BearOnIce

You can't compare what he does in Toronto with what he'd be doing in Philly. He'd be getting second line minutes at best in Philly, and as his history has shown, not doing much with them. So you think he'd have 11 goals on your roster right now is what you're saying? If that's true, where was it before? You aren't seeing it with Luke Schenn? He has as many goals as your highly touted Timonen with almost zero power play time. Timonen's are both on the power play as usual, Schenn's are even strength. Schenn is plus 6... highest among your defense by 4 points, and on a minus team. He's been your best defenseman on the ice in the games I've seen, and leading the league in hits not too long ago, currently in fifth on that list but with less than half the penalty minutes of those ahead of him.

You agree with me that he didn't try hard with your Club in the same argument you make that he shouldn't have been traded? You're confusing things for me. Are you glad he's gone and just don't like who you got in return? I threw several ideas as to why he didn't perform well, without stating I knew why. So yes, pick those apart all you want, they're still just possibilities. I'm in agreement with you that Holmgren is not doing the job for you. I just think he did the right job in acquiring Schenn for a forward who wasn't performing in Philly. I don't care if JVR gets 50 goals in this short season, he wasn't doing it for you, so why hold onto him? And you got a damn good defenseman just starting to hit his stride it would appear.

We can boith agree that Holmgren ain't the solution. Good luck tonite against Stamkos.

Give me a second to go get some water so I can do a spit take...{speeeeewww}

I've despised that whiny little turd forever. No way!

You ain't the GM.

Hello:

I work not say the season is fake but it is compressed. That magnifies everything. Our daughter is marginally competent. Scoring is there in theory. In practice it's inconsistent. We beat Pitt and lose to Florida...In 24 hours. We get angry at each other. That's understandable after a 38 year drought. Lavy may be part of the problem. But Homer, Snider, and shortsightedness are bigger issues. Bring on Dave Poile and Barry Trotz...and have Lukko tell Brian Roberts to assume a direct control over operations.

Peace,

Howie

PS: I think Ruff will get hired within 12 months.

Feel the love my brother from another mother.

Snider and Homgren are the problem. Aw heck, lets throw Lukko right in there too. After all the guy is from Boston and he must be sabotaging the Flyers!

Roberts is a keeper.

Ruff will get hired within 30 days. There are lots of bottom feeders in the East that are ready to flip the coaching switch to try to save some face...

If they get rid of Lavy, Bryz better be going with him... Strap him on top of his car like a Christmas tree...

Exactly. Like a bull moose strapped to the top of a logging truck going up Rt 201 to Quebec through the Alagash. Get the picture?

I strongly disagree with this. I'm no fan of Holmgren, but I still think you guys got the better of this trade. You're comparing the trade based on what JVR is doing in the Leafs organization, not where he performed in your own. For whatever reason, he didn't skate hard or battle for you guys. Maybe he was frustrated? Maybe he had no chemistry with linemates? For whatever reason he underperformed for you guys big time, and this season would most likely have been no different as he'd clearly fallen out of favor. New starts often wake up good players... i.e. Markus Naslund.

Rather than an underperforming forward, your squad also woke up Schenn on defense, and he plays harder and more solid now than I ever remember him playing in Toronto. Win - win!

What?

"You're comparing the trade based on what JVR is doing in the Leafs organization, not where he performed in your own.

Why would you compare anything else? It's all about results and mano-mano I ain't seeing it with Mr. L. Schenn.

"For whatever reason, he didn't skate hard or battle for you guys."

Enough of a reason to move his xss out..

Maybe he was frustrated?

Yea, with that kind of money anyone would get frustrated. Maybe he needed his mommy to pull up his Big Boy Panties.

"Maybe he had no chemistry with linemates?"

Yea, that was it. Definately. Injuries or effort had nothing to do with it. Right.

"For whatever reason he underperformed for you guys big time, and this season would most likely have been no different as he'd clearly fallen out of favor."

Players usually fall out of favor when they don't perform. Your opinion about this season is not supported by any proof, all conjecture. In fact, JVR is lighting it up in Toronto while Luke Schenn is nothing more than ordinary for the O&B.

