Polaris922

Never forget Zajac... seems to come up big in big games for them.

I think you guys will get past the Devils pretty easily, but I do thin kthe Rangers will be the toughest challenge for you. I've felt the Rangers outplayed their roster all year, and for some reason my Pens had their number. But at the same time, for some reason they had your number just like you guys had ours. Should prove an interesting series. Lundqvuist is a stellar goalie though, with solid fundamentals and fun to watch. I think he'll outplay bryz of Bob easily, so it's going to come down to whether or not your offense is good enough to get their defense off the game and win on oddman breaks and shots in close with little to no time to react. I'm hoping for this to be the conference final!

He got his two minutes and that is all that should be said about it.

Schenns hit was a charge. He got 2 minutes for it.

Agreed on both counts as far as the penalty time being reasonable. I suppose I go back to the idea that elbows up means an intent to injure, where Shanahan isn't handling it that way. And I apologize for thinking the suspension on Neal was two fold. I thought when Shanahan addressed it he indicated both hits, the Coutourier hit and the Giroux thing. Perhaps that was just in some of the talk through here. There are so many Flyers fans here, I forget what was in conversation here and what was on the video!

Shero would trade Kunitz, Cooke, Sullivan or Dupuis in a nanosecond for any of the Flyers I named.

I disagree as far as Kunitz or Dupuis go. They're not flashy, but Kunitz is a solid performer in front of the net with 26 goals and 61 points this season. Dupuis also had 25 goals and 59 points with almost zero PP time and is a die hard player. He does EVERYTHING well. Not great, but everything well. I'll agree about Cooke or Sullivan though. Cooke had a 19 goal season and played well, largely staying out of trouble, but why not replace him and his occasional stupid penalty with youth and talent? And Sullivan was brought in for leadership and veteran status, but I think the team is seasoned enough to get by without him, so why not bring in a younger talent there as well. I don't see Simmonds as anything special, to be honest. Or Schenn or Voracek either. Read I like.. and Coutourier shows a lot of promise as well. I'm hoping Tangradi develops into something for the Pens next season, and maybe Depres or Strait can step up defensively. I guess a lot remains to be seen. I'm with you though, I trust Shero's hockey smarts... so we'll see what happens.

He makes himself a target and I actually think he's less effective as a player when he's over the top emotionally.

I agree about that. I think some teams get him mad and he turns everything up a notch. But I also think that sometimes, and maybe the concussion effect has a little to do with this, he goes TOO far and loses the focus he needs.

This is a prime area for off season upgrade but where do they get the cap space with Crosby and Malkin on the roster?

This I don't agree 100% with. I thought they did that with Martin and Michalek. Martin has been a bit disappointing but Michalek has been an exceptional shot blocker. I think the biggest issue is Bylsma's system calls for lying down in the shooting lanes from what I've read, and defensemen pressing into the rush in the attacking zone. The lying down thing does NOT benefit all defensemen, and I think Michalek is more of a stand up and press defenseman. I also think Derek Engelland is a good physically punishing defenseman, but not who you want on the rush. Same can be said for Michalek. And they won't be able to get rid of Martin at $5 million a year either. I LIKE Martin... he was solid in Jersey. Something's not right for him here though.

While Bylsma deserves some blame for the early exit, I think it would be an overreaction for any Pens fans to call for his head.

I agree and I don't want Bylsma going anywhere. I just think the system needs to take into consideration more of each defenseman's talents (i.e. Engelland on the rush?). I like the core the Pens have, and I think Bylsma just needs some tweaking to make it more successful.

If you can't move Malkin or Crosby, there is no choice in the matter and Staal has to go.

I think they'll keep all three to be honest, and I'm okay with that. Like I said if one had to go I'd make it Staal.

Not really or at least not relatively speaking up front. Take a look at the Flyers top 11: Giroux, Jagr, Hartnell, Briere, Simmonds, Voracek, Talbot, van Riemsdyk, Schenn, Read, Couturier. The only one who might be a "plumber" in any sense is Simmonds, and he would be an upgrade over any of Sid's line mates. I don't see much offense on the back end either, other than Letang. The Pens lost to the Flyers to a great degree because the Flyers are deeper and the Flyers core is going to be around for a while. The Pens need to get deeper if they are going to beat them consistently.

