caluso

Well, the Rangers are. As is Boston. If a well rounded squad of capable - but - unspectacular players all buy into a solid game plan, and the coach keeps that game plan current as regards their current opponent... game breaking forwards aren't needed. In fact, I'd say they can make things tougher, as they can be hard to keep on script. Look at how long it took St Louis to get in board.

We'll see how it goes tonight, but the Flyers have some thinking to do, and I don't think it is all about roster issues, exactly.

the bruins are loaded with talent. and they have chara. and they play within their system.

the flyers cant match the talent the bruins have.

as for the Rangers, i think we would all agree that the Rangers blueline is far superior to that of the Flyers. i am amazed that we are still in this series. if our goaltenders didn't steal us 2 games, we'd be arguing about draft prospects right now.

I guess that's the answer MC. They just don't have it in them to sustain a high level of play, of focus and execution.

 

The roster has guys in key roles who aren't "there" yet in their game, guys like BSchenn and Couturier, Simmonds, even Voracek. They all do good work at times but either it's not enough or it's too inconsistent to depend on.

i really appreciate your posts but Voracek is a world class player. he's definitely "there." b schenn stinks, he will never get "there."

sadly,  i do think that the flyers are not very talented but it's a team sport and a great team with less talent can beat a star studded collection of players who dont play cohesively. unfortunately, the flyers fall victim - far too frequently - to not playing as "one," to not playing with passion, desperation.

and, that, is why they have so much trouble with consistency.

don't get me wrong, i still contend that the flyers will have trouble with truly talented teams who play together, who play with a purpose. as i said in a past post, having 2/3 of a top line won't cut it.

i hope i am wrong, but...

I see that we've already started a post-mortem thread here... but, I'll play along. 

 

I think we have a very solid core of good, talented, players. Their development seems slower than we'd like it... but, yah.. our kids are not the Avs kids. We had hoped they'd really step it up here this year, but that is most def NOT the case in this series thus far. Yet, I'm still reluctant to give up on any of them yet. They're still young enough that there's promise. 

 

So, it seems bleak, but a lot can change next year and I think our main focus, as always, should be to figure out something...anything... for our D. Again... no STILL, our D is the biggest problem with have. There's no easy answer to that either, unfortunately. D men are highly coveted. We could make a big trade, but that will possibly hurt our core Fwd group. We could bring up our prospects and hope for the best, but there really doesn't seem to be a clear cut answer here. 

 

Timo is pretty much done... GrossmanN is hitting the injury bug hard and we still don't really know what we have with Schenn. That's not even addressing the other 3, whom are NOT perfect. So we have hot probs on D and we're gonna need some luck... or *something*. Anyone?

we don't have enough dynamic offensive players. after voracek and giroux, who do we have?

as i posted elsewhere, we have 2/3 of a top line - and that simply won't cut it.

i think that the flyers roster needs a dramatic influx of talent - and not just on the backline.

unfortunately, Gomer is still in charge, so he will probably trade for the sedin twins. it's not like he has an actual plan: see the VLC signing, which

still gnaws at me! why sign that bum when we were in dire need of help on the back end and our roster was already filled with centermen.

sorry, i am venting...

the thing that keeps going through my mind is "tortorella followed by vigneault".  the rangers have a good squad, but that's really all you can say.  they are a bunch of multitools who know how to lock down the ice in front of their goalie, make gaining the blueline a pain in the ass, and counter attack ferociously.  the first two are classic tortorella, the last signature vigneault.  there is nothing on that roster that should frighten anyone, but they are playing their game almost perfectly.

i live in NY and watch the rangers frequently. in fact, i thought the rangers would win the series.

however, i thought the series would be competitive. i am somewhat shocked at the flyers play- they look timid and scared out there. no aggression, no tape-to-tape passes, etc...

while i think berube has done a great job overall, i think he has shown some inexperience in this series. specifically, i think he sent several bad messages to the team, especially at the outset, when he altered the team's style of play to deal with mcdonough. 

additionally, i think the flyers are lacking top end talent. voracek and giroux are really skilled players. after that, who do we have? i am hard pressed to find another dynamic offensive player, and you can't win with 2/3 of a top line.

So what do you guys suggest? A wholesale roster change... again? 