One more example, on top of Bob, Jagr, and Carle, why this Flyers organization will never win anything with Holmgren as GM, Clarke as Senior V.P. doing who knows what, and Old Ed Snider spending money like a drunken sailor to try and get another Cup at whatever cost before he gets plotted up in Laurel Hill Cemetary along with the long line of Sniders..

I just find the timing of it very strange, considering Meszaros is set to return and Gus has made it back into the lineup. Why would we be trading for defensive help when our guys are finally returning?

If anything at all is brewing, it's probably for the farm, or some other small deal.

Yup, 3rd line center.

Gus also moves the puck well, Homer pushed Lavy to run a more defensive system to help Bryz this season, and the team is not giddy up and go anymore - Lavy is running a more defensive system.

If they had a goalie worth a damn, this team would be able to attack and look good doing it.

Yea, ok I'll agree on Gus. Grossman is a beast but no puck movement. L. Schenn was supposed to be a puck mover? Coburn is regressing and Kimmo is getting old. Mez is coming back than god. Foster, don't get me going. But you gotta admit the defence is not the pride of the litter. Oh, and your point on Bryz is exactly right on. Maybe Homer is trying to get his trade value back up so they can move him. Anything to make this guy look good. What a mistake. That's what happens when the owner plays GM. You are right, it is killing Lavy's system.

Anybody notice this today? Anybody notice how late in the game he was playing - presume so with the empty netter. It is clear he is a good skater. I wonder if this is a one time thing or something we will start seeing more of?

His name is well known now. He hunts like a cougar. Bites like a Viper. Leaves the other teams player DNA on the ice and boards. The difference is that he is smarter, and is talking with the referee's. This makes a difference. He could have been pulling a sled and he still would of gotten that empty netter. Broken stick over the crossbar, nice touch of futility..

A little harsh yes, apologies for the personal aspect.

This compressed mini season though is fake.

No problem. I tend to be a little fatalistic on this team this year. I'm sure I bring out the worst in most of the Faithful. You know what it really is? I am waiting to see this organization actually some time before all of us die to have a cohesive, long-term plan, drafting farm team up, instead of the year after year knee jerk have to win this year from Snider down. There is so much friggin talent out there on the ice, especially the forwards, that needs mentoring and time to develop that I am afraid is not harnessed properly to realize full potential. For example, this GM let's Jagr go, a major mentoring influence on the young guys. Who cares about how he plays or how much, you kidding me Homer, what F'cjk-up thinking. This GM just is not good enough. 38 years (just amazing to me) and waiting..

I agree about Lavy. I think he is a good coach. My only gripe is how often we get caught with too many men on the ice over the last couple of seasons. I think it is something Lavy can work on.

I don't necessarily agree that Homer is a good GM. He isn't the worst one out there but I do think the organization could benefit from hiring a GM that has no history with the team. I appreciate Homer's tenacity and desire to win but he doesn't seem to realize we have a cap at times. Too many long term deals and NTCs. At times I feel like he thinks draft picks are meaningless and gives them away for no reason. The cap is going down next season and it will likely make things alot more difficult for the organization. If the Flyers were to miss the post season I would rather see a change in the GM rather than the head coach.

I will say this, no question Homer has got to go. Now on Lavy, for his up tempo attack style to work, the forwards have to be constantly in motion pushing the puck north. With this defence, and the lack of any puck movement except Kimmo, that is just not going to happen. I have not seen Laviolette exhibit that capability to coach out of his box. No a bad coach, just limited and inflexible.

@BearOnIce NOOOOOOOOOOOOO TO LINDY RUFF!!!! I would puke....multiple times!!!!

Yea, I got some peoples sander up over even the mention of Lindy....

Dude, what the hell is your problem. You hate Homer, you hate Lavy, AND want Lindsey Ruff? That is a ****ty coach who hung around because no one else wanted to coach Buffalo.

Look, I'm not saying you have to like everything O&B with rainbows and happiness, but I think it's time to chill out a sec. Lavy is a good coach, and Homer is a very good GM. Once upon a time, people here once lauded the hiring of Lavy because he wasn't part of the good 'ol boys network, and has a Cup on his resume. That was Homer's call. Homer has had more hits than misses in my opinion, but I am not going to go write an essay on it.

Plus, this is a fake season anyway. I wouldn't take too much stock in anything that happens.

A little harsh, don't you think? You watching the same team and organization the rest of us are? Fake season? ok.