I disagree here as well. I think the Pens have plenty of depth, as noted by the season statistics. We acgtually had more twenty goal scorers than the Flyers, and that with Crosby NOT in that count due to injuries. Kunitz, Sullivan, Dupuis, Neal, Malkin... and I would take any of them over Simmonds, Voracek, Talbot, van Riemsdyk, Schenn, Read, Couturier. They're all "plumbers" to me like Dupuis and maybe Kunitz. Sullivan is old, yes, so we'll see whether he stays or goes. I like Van Riemsdyk a lot but the others aren't anything special in my book. Couturier is getting a LOT of credit for shutting down Malkin, and he may develop into a great hockey player as may Read and Schenn, but in my eyes the jury is still out on them till they have more time in. Malkin has a history of disappearing in the playoffs, and this year was no different. Was it solely because of Couturier? I doubt it with Malkin's history but it is possible. These were two teams with great offenses that ran head to head, and yours won. Fleury doesn't fall apart in game 6 and we may be talking game 7 instead.

Anyways, great points you make and I appreciate a different perspective. I like being forced to think about all this instead of buying into the same old rah-rah talk so many fans have ignoring their team's true issues.

Our Postseason Journal ~ A Collaboration by the Pittsburgh Penguins

One word sums up Sunday’s game. Embarrassing…and that’s even before I get to the actual play on the ice.

Where to start…

As a fellow Pens fan who just read your entire post, I must say.. right on the head man. Well said. I would only add criticism for Bylsma for not doing more to adjust. He didn't adjust the penalty kill, he didn't adjust to get Malkin away from Lav's matchups. And I think he failed to punish some people who needed to sit out and think about how they were playing. That's all I would add!

I honestly don't think you will see this happening. They actually structured Crosby and Malkin's deals to keep them both happy here, and both agreed to take "less than market value" to stay. As for defensemen, I believe Letang is a great D'man, and until recently, was very happy with Michalek and Orpik behind him. Letang is small, but his skating skills and positional play make him a great defenseman in my book. I honestly think Bylsma's "system" is part of what broke the Pens this year. He refused to make changes to the penalty kill against the Flyers and that meant leaving a broken machine on the ice.

If anyone has to go, I hope it's Jordan Staal. I think he's one of the most overrated Pens out there. This season his defensive play was average at best, and in the first three games of the playoffs was on the ice, in position, and still failed to stop no less than FIVE Flyers goals. One of which he actually pushed onto Talbot's stick like they were still on the same team. His `point production is okay, but all the hype about him being a number one center anywhere else in the league is crap in my eyes. He's almosty as lazy as Malkin gets at times, and without the point production.

That being said I think the Pens had a lot of depth this year. They had a lot of weapons to bring to the rink. The problem is, they peaked two weeks before the end of the season, and then Fleury decided to fall apart in everything but games 4 & 5 of the series. You can say the Flyers got into their heads and made them run around like idiots, you can say the Flyers just outplayed them, but on top of any credit you give the Flyers (which they do deserve), the Pens didn't play up to the way they'd closed out the season. They maybe had too much ego going in, or felt entitled.. I dunno... but they clearly weren't themselves.

We finished off the Penguins, the NFL draft is this weekend, and my wife is due next week.

I just feel so content to just watch playoff hockey and await an opponent.

Awesome.

#1. Boo!

#2. blah...

#3. congrats! LOL

As much as it pains me to watch my boys' season end... congrats to you and your Flyers! Your boys just wanted it more I think, from the very start of the series. Bryzgalov finally outplayed Fleury in game 6, and Fleury just didn't match up with three soft goals. You guys get to move on and I get moved further out into the sidelines than before. Enjoy the rest of your playoffs! I'll be at the concession stand ...

@Polaris922

Well whatever you wrote it probably was a wise choice to edit it. Conversation is what we want here. Hopefully it is a well officiated game and they call all the real penalties. Both teams will be trying to play discipline hockey. I'm expecting the Flyers to play a solid 60 min. Bryz is due for stealing one.

btw, you will be outnumbered but you are welcomed to the game chat, as everybody here is.

You called it.. Bryz outplayed Fleury who let in three soft goals. Congrats to you and your Flyers... guess I'll be watching even more from the sidelines now.

Let's see....Start time noon......check. Televised nationally on NBC.....check. NHL can help turn it into a seven game series between the best ratings drawing teams in the NHL....check.......Yeah...I think tightly officiated is going to resemble Darlene Cates wearing spandex............(Obscure reference for the day)

Just the image of that made me throw up a little...

Wow, I guess we have a new forum moderator.

