he cares it seems and he took it out on a punk. I'm good with it.

 

We agree to disagree. So much bigger issues with this club than this.

 

I don't know how they fix this dumpster fire...

 

 

Not a problem man.  We're all a little tense these days.  I also don't want to seem like one of these new age guys that doesn't believe in fighting.  I like it and believe it serves a purpose.  I think the right players have to do it at the right time though.  Even if they went old school and put a goon out there every night, that would make more sense.  It just didn't feel like genuine emotion for a guy that doesn't really have a bond with this team who plays about 4 minutes 5 games a season to ragdoll a smaller guy at the end of a second wooping, when he wasn't even involved in the first one.

Here's a hot take.  I would take Rinaldo or Carcillo on this team for 82 games a season rather than play Morin for 5.  Those two guys contributed more than Morin ever will.

30 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Finally someone shows some emotion and some frustration...some goddamn life even if it was a meaningless fight....WTF has the rest of these bums do except cower under their chairs??

 

 

 

Sorry friend but this ain't no rut...it's a complete nuclear meltdown by professionals (supposedly).

 

 

The understatement of the year.

 

I mean their franchise goalie looks like he has been lobotomized.

 

I am fresh out of fcuks to give. 

 

 

WTF is Claude Giroux or Jakub Voracek?? Today is not the day to come around with all this sh it today bud.

 

Not the day.

 

Especially after being beat by the Rangers 17-3 over the last two games...and now they have been passed by them in the standings...no end in site.

I don't see it as emotion.  Emotion would be to start something early because you're emotional about the last game.  I don't think he played the last rangers game.  Emotion is starting something after 3-0 to pick your team up.  This isn't his team...they don't care what Morin does.  Emotion is setting the tone for the next meeting.  This doesn't work if you just got outscored 17-3, because the rangers don't care what tone you set, you just got outscored 17-3.  Plus Morin probably won't play on Saturday so he's a non factor.

You're right this is more than a rut.  More reason why a meaningless fight at the end of a blowout won't get you out.

Giroux and Voracek and Hayes and Tk and so on haven't done anything.  That's the troubling part.  A meaningless player fighting a meaningless fight isn't going to make me feel better about it.  If he was a contributor all season and stepped up to show he's not going to take this beating, I'm all for it.

This isn't directed toward anyone, but I wanted to comment on something I've been reading.  People liked the Morin fight???  Why?  If the team is good and fighting to compete with another good team but they get beat bad, I like it.  If the team is in a rut and he wants to set the tone early, I like it.

This team is embarrassing though.  Fighting at the end of your second embarrassing loss for your team that you barely know because you can't even get into the lineup is just stupid and it does nothing for me.  Also, if Wayne Simmons, having a 30 goal season, goes after someone after an embarrassing loss, it gets me amped up.  Who is Sam Morin?  He won't even be on the team next game.  This team doesn't even know how to start something when they try.

I keep reading about voracek or JVR being possible trade bait.  What is their value to another team?  I think we (flyers fans) keep talking about it as a possibility because we want it to happen.  I dont know if players like that are in demand though.  I think the return would be average draft picks, average prospects, or another underachieving player looking for a change of scenery.

I never thought I'd say this, but the flyers need to get back to concentrating on the draft.  I watched a phantoms game a few weeks ago and it was tough.  I didnt know any of the players and they just looked like a bad AHL team.  All of those prospects we gathered are on the big team now.

So what do we think about this team?  When we were waiting for Hextalls plan to come together, is this what we were expecting?  I really like this team and I like where they are going, but I just watched every highlight of the 2012 penguins series, that team was much better than what we have now.  If Hart was on that team, things could have turned out much better.

1 hour ago, brelic said:

 

After getting Giroux all those years ago, we were due for a Bobby Sanguinetti.

 

I've moved on from Morin. If he works out, great. If he doesn't, oh well. They won't all turn out.

 

You certainly can get a good player at 11.  I just pointed out that flub because I'm not happy with this organization right now.  It's a crapshoot outside of the first few picks.

I actually like Morin and I hoped that he would add a presence and toughness the team was lacking.  I watch a little but of phantoms hockey though, and it always looked like not much was going on upstairs.  It's almost like the game moves too fast for his brain to process what's going on.

I really hope there is a Sam Morin type available.  I hope the flyers draft him and groom him for five years to be a 7th or 6th defenseman in the NHL one day.

4 hours ago, radoran said:

Were Caps fans happy making the playoffs nine out of ten years before winning the Cup?

I would say yes.  They thought they had a chance to win every year too.  They even made some "rental" trades to do so but that didn't work out.

2 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

You're right...Edmonton is trading McDavid.

 

 The point is if you don't just throw draft picks in on trades all the time, some of them can turn into very good players. 

 

 Homer threw aways 1sts, 2nds 3rds, whatever, he didn't care. When Hextall made trades, the throw ins were coming back to us. That's part of the reason we have a prospect pool now. Homer left us with a pool alright...of vomit.

 

 Neither GM won us a cup...but Hextall didn't win one in half the time...and left the team sitting in a lot better shape than Homer did. Fletcher steps in with some good pieces, a deep cupboard of prospects at every single position and a ton of capspace. Homer just couldn't take that anymore. MUST WIN NOW!