 

I agree with you guys at this point in time. But what do you think of our roster 3,4,5 years from now assuming we let this core develop?

 

Giroux is 26

Schenn is 22

Voracek is 24

Simmonds is 25

Raffl is 24

Akeson is 23

Couturier is 21

Mason is 25

Rinaldo is 23

Laughton is 19 and not even on the squad yet

 

The more this series goes on, there are two things that stand out in my mind:

 

We are outcoached.

We are inexperienced.

 

And I'm not talking about our defense, because I think even Mike Milbury can see that this is an inept group of defensemen we have. That should take care of itself over time with Morin, Hagg, Ghost, Alt, Lauridsen. 4 out of 5 of those guys are very mobile.

 

So, back to coaching and inexperience.

 

Firstly, would you agree that those are issues with this team? 

 

If so, what do you think about the coaching? Is it also inexperience? Berube has less than a season as head coach. I wonder how this team would look with a full offseason and training camp under his direction. Or, could a guy like Vigneault coach this Flyers squad to play like the Rangers (for example)? In other words, can Berube be the *right* coach for this team?

 

On to inexperience, do you guys agree that it has been an issue? If so, then maybe the remedy is just more experience. Losing in the first round (*if* that happens is still good for these guys. 

 

If you don't agree that coaching and/or inexperience have been issues, what would you say it is? Why have the Rangers dominated every damn game in this series? Even our wins felt like the Flyers were hanging on for dear life. As a fan, I didn't exhale at all during those game

 

Jason Akeson out performed Landeskog both years while at Kitchner. Just saying Flyers have some youth just most are a few years away..give it time they are heaed in the right direction..

That was then, this is now: Landeskog is infinitely better than Akeson

I don't think that anyone around here is under any illusion that the Flyers have any pure/top end talent youngsters.  Coots has some very unique skills that will hold him in the league for a long time, and Morin, Haag, and Ghost might one day be serviceable NHL D-men.  But yeah, we've got mostly 'functional' or 'role player' type youth coming up.

 

I guess we didn't suck for long enough back in the JVR draft era to stockpile talent. 

I agree, what we have is a collection of third and fourth liners - at best.

Couturier has been playing like a matador out there. Ole!  He doesn't seem to want to initiate any contact.

And then there's Brayden Schenn........worthless.

If you want to see young players with real talent, grit and hockey sense, tune into the MInn / Colo series.

Wow!

Which, really, were the second and third worst calls I've ever seen. After the timonen / giroux one.

Flyers played a great third period. I was very impressed with their defensive effort and cohesion; everybody backchecked / busted their butts to get back.

Additionally, they counter-attacked very well, even though they squandered numerous chances to take a two goal lead in the third.

I loved seeing VLC center the second line again. I also loved  seeing Raffl paired with Read and Couturier in the third - great defensive combo.

As for which goalie starts game 3, I think it has to be Emery. Emery stole today's game, looking poised and confident doing so. I was really impressed with how square he was to the shooter. While I agree with those who say Mason is the better goalie, the question in my mind is this: who is the better goalie right now? And, I think that's Emery.

One last thing: we still have a lot of difficulty getting out of our own zone. That has to change if we are going to win the series.

Agree with a lot of your points for your squad.  Honestly, at the risk of sounding Devils like...  it's going to be cashing in on the few real glorious opportunities you get on Lundqvist.  He's so solid on the run of the mill shots, that when you get a lucky bounce or a two on one break, you're going to have to capitalize.  If you don't, it will be a short series.  

as an extension of what you are saying, historically, the flyers don't generate enough quality chances on lundqvist.

he doesn't allow soft goals (very often) and i am not sure we are skilled enough upfront to really test him.

we shall see.

I don't, not really. Honestly, I think the Flyers' habit of resigning early is odd. They have until the end of June to qualify him, and then all summer to actually sign him. Don't see any reason to rush. This could be a telling post season for him, may as well see how he handles it and negotiate from there.

He'll be resigned. If nothing else, you don't let 20 goal RFAs walk. He's tradeable, if for some reason the Flyers decide they don't want him back.

Personally, he is at the very least a fair quality second line player, with consistency issues that shouldn't be surprising for a kid in his first several years as a pro. Something like 2 years, $2.5mil sounds about right. Revisit when he's 25 and two years from UFA.

i agree - he will be re-signed. and, i think your cap hit is fair.

i have a sneaking suspicion he's going to be dealt, though.

