vis

19 hours ago, radoran said:

When you look at "bad deals" I don't think Snider was really saying "we need Steve Eminger" or "gosh, Kyle Calder/Kris Versteeg is a must-have" or "we've just got to have Lecavalier" or "we need to draft Kevin Marshall, so trade a 2nd and 3rd to get the 2nd you traded for Biron."

Generally, I agree (though, I also agree that Snider was probably pretty direct about signing Bryzgalov, trading Carter and Richards and possibly signing VLC and sheeting Weber).  But, Snider established the agenda/strategy/philosophy for the team, e.g., "do what you must to win now," which in turn lead to Holmgren decimating the prospect pool and making some dubious signings and trades and hiring/firing coaches.  I think Holmgren, in many instances, was reacting to Snider's edicts.  

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

He slightly overpays everyone, which doesn't seem like much per contract but ends up totalling millions and millions. 

And his trades, too.  Always slightly overpays.  It’s death by a thousand paper cuts.  

46 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

I thought for what he brings he would get slightly more than Raffl did so i have him around 1.8 mill per on a 2 year deal.

That’s what I was think would be ideal.  Thought $2.1m max.  This is another slight overpayment.  Seems to me the org was at $1.8 and the player at $2.8 and split the difference.  

Slight overpayment, so not a big deal.  But the pattern continues...

Another bit of an overpayment.  I think Laughton is an OK player, but that’s not the kind of cap hit I want on my 4th line.  And I’m not sure he’s talented enough to deserve the 3RW position full time.  He does things this team needs, but not sure at a level that merits that salary.

Has Fletcher made any moves where he didn’t at least slightly overpay?  Honestly, don’t think I have said “good value” for any of his moves.

How much is left to sign Provorov and Konecny?   Really worried Columbus is going to give Werenski a ridiculous contract.  

12 hours ago, CoachX said:

Why? Please explain

As for Holmgren, it’s the sense I get when looking at some of his moves and the culture within which he operated, eg Snider and now Comcast.  I don’t think some of his moves were rational, but were made at the behest of his bosses.  I think he very much respects “chain of command” and that’s an admirable trait, to a degree.  And by the way, I didn’t mean what I said as an insult to Holmgren.  I think he gets bashed unfairly at times as a result of actions/strategies his bosses wanted him to take.

22 hours ago, CoachX said:

Guy managed to serve the franchise in some capacity or another for 40 years. I doubt it was because he was a mindless cement head incapable of rational thought

I didn't say that he was a "mindless cement head."  I said I think he was a loyal soldier to his bosses and carried out their orders.  That's it.

Quote

I imagine some on this forum werent around back then. Some never got to see him play. The guy was a warrior. I personally appreciate the dedication and impact he had on the team ive loved and watched my entire life

This is some sanctimonious BS.

17 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

I wonder if firing Hextall helped to expedite this process.  He looked like he wanted to be anywhere but at that podium saying those words, answering those questions.

Like most people he wasn't perfect, I do think he's more than just a decent person.

Yeah, I don't think Holmgren wanted to be the hatchet man re: Hextall, but, being the soldier he is, he did it anyway.  I would not be surprised if that took the wind out of him and I wonder if he decided back then that he'd step aside once the GM and coach were firmly in place.  I do think Holmgren is a good man.  I think it pained him to let Hextall go.

17 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

I thought was pretty shrewd early in  his tenure as GM.

16 hours ago, radoran said:

 

I disagree in the context that I'm agreeing with @mojo1917 about early in his tenure.

 

I don't think the Hartnell/Timonen/Briere deals were dictated. I think they were his moves. I'm also pretty sure the Pronger deal is the kind of thing he would have come up with.

 

When you get to Bryzgalov is where I think he took a directive to "address the goalie situation". Agree that firing Hextall was a directive from Scott.

Good points by both of you re: Holmgren's early tenure.  He also made some pretty good trades that got Lupul and Upshall and Coburn and others here.  I should have qualified my statement above about his lack of vision.