I understand the importance of picks.  I dont put as much importance on them as others do, but I understand.  In the NHL draft though, after 5th or even 3rd pick sometimes, you dont know what you're getting.  So if you can get something that is known, and it cost you a role of the dice in the second round, I dont mind that strategy.

For the record, I dont think it was fair to fire Hextall now.  For someone like me who wasnt a fan of Hextalls philosophy, the damage was done when you hired him to carry out his plan.  You might as well see it through.  Hiring a new GM wont put butts in the seats immediately unless he does something drastic (we'll see soon).  I think a coaching change would make more of an impact on the way the team plays.

I like the excitement of change especially because this team has been irrelevant.  Fletcher seems like a guy who wont let this team get stale like it has been.  His resume doesn't impress me though.  I've never liked Minnesota's teams.  Parise wasnt at superstar level and a guy like Suter wouldn't thrill me.  His other deals weren't exciting either.

I think Hextall did set the table nicely but maybe Holmgren didnt have confidence that he would take the next step.  Hopefully Fletcher will continue with what Hextall left for him while adding a little bit of his own touch to add some star talent.

9 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

Ghost was a third round pick,  just sayin'

You're right...I would take Ghost over McDavid.

4 hours ago, yave1964 said:

I like it for your guys. He is not afraid to go for it, to try for the home run

 

He is not a stand still GM which IMHO is why he was brought in. 

 

  I personally think he will hit the ground running putting his stamp on the team within the first 30 days with a big splash.

That is very exciting and would be a nice change of pace.

4 hours ago, murraycraven said:

 

 

Dale Weise and a second for McJesus.... you heard it here first!

Unfortunately there would be people on here saying "that's such a Homer move.  You cant go handing out second round picks like candy.  That pick could turn out amazing in 5 years."

You would think so,'t you?

 

I don't think it would work this way, though.  I bet you a ham sandwich that instead you have teams being extra cautious in the 5 minute overtime so they don't lose the point they would get by ending overtime with the status quo (a tie forcing the shootout).  Because if they go all out for that extra point, they risk the possibility of losing their point they get for doing nothing.

 

Sounds crazy and in opposition to what you would hope to call "sportsmanship," but this game is full of examples where rules are put in seemingly to help either competition or safety and players/teams game it opposite to the intent  (weak example but it came to mind quickly:  you put in a rule that you can't hit from behind near the boards.   So what do players do?  They begin standing right in front of the boards with their head down as if Mecca is on the other side).

 

In general, I like your idea (except that its intent seems to be to work with the shootout, which I hate--but that's just personal preference).  I just wonder if it wouldn't end up having the opposite effect.   Plus, it actually seems to have the effect of increasing the importance of the shootout (versus the overtime) rather than lessening it.  A point for a shootout loss but nothing for an OT loss.

Let me start by saying the thing I hate most in sports is a tie.  Soccer may be the most popular sport in the world but one thing I hate is the ties.  It's like the game was never played.  Fans leave the game feeling empty most of the time.  On the other hand, I think there is too much importance put on the shootout.  You can be completely outplayed for 65 minutes but because you have a player with the pedigree of a southern Cali in-line men's league that can twirl a puck, you could get double the points.  It just doesn't seem right.  I enjoy the shootout.  It's neat to see the moves and you can leave feeling like your team lost or won the game.  I just want to lessen its importance a little.

So I came up with this system.  Not sure if it was suggested yet but I haven't seen it.  What about 2pts for OT or regulation win/ 0pts for OT or regulation loss.  If after a 5 minute OT there is no winner, both teams get 1pt...that way there are still only 2pts available for each game instead of 3pts for some and 2 for others.  Both teams battled and deserve a point.  The game would then go to a shootout but you would receive a win for winning the shootout and a loss for losing the shootout.  Shootout winner = 1pts+W/ Shootout loser gets 1pt+L.  This would make teams want to win more in regulation or OT for that extra point.

Here's one scenario

Buffalo goes 20-45 in reg or OT but goes 12-5 in the SO.  That gives them 57pts and 32wins (32 wins should get you 64pts...shootout doesn't make much difference)

Detroit goes 45-20 in reg or OT but goes 5-12 in the SO.  That gives them 107pts and 50wins (50 wins should get you 100pts...shootout doesn't make much difference)

Wins would still come into play as far as tie-breakers go but points are the ultimate goal to climb in the standings.

I tried to come up with scenarios that would make this system a bad thing but my brains are scrambled eggs.  Let me know what you guys think

are killing us.  Any opponents around us play, and it seems lately, they're all going to OT!  Its a flawed system, at best.

 

I'd like to see a system of : reg. win = 3  OT/SO win = 2  OT/SO loss = 1

 

are killing us.  Any opponents around us play, and it seems lately, they're all going to OT!  Its a flawed system, at best.

 

I'd like to see a system of : reg. win = 3  OT/SO win = 2  OT/SO loss = 1

 

 

rebuilds don't happen after a couple seasons.  a rebuild is a 5+ year project.  tough to say "it hasn't worked" when it is only half done.

 

and there's the thing, the reason that the flyers will never go through a traditional, chicago-style rebuild:  the fans have nowhere near the patience for it.  midway into the second not-great season and they will be calling for everyone to be fired and everyone to be traded.  the blackhawks missed the playoffs 9 of the 11 seasons prior to winning their cup.  you ready to have the flyers miss the playoffs another 8 seasons over the next decade or not?