I have tto admit that I have been pretty much disinterested in this season and think it's a joke so I havent been following the games very much, but I just saw that JVR already has 11 goals this season! I for one really liked JVR and am happy that he is doing well in his new environment. As I said, I havent really been following the games this year so I cant comment on how valuable Luke Schenn has been to our team - maybe some of you guys could give me your opinion on that - but I would have to say that right now the Leafs are pretty happy with the trade. Hopefully it turns out to be a win-win for both teams.

Homer got fleeced. Flyers will not go anywhere as long as this stonehead remains as GM. Snider's headstone will read could've, should've... Bye bye Ed.

I love the guy, but at some point isn't this team's constant lack of preparedness his responsibility?

Are they ever ready to play in the 1st period?

Hope they get it turned around.

Oh, and these 2nd periods have been a joke. I think the Fylers are 0-7 coming back from 2nd period defecit. Today will be no different. Time to shake things up as Flyers approach 1/2 shortened season.. I'd take Lindy Ruff in a heartbeat.

@jammer2 @flyercanuck and others who seem to know the young up and comers pretty well... what do you know about those 4 guys mentioned at the end? And are they saying those 4 would be to help out in Glen Falls or with the Flyers?

Who do we have available that would qualify as 'depth'? I'm sure no one would want Knuble or Fedotenko. And Talbot is probably number 1 on their lists, but it would be foolish to part with him.

I would expect some kind of trade after today's loss. No one should be untouchable except Giroux. The defense will not get the Flyers to the playoffs. Going to have to give up a good forward or two, no other way. That is the price the Flyers pay for not having a GM that does not know how to draft and develop defencemen. Bryz is looking more and more like not the solution, today case in point.

I love the guy, but at some point isn't this team's constant lack of preparedness his responsibility?

Are they ever ready to play in the 1st period?

Hope they get it turned around.

Yea, you gotta start to wonder. These starts have been totally unacceptable.

Wow, Columbus has three 1st round draft picks this year??? Too bad Howson is gone; otherwise, we could have traded Jon Sim for a first rounder

Seriously, how can they continue to be this bad, get high draft picks, and never improve?

The picks conceal the problems. Howson was a fraud. Kekalainen is the real deal. He will work well with Davidson. Both have Blues pedigree. This team is getting a lot better, and fast. Good young core. I watched them in their loss to Avs last night 3-2 but Bob was solid (Flyers are going to regret that move..) and they have a very up tempo defence corp that moves the puck well. I doubt that they make the payoffs this year but are starting to move back to the upswing they had 3 years ago.

So essentially what you are saying is the management is the problem.

I agree. The constant for years has been snider and his hiring of former Flyers in key management positions. I get loyalty but c'mon, its time to go in a different direction. I think Snider cannot let go of the past and as he gets older, his perceptions are much like those of Al Davis, Skewed.

The Coach:

Yes that is exactly what I am saying.

Management is the problem, but Ownership is the bigger problem.

It has to start at the top or the fans of this franchise are in for a long wait. They will get close, but it will be a long wait.

BOI

A bit knee jerk wouldn't you say?? Truthfully, I don't care what happens to this "season" and I certainly am not going to mortgage the future for this "season". To say that there needs to be a cleaning of house from upper management down AND trading our young talent is completely absurd to me. Stay the course and have patience. Would you really be proud if we won the cup this year??

I am not sure what is up with our road performance this year (we were better on the road last year than at home). That said, we are stellar at home. 11 of our 17 games have been on the road. That means that we have 13 more road games and 18 more home games (a 2-3 ratio). Lets see how we do at those home games.

I guess my point being, get off the ledge.

P.S. We are only 2 points out of a playoff spot and of all things, our goalie is not our problem this year.

Van:

With all respect, when the Flyers make a pro-active move like this and get someone at GM who actually knows how to draft and deveop an organization, let me know, ok?

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/story/?id=415882&hubname=nhl-blue_jackets

BOI

Great Post @BearOnIce! And there my friend is the crux of the Flyers organization!

1. Building a cup winner takes years to build correctly (there are of course exceptions)

2. Snider is impatient - wants to win the cup every year despite what it woudld cost

3. Alot of Flyer fans share this same mentality - alto have the we deserve the cup mentality.

In most simplelist and basic terms - Flyers management and alot of the Flyers fan base are INPATIENT!