Careful throwing "classless" around, and if it's ok with you, I'll post where I damn well please. If you have an issue with it, I suggest you contact @Digityman or use the "report" button if we "classless" Flyers fans make you upset.

Edit: Wise choice deleting that entire post and the thread title before anybody saw it....well almost anybody, that is.

When I typed it it was meant as a joke to prod more Pens fans into responding and get some conversation going. After I posted it I reread it and realized it sounded more of a barb to Flyers fans and didn't intend it to go that way so I deleted it. Sometimes after being up all night my sarcasm comes across more as cynicism, and that was not the intention. I'd rather look back and correct a mistake than leave it be for the sake of spite!

So are you trying to tell me Schenn's hit on Martin was worse than Neal on Couturier? At least Martin had the puck when Schenn hit him. Unbelievable.

I never said it was worse. Neal got a suspension he deserved. When I first saw it I'd hoped it was more Neal not looking where Coutourier was skating, but upon review I can't tolerate that kind of crap from anybody. It was dirty and deserved the suspension. I was simply saying I felt Schenn left his feet to make the hit and led with both elbows up. That to me was dirty too.

You meant to say he collapsed just like LETANG does when someone looks at him wrong.............I actually kind of agree with you on the Asham high stick..Schenn whipped his head up and back to minimize the impact of Ashams stick. Asham knew exactly how hard he hit Schenn and cuffed more than punched a "letanging" Schenn while he was on the ice. Bottom line is it was meant to be a nasty hit, and because Schenn was aware of his surroundings he avoided the brunt of it. To me, the dangerous puss moves of Neal warranted more of a suspension than what Asham got.

I don't think Schenn avoided a nasty hit. I think Asham hit him in the chest as his target to do to him what he felt Schenn just did with elbows to Martin's chest. I honestly think if Asham had wanted Schenn's throat he'd have had it. Schenn doesn't even really move till the stick is in him. Who could? I don't think anybody saw that vicious of a cross check coming. Asham got what he deserved.

@Polaris922

Do you understand the difference between a dirty play and a clean-but-illegal play? What Schenn did could be considered charging, and he did receive 2 minutes for it, but he did not stride into Martin, did not leap, kept his elbows down, and did not target the head. His feet left the ice at the point of contact, but it wasn't remotely close to what Neal or Torres did. There's a reason the league didn't take a 2nd look at that one. For you to make an equivalence in saying "(dirty play)" to both incidents betrays a complete lack of perspective.

I argue that Schenn's h it was dirty because he does leave his feet prior to contact, and leads with both elbows up into the chest. You see the timing and elbows differently than I do. Maybe you got a better video feed than the one I'm watching. I felt it was a dangerously high hit. Though I do not think there was an intent to injure, I think the elbows up made it reckless and caused an injury. I do NOT think it was the same as what Neal did, nor did I say as much. Neal got a deserved suspension for the hit on Coutourier. I do, however, feel Schenn's hit was still dirty.

Looking for a great game today... what will it be? Tightly officiated? (Which I think works in the Pens favor) Or anything goes again??

Actually Schenn should've retaliated at the spot when they were going after each other. I have no problem with hitting back, I do think it makes it pretty dirty when it's after the whistle, well after the exchange and on the way to the bench. Crosby is no different than Gretzky in that light to be honest. I remember Gretzky complaining a lot when lesser players held him up and what not, but players didn't take shots at star talent then like they do now, because back then McSorley came in and cleaned you out without worry of a stupid instigator penalty. The more the leage does to crack down on fighting and such, the worse it gets for the talent in the league!

I agree Asham should get suspended for the punch to the head of Schenn while he was down, but in all honesty (and I've been through this on the Flyers' forum as well) Asham's stick never hits Schenn in the throat. Asham got what he deserved for hitting the guy while he was down, which I believe was in response (not justified!) to Schenn's falling like he's been shot by a rifle. Schenn left his feet hitting Martin (dirty play), Asham crosschecks him dangerously high (penalty), then punches him while he's down (dirty play). I feel both Asham AND Schenn deserved suspensions for this incident. Why Schenn? Because the league is saying the severity of the injury caused by an illegal hit is weighed into the decision as well. So in my book it would've been Schenn for one game and I have no problem with Asham for four due to the punch while Schenn is down.