It's exciting.

Kid has potential.

@King Knut

 

HOW DO PERFORMANCE BONUSES COUNT AGAINST THE CAP?

Under the collective bargaining agreement struck in 2013, a performance bonus cushion is in place for all years of the deal, including the last one in 2021-22.

The performance bonus cushion allows teams to exceed the upper limit with performance bonuses to a maximum of 7.5 percent of the upper limit.

For example, if the upper limit is $64,300,000, teams can exceed it by $4,822,500 in performance bonuses. Any performances bonuses in excess of that total do not fall into the cushion and are counted as part of the team's cap payroll.

http://www.capgeek.com/faq/how-do-performance-bonuses-count-against-the-cap

the flyers have a total of $3.2mil in bonuses *possible*.  which is to say, there is no way they can go over the bonus cushion.  which is to say, there is no reason to think about schenn's cap hit as anything more than $870k.

in your honest opinion, what would you do with Schenn?

as i said, i find it odd that they have not yet re-signed him.

How about the six Game Winning Goals Schenn has this season?

 

Tied for the team lead with some guy named "Giroux."

game winning goals is the most useless stat in hockey.

look at his impact, how he plays on the ice.

@J0e Th0rnton

 

 

Well everyones apples and oranges, because everyone develops at a different rate.  They're your top 5 scorers. I used Flyers on the previous page.

 

 I've just put up stats of a bunch of 22 year olds which show they aren't at the top of their game at that point in their careers.You can likely do it with most NHLers. Some are on a higher level at 18, 19, 20, but very few. You obviously can't make every player an exact comparison because they aren't all drafted at the exact same place with the exact same skillset/age/team and on and on. Couture is 25...2012/13 24, 2011/12 23, 2010/11 22 which is where I took his stats from. He's got a late birthday, so remove him if you want, he's not the point. I knew Burns was a defenceman.

 

 If you're saying Schenn hasn't developed as quickly as hoped  you won't get an arguement out of me. But we heard the same thing about Carter/Richards/JVR/Giroux as well as others around here. Couturier. They traded Bob cause they didn't have the patience to let him develop. Bring in the veteran. That worked out real well.

 

 As for the PK, I don't know. But we're ranked 6th in the league..

its not fair to compare schenn to bob, richards and giroux. all of those guys showed true potential. 

bob was clearly an athletic freak who showed great flashes but wore down at the end. let's not forget that he played a year of uninterrupted hockey- and in a foreign land without the benefit of friends or family. there's no doubt that the team should have been more patient with him. in fact, i was bob's biggest supporter. 

when richards played, he made a difference on the ice. it was off the ice, that he had issues.

and it was obvious to everyone, that giroux would be special.

i cant say any of the above about schenn.

This. There was absolutely no excuse for that hit. It's 110% on Rinaldo. Not only that, the hit there served absolutely no purpose.

Just a stupid stupid play. Especially in a 4-0 game where the opponent had absolutely nothing going. Just simply stupid

i agree completely.

he was out of control almost every shift.

lucky it didnt cost us.

I actually think is a bit of a min-perception. His longest stretch of no production was 6 games (end of march early april). Even within those games he was generating opportunities (ie. 5 shots against the loss to Bruines in april). Aside from that, he generally goes two games without any production. He has 33% more shots on goal than Vinny. Any outhits vinny by a wide margin. Sure he makes mistakes, but he plays the full 200 feet of ice allot better than Vinny. I am fine with keeping him at wing on the #2 line.  

 

Vinny has performed the exact same way (longest stretch no production is 6 games and goes generally 2 games without production).  Schenn and VLC are nearly identical in FO% (44). Schenn is 3rd on the team in hits while its a miracle if VLC swats a fly during a game. 

 

Truthfully, its a good conundrum to have swapping VLC / Schenn. I just don't see how its to Schenns advantage to play 4th line. Vinny is what he is. Also, so much of lines are about chemistry. Look at the move for Vinny to 4th line. He seems to have gelled with his linemates. Likewise, maybe the Raffl move will generate chemistry for that second line. 

i think VLC is starting to play a lot better. but, more importantly, i think the team would be a lot better if VLC centered the second line.