17 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

Now there are zero hockey guys with Dave Scott's ear. None. 

You know, a lot of people kind of bemoaned the presence of the "old guard" still with the team.  Yeah, there were some issues, but I also think the pride those guys felt about the organization, their faithfulness to Snider and his loyalty to the players gave this organization an identity and made it a place where players want to come and play.  Nearly every time you hear players talk about the organization, you hear them say that the players are a priority and they want for nothing and that they are treated extremely well.  Players were excited to come here (maybe some players got spoiled by that treatment, e.g., Richards and Carter).  With the old guard gone, I worry about this team losing its roots and identity.  I despise the fact that a faceless corporation, who I question has a real desire to win above profitability, now runs this team.  Really scares me.  I don't even understand why Comcast wants to own the team.  I hope they sell it.

Holmgren's greatest strength was his willingness to carry out the orders of those above him.  I remain convinced that nearly all of his actions as an executive were dictated by Snider or Scott, or were made in furtherance of their directives.  I don't think the guy had his own vision, or perhaps it wasn't in his DNA to challenge or vary from what his bosses wanted.

Btw, I'm sure this title is nothing more than a placard with a salary and employment benefits.  He's moving into Clarke's role.

6 hours ago, elmatus said:

It really depends on what the team needs honestly. Hayes is not a scorer by any stretch. He's a fairly responsible center who averages in the 40s for pts per year. In many ways, he's sort of like a lesser version of Couts. That isn't a terrible slot for a center who tends to play defensively a fair bit, but it's not really what you want from your wingers, who are typically expected to put the puck in the net more regularly.

I think he's played wing in the past, but agree he is probably more of a contributor at center given his defensive acumen.  And if Patrick or Frost pushes him out of 2C (assuming it's not because Hayes' play is faltering), that's not a bad thing.

21 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I too wanted 5 years i will say that but yeah 5 mill per was never an option in fact i said i would go 7-8 mill per for less term.

Yeah, I didn't have much of an issue with term given his age.   But that term at that cap hit is a tough pill to swallow.

21 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

And at today's going rate will a 30 year old center (by then he can submit a 12 team no trade to clause) making 7 mill for 4 years be the hardest thing to move??? I say no.

Possibly.  The NTC (12 team no trade list) makes that a little bit of a challenge.  However, his contract has little lower cap hit the last two years, of which $1.25m is a signing bonus which might make him a little attractive to teams willing to take on cap for a lower salary.  Of course, those are probably the types of teams Hayes will have on his no-trade list.

2 hours ago, King Knut said:

Charlie and that whole squad lost me last year.  It’s a shame because I really enjoyed them for a while, but they all got a little out of control with the angry opinions reported as unassailable fact (but we’re nonetheless proven wrong).  There was no longer any grown up in the room.

I'm with you.  I had more or less started listening to the podcast and started to appreciate Charlie's POV of things, even thought I think he's too heavy on the analytics.  But that whole Quenneville fiasco was brutal and the tone of the podcast during the year was very "whiney".

2 hours ago, King Knut said:

They were all likely just crabby because of how the season was going, but I don’t need to waste my time listening to drunken idiots ranting.  I can get that anywhere there’s a tv and beer.  

Or right here on this board!!  (I include myself in that statement.)

On 7/9/2019 at 8:16 AM, elmatus said:

I haven't watched Braun much, but a buddy of mine who is paid to know a lot about these things has informed me that he really wasn't very good in SJ.

That seems to run counter to what I've been reading/hearing in other circles. 

On 7/9/2019 at 8:16 AM, elmatus said:

Sanheim was showing solid progress last season. I really hope he gets the opportunity to take another step forward. 

I think Sanheim and Braun will be the second pairing with Ghost/Myers as the third.

3 hours ago, AJgoal said:

He's being paid to be a core member of the team, when he arguably might not even be playing center for them in a couple of seasons. 