Chicago is scary good and barring catastrophic injuries, looks to be built for many years to come.

Great Post Bear!

Thanks, I guess all I was trying to say is that it takes time. I read this morning that Luekko says Holmgren and Laviolette are not on the chopping block so maybe just spin or maybe they realize now, finally now, that they have a good nucleus of kids but it will take time. I suspect that Holmgren already has a game plan for getting the defence better this summer and although still a bit too early maybe Bryz is returning to form. This is not the Flyers year by far so let's look to next year. I suspect that future Hall of Famer CP12 is going to get tapped for a defensive coaching post in this organization. That, in my humble opinion, would be one of the best coaching additions that they could make.

Greetings:

I often tell my students that comparisons of the extreme cases reveal a lot. Looking at the standings this morning made me think about us versus the Blackhawks. Here we are, just shy of three years after meeting in the Cup Final. They are atop the standings in their division and in points. We are going nowhere and heading for the bottom.

So...what does it mean?

1) Being lousy a few years in a row means accumulation of Toes, Kane...Giroux is good but not in their league..or Stamkos, etc.

2) Quenneville may be a better coach than Lavy?

3) Tallon-Bowman are better judges of talent than Homer, et. al?

4) Above-referenced GMs can hold a core together better in a Cap era than Homer and Philly?

5) We say bye to Emery...and keep the likes of Boosh and Leighton?

I don't know all the answers. But the comparison seemed interesting. My deep fear of this season is the Flyers will learn nothing from it. They are "Path Dependent." They will deploy the same scouts, same whatever...and not ask some tough questions. Meanwhile, three years after the fact, the Hawks are Cup contenders, and we are trying to find some bearings. And our top scorer is an unheralded free agent, not a draft pick, something that can be viewed as a good thing...or an indicator that our drafting isn't so good.

Peace,

Howie

Howie, god bless you for being a teacher. Excellent post. Rux great add-in. I think it is even simplier. The Flyers have Snider as owner. In his zeal to always win at basically whatever cost he forces the organization and GM's hand to make moves they should not. Everything is a short-term strategy. Snider is a desperate man trying to win that desperate cup that has eluded him since he put a team the in the mid-70's that could win with a brusing style that was allowed in the NHL at that time. Snider does not understand that building a Cup winner is an organic and internal process. And it takes years. Snider simply lacks the patience. He is always trying to short-circuit the cycle. And, it is reinforced by many of the Flyers Faithful mentality of gotta have the Cup now. This year. Chicago is a good example of how it is done.

@ Howie,

It's too bad, but I think you're right about Lavy. His run and gun system is exciting, but defense wins cups. My guess is if they go somewhere around 2-4 on this road trip, he might be gone.

No Snider, Clarke, Holmgren or Lavy. House cleaning.

http://www.philly.co.../191561511.html

Sam Carchidi, INQUIRER STAFF WRITER

Posted: Saturday, February 16, 2013, 9:56 PM

MONTREAL - For the offensively challenged Flyers, Operation Roadkill continued Saturday night.

They managed just 19 shots and dropped a 4-1 decision to the Montreal Canadiens at the Bell Centre, falling to 2-8 on the road this season.

Afterward, captain Claude Giroux called out the team.

"It's not acceptable the way we played tonight," he said. "It's not just two or three guys. It's the whole team. . . . We didn't show up."

Giroux said the Flyers aren't winning enough battles, aren't competing hard enough.

"We're just going through the motions." (That pretty much sums up the state of the team.)

Coach Peter Laviolette refused to comment on Giroux's remark. (Because he knows its true)

"We have to show a little bit more emotion," said center Danny Briere, who scored the Flyers' lone goal. Briere added he has been on teams that have gone through similar struggles. "And there's only one way out, and it's to keep sticking together, to keep working hard. Maybe we have to want it a little more and things will turn around at some point."

In a battle of backup goalies, Montreal's Peter Budaj outdueled Brian Boucher. Not that the Flyers gave Budaj much work. Their attack was out of sync all night, and their power play was ineffective. (They have been out of sync the entire year. Can we just decline PP's from now on?)

Montreal (9-4-1) took control as Thomas Plekanec scored on his own rebound from the right circle after defenseman Braydon Coburn blocked his original shot. That gave the Canadiens a 3-1 lead with 15 minutes, 28 seconds left in the game.

Rene Bourque later added an empty-net goal.

The Flyers (6-9-1) seemingly got a break when Carey Price, who has been one of the NHL's best goalies in the first month of the season, was scratched because of the flu.

Then again, the Rocky statue probably could have been in goal in the first period and blanked the Flyers, who fired just two shots and rarely had the puck down the other end as they fell into a 1-0 hole. (Even Rocky can't help this team right now)

The Canadiens, one of the NHL's surprise teams, made it 2-0 as David Desharnais scored 1:15 into the second period, beating Boucher from out front as Max Pacioretty collected his second assist of the night.

The Flyers got to within 2-1 as Briere's shot, a knuckleball, appeared to deflect off defenseman Andrei Markov and trickled past Budaj with 6:04 left in the second period. It was just the Flyers' seventh shot of the game.

The Flyers, coming off a 5-3 loss in New Jersey on Friday, squandered four power-play chances in the second period, collecting a total of five shots during that eight-minute span. Whether on the power play or at even strength, they failed to mount any sustained pressure against a goalie who took a 4.33 goals-against average and .866 save percentage into the game.

"The third period we're down 2-1 and have to find a way to get it done," Giroux said. "In New Jersey, we're tied at 3-3 [going into the third], and we didn't get it done."

In their eight road losses, the Flyers have been outscored by 12-3 in the third period.

The Flyers reached the one-third mark of the 48-game season Saturday on pace to miss the playoffs for just the second time in the last 18 seasons. ( SETH JONES..SETH JONES)

Staus Quo:

The Flyers fans are the most faithful in the league. Flyers Comcast plays on this. It is about $$$$ with them as Robber Barons.

Go look at what other organizations do. It is painfully obvious we are being played.

Flyers will never win anything as long as Snider, Clarke, and Holmgren are there. Never. The complete organization is knee-jerk.

Holmgren always tries to look like he is trying to make the team better but his history of the worst farm team in the league says otherwise. he has no clue to build and he has Snider always wanting to win = No patience. Instant Gratification Ed.

This team has not developed more than a handful of defensemen in 35+ years. Don't even go there with goalies.

Why you let Jagr and Carle go is beyond me.

Giroux is proving quickly to be a young, struggling captain.

You have to trade forwards now, not later, to stop the defensive melt-down.

You telling me that injuries to Harts, Mez are the primary reason this teams sits #12 in the East this morning.

I am a Peter Laviolette supporter, but I am questioning if he is right for this team. If Lavy goes, so needs to Holmgren, and all the coaches.. Enough of the inbreeding and croynism.

I will make no critique of individual players except to say outside of Giroux, I would consider all offers.

Who would of guessed that on 2.17.13 this Fkyers team would be in this shape but Bryz, "The Man Of A Thousand White Tigers", would be playing well.

Ok, having center ice is a great thing for me out here in Colorado... I see more games than when I lived in Philly... in fact every game. Thank god for DVR.

In any case, watching this team over the long haul is forcing me to explode.

#1 This is the first year I can remember where Snider has not pulled the strings to try and help the team improve. ( Maybe he's catching the Eagles sickness... ie as long as the seats get filled anything is ok.

#2 For some reason, Lavy is having a hard time getting this team to come out and play. They come out at the start of every period like it's a practice session and the other teams are taking advantage.. Lavy... hint THE WORD IS OUT.

#3 I remember when this team ... note the word "team" knew how to hit. Now we just have one or two people who can do it and the rest just know how to skate backwards and give up ground.

#4 Now that G had the C I guess he needs to just pass the puck to others and not shoot... he did try a little last night so that's a good sign.

#5 Please, can someone teach the D how to play D... there's basic mistakes that are happening. There must be a cure for brain dead disease out there somewhere.

Ok, can't say I feel better but at least I tried.

Enjoying Blue Jackets - Yotes tonite on Center Ice. Yandle does not look that good. I would take Doan in a minute.

You are correct with everything you say. This Flyers team has problems. Coaching & GM should be held reponsible. Nuff said.

Instead of speaking to yourself, join the game chat?

I was having a meltdown. Big time.