I don't agree with you that schenn plays all 200 feet, but assuming that to be the case, he would then be a perfect "banger" on the fourth line.

i think it would make out team much less dependent on the first line.

just my opinion....

It seems pretty clear that Schenn did not meet your expectations.

 

What were your expectations for Schenn this year? How many goals? How many points?

 

What do you propose we do with Schenn?

what do i want with schenn? i think i was clear: i want him moved to the 4th line.

berube has donee a great job of holding people accountable.

i think we all agree that schenn disappears for weeks - why not hold him accountable.

i also think it's telling that the flyers - so quick to re-up their own - have failed to do so with schenn.

@caluso  I don't get the criticism. The only part I agree with is he disappears for long stretches. I see a 22 year old kid who is approaching 20 goals (got his 19th tonight) and for the past few years he has averaged a point every 2 games. Not overwhelming stats by any means, but he *is* progressing. Not all these kids progress at the same speed, some actually are late bloomers. I believe Braydon falls into that category. Having said all that, next year truly is a put up or shut up year for B.Schenn. I believe he will respond with a 30 goal year, and there will be 5 more 30 goal seasons to follow. You're entitled to your opinion, I just think it's wrong in that particular case.

Aziz and I had a nice argument earlier in the year and I was curious to see how this year panned out for B Schenn. I was really hoping that he would blossom this year.

Sadly, in my opinion, he hasn't progressed, despite his 20 goals.  He is our second line center and is entrusted with some power play responsibility. 20 goals is nice, but, as I pointed out, his overall play, puts him at 132 overall in scoring. It's hard to get excited by those numbers.

I really think that the team would be very dynamic if VLC centered line 2, while Schenn was dropped to the 4th line.

Just my opinion

Raffl will play second line center? Is he even a center?

I'm with @caluso

I get the argument of giving schenn experience. In fact, I JUST had this discussion with @canoli in another thread where I made that very argument. But after thinking about what canoli said and now caluso's post I have to think it wouldn't harm schenn at THIS point to put the veteran at second line center for the back straight and the playoffs.

Schenn has been inconsistent and even non existent for stretches. Allowing the 22 year old to develop has been the counter balance. I support that and still think it's important. But if there's a chance to do something this year (I'm not crazy, I don't mean the Cup. Just a round or two) then call the season to now Schenn's development opportunity and let the adults take it from here.

I'm really skeptical about putting Raffl at center when there's 14 other centers (hyoerbole) on the roster

i agree with you. and besides, demoting him now shouldn't slow his development. heck, what were the past 75 games for? schenn doesn't deserve the free ride he has been given.

and, who's to say that if we get in the playoffs, we might not make some noise? in my opinion, our best lineup has schenn on the 4th line, not the second.

@caluso

 

 I disagree. Schenn, and not Vinnie, is part of the future of the team. We aren't winning the cup this year. Developing Schenn is way more important than helping some guy (who was bought out by his last team for not earning his keep)  be less pouty. 

i am not sure schenn is part if the future. in fact, i am not sure he will be re-signed.

and, if he is re-signed, i am think it will be on a one year deal.

put VLC between Raffl and Simmonds and move Schenn to where he belongs - the 4th line. i am afraid that having Schenn as our second line center is really hurting us. it puts too much pressure on G's line, especially since Couturier is being used as a shutdown defender.

to all of the Schenn supporters, the proof is in the pudding:  he is 146th overall in scoring, and has been is usually underwhelming self for months.  sadly, he has not progressed at all.

the team would be much better off with Schenn receiving less ice time.

Not only has Berube done an admirable job, he's the type of coach players actually like. That could give him some longevity, we'll see.

 

 Roys done a nice job coaching, (though he'd never win a father of the year award - those boys are as big of jerks as the old man) Take Nathan MacKinnon out and throw him on the Flyers and who looks better? I get that he's part of the team. But Roy got him as a bonus over the previous coach. That has to make his job a bit easier. Still, he has that team believing in itself.

 

 Bylsmas done a nice job with all the injuries. But for a team with those two players he has on it, they are one of the most underachieving playoff teams of the last 4 years. They rack up the points every year and are cup favorites. Then they lose in the first or second round. They made it further last year, even though they were outplayed by the Isles, but looked like Buffalo against