I'm no fan of Steigerwald as a broadcaster, and I think he's way off base with a lot of what he says. The Jagr stick thing comes from Jagr's days in Pittsburgh when he played pretty much every game with an illegal stick, and got caught doing it fairly often. Errey played with him for some of those days, and made several comments about it. Not a big thing though, it was always a topic of discussion with him here, with the Caps, the Rangers, and now with you guys. I'd rather have Mike Lange back myself. I dunno why the Pens insist on that idiot Steigerwald anyway.

Minus the thinly veiled mockery, good post. I agree, there are Flyers that dive and embellish. Some feel the game and match it for "strategy", others like Briere and formerly Carcillo are especially despicable. No honor at all. I will say though that little guys getting hit from significantly bigger guys doesn't always appear fake to me. Catch them at a bad angle on a near zero friction surface and away they go. I know they are all supposed to be pros and awesome skaters, but Hartnell just learned how to skate this season.

If refs called diving, and sometimes not the embellished act, this crap would stop very quickly.

Sorry Doom if it seemed to be mocking at all. My mockery was more for the Pens and Flyers fans alike that think every little thing is a penalty. I sit in my seats sometimes arguing with the so called "fans" around me who think every little piece of contact is a penalty. Makes me sick to hear sometimes...

Apparently you didn't read what I posted. I AGREED with the Asham suspension BECAUSE of the punch when he was down. I never said the league felt the stick hit him in the throat, I said I get frustrated by Pens fans who called it "Schenn's dive from the Asham crosscheck". I'm not just calling Flyers players out for diving. I call them ALL out. My point was that, as I said, EVERY team has divers. I think somewhere along the line some players decide it's worth the conduct to get their team a man advantage, and it's disgusting. WHEN ANYONE DOES IT. Pens, Flyers, I don't care who. I don't think you read what I posted with untainted eyes. As for Crosby being singled out, I've found it's only when they play serious Atlantic Division rivals such as yourselves or the Rangers. That's pretty much the only time we hear it, and it spreads quickly. Again I never claimed the Pens are the good guys and make excuses for their antics. I simply said they're no different than any other team in that regard, and I certainly never made excuses for it. It disgusts me as a fan more than it will ever disgust any Flyers fan. I was agreeing with a lot said here, especially Aziz's perspective. Thanks for replying, I just wish you would read what I typed next time without assuming I'm a "homer". And save your insults for the kids on your block, I came here thinking I might be participating in an intelligent conversation about an issue I googled "Malkin hit on Grossman", and this is what I get.

Oh and yes Schenn's hit on Martin was charging. He leaves his feet prior to contact. But no Pens fans are whining that he should be suspended for it. Amazingly... *shrugs*

I know you're going to say "of course" because I'm a Pens fan, but it's nice to see Aziz has it right. I get frustrated listening to Pens fans shout about the same types of plays you guys are. "Schenn's dive from the Asham crosscheck" as they call it. Yes in slow-motion you can see the stick never hits Schenn's throat. What I think the suspension was most deserved for was the punch when Schenn was down. THAT was uncalled for. I've spoken to Asham about it, actually, and he stated emphatically the stick never went above his shoulder pads. Regardless, I get frustrated too. I see Briere dive, Schenn last night took Malkin's shove and turned it into a spectacular swan dive behind the net, putting Malkin in the box... Coburn's sudden fall when his skate barely skips off Adam's in Game 4... let's face it... hockey is a contact sport. Stuff happens. But every team has players who embelish it. Every team has players who, like Aziz said, get away with more than others. Every team has players who can't even smile without getting two minutes. (i.e. Cooke when getting crosschecked repeatedly suddenly got a holding the stick penalty when he'd been penalized for having his stick held earlier as "hooking".) Crosby takes a beating from Flyers fans because he's a pansy or whatever some like to think. But the truth of it is he's a pure hockey talent, and he takes a LOAD of abuse that never gets called. ALL superstars whine to the refs. Yes, even Giroux. If a Pen talks to the refs it's whining, if a Flyer does it it's just discussing the play? It's the same across the board. ALL great players complained to refs because ALL great players have been clutched and grabbed by lesser players every game. And for the record, the "elbow" to Grossman looks more like a high shoulder to me. The concussion came from Kennedy hitting him earlier. I agree if Grossman had stayed down they may have reviewed it, but even the Flyers management didn't complain to the league about it, with Grossman "reportedly" saying it was negligible contact. I can't find that anywhere to confirm it, was said on NHL radio.

Aziz it's great to see a Flyer's fan who is a true fan of hockey, not just the home team. I don't think there are many of us out there anymore who really try to look at things without, in your team's case, orange tinted lenses.