If that's the case, you don't think he will still be a top 6 player in a couple of years?  I get that maybe he moves to wing if Patrick improves, but I don't think that means he's not going to be a top contributor in a couple of years.  Four/five years down the line, yeah, it could be a problem.  But thinking he's not going to be a core player in only couple of seasons seems a bit out of whack to me.

3 hours ago, AJgoal said:

We already know, per Charlie O'Connor, that the Flyers and Sanheim were talking long term, then the Flyers moved to a bridge deal in order to keep the cost down because they found themselves low on cap space.

Who is Charlie's source for this?  Has this been reported elsewhere?  I kinda question stuff like this, particularly since there was that whole episode where some of his podcast mates (and Charlie, to a degree) were running wild with the whole "Hakstole fired/Quenneville Hired" story in the middle of the season.

3 hours ago, AJgoal said:

Again, I don't think I've seen ANYONE argue that Hayes won't help the Flyers this season - I argued in favor of acquiring him earlier this summer, back when I thought he'd come in at 5x5.

I don't think $5/5 was ever a realistic scenario for anyone to pay Hayes.  He was paid more than that last season.  Marquee 27 year old UFAs (which has was, given the dearth of UFA centers) typically don't get less than what they were paid the previous year.  I think a reasonable projection for him would have been $6m/6 years, possibly as low as $5.75m.  As soon as the Flyers traded for his rights, I knew he'd get the 7th year, but didn't think he'd go much higher than $6m (sadly, I was way wrong about that).  But I think a cap hit closer to $5m/year simply wasn't realistic.

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 I guess when I view Hayes contract I'm looking at it as a Flyers fan who watched Hextall spend FOUR YEARS trying to dig them out of hell from an idiot GM who kept signing players to ridiculous deals and throwing draft picks away. Now that that guy hired the gm who signed our next stupid contract...well, that's the insane part. 

 

 I watched Lebanc play here for 3 years on the Colts...I figured the Sharks got a steal when they took him that late in the draft. Looks like the gift that keeps on giving.

I just don't see the Hayes contract as "insane."  Overpayment?  Yes.  But not "insane" overpayment nor do I disagree with the rationale behind signing him.  After 4+ years of not being a meaningful contender - and missing POs - I totally get the change in approach.

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Exactly somewhere around what Kapanen and Johnsson got from the Leafs.

 

Dude needs to fire his agent immediately!

And what Konecny is likely to get.

His agent either did him wrong, or Labanc told the agent to step aside and that he wanted to stay in SJ.  Seems really risky on his part.

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 Absurd sure.

 

 It's not as insane though.

Yes it is.  Labanc probably should have got over $3m/year for 3 years.  He took a contract worth 1/3 of that.  He’s also RFA with little negotiating power.  Meanwhile, Hayes got maybe $1.5m/year more than market and at least one, maybe two, more years than folks thought he should get.  He was also UFA.  Labanc getting that contract is just as insane, if not more, than Hayes’ deal.  And I’m not a fan of the Hayes contract.  

The Labanc contract is absurd, and probably more absurd than the Hayes contract.  Very different set of circumstances.

On 7/3/2019 at 6:43 PM, CoachX said:

I give up. Sarcasm is not my strong suit. I also assume way too much in expecting that my other posts get read, making my position on the matter obvious

Sometimes I don't read so good, either!  Sorry for the misinterpretation.

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

What a second,  isnt that the reason Braun and Niskanen was brought in, to help mentor?

Part of the reason for bringing in Niskanen and Braun was to help mentor and provide leadership for the young dmen.  Williams could fill that role among the forwards, and perhaps overall.

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

I didnt think that was sound reasoning for signing a guy (not saying that was a point you made)

Maybe I misunderstand, but you don't think filling the leadership/veteran void, particularly on defense, is a sound rationale for trading for Niskanen/Braun?  Granted it shouldn't be the sole reason, but surely the team needed to address that deficiency among the d-men, no? 

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

For cap reasons alone he gets a shot as one of the forwards he is only 23. So yeah his time is now or never.......here.

This is true.  But my sense is that he's rarely mentioned when the team talks about guys who could vie for a roster spot.  Last year, it was Vorobyev.  And this year it seems like they talk about Frost, Farabee, Rubtsov and Vorobyev.  Granted, there haven't been many soundbites this year, so the sample is small, plus the comments came after prospect camp.  I don't know.  He may have a shot, but I think it's a longer shot than the others.

2 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

Man Williams or Marleau would be amazing in that 3RW slot.  They're both like the best big brothers in the league.  

Maroon would be a good choice if they can afford him.  Pominville is nothing to shake a stick at either, though I think I'd take Ferland over either Jason or Marcus Johhansson.

Pretty much agree with that hierchary.  I want them to have another leader among the forwards.  Williams is perfect for that role and has connections to the area.  

3 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

NAK needs to be signed too.

AHL fodder, probably.  I think time has passed him by, unless he comes to camp blazing (see below).  And by that time, the Flyers may have already signed another UFA for 3RW, making any shot that any young guy might have had moot.

3 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

Not sure if Andreoff or Gabriel are kept up or sent down...either way it could be a paper transaction with one or both.

Either is probably the seventh or may pull spot duty here or there.

One thought: might Laughton play at 3RW and have Pitlick play 4C and Andreoff or Gabriel play 4RW?

3 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

I think NAK gets that shot at the 3rd line RW spot....then if at any point he shows he can't handle it or is ready then i can see them going the Pommenville or insert name route. 

If they don't sign a UFA by camp, I think Frost, Farabee and Rubtsov will get a lot of consideration for that spot.  I kind of think those guys might be passing NAK by.

16 minutes ago, albertaflyer said:

I don't mind what the Flyers did. I think the biggest X factors this year compared to last is Vigneault and Carter Hart. I also think people will be quite surprised with Braun. I got to see him play a ton here in Edmonton. Very good D man. Doesn't get the credit when you play with the rest of the stars the Sharks had. Just having Hart for a full season compared to the first 40 games last season will make a difference. We will see a whole different system under Vigneault. Expect a ton of shot blocking and long stretch passes. I think that's one of the reason's Gudas isn't here any longer. He was not good at getting out of the D zone. I remember when he coached the Canucks it was really frustrating to watch because shots hardly ever got through. That's one of the things the Sedins had trouble with is Vigneault expected everyone to block shots.

Good points.  I honestly think people will be pleased with Niskanen and Braun.  Should Fletcher have retained salary or given up as much as he did?  Probably not, but I don't think any of that hurts us that much.  Hayes is going to be a whipping boy because of his contract.  But, I do think he'll be a good player as well.  A coaching/culture change alone should improve the team.

18 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Or their market set by Ivan's...who blinks first??

I think Werenski sets the market since I think he's likely to get the biggest payday -- not necessarily because he's the best of the three (debatable), but CBJ is probably desperate to lock him up and need to do something after losing Panarin and Bobrovsky.

Capfriendly has the Flyers with almost $15m in cap space.  Still need to sign Provorov, Konecny and probably Laughton.  I think Provorov is going to get close to $7m/6 years, Konecny gets a $4m/2 year bridge and Laughton gets $2m/2 years.  That leaves them with $2m in cap space.  Assuming those signings happen, the roster shapes up likely shapes up like this:

Giroux/Couturier/Konecny

JVR/Hayes/Voracek
Lindblom/Patrick/???

Raffl/Laughton/Pitlick
Andreoff

Provorov/Niskanen

Sanheim/Braun

Ghost/Myers

Hagg

Morin

For shits and giggles, below are some of the UFA forwards still out there (not sure any of them are within the Flyers' range, unless they deal a d-man):

- Justin Williams

- Patrick Marleau

- Pat Maroon

- Jason Pominville

- Marcus Johannson

- Michael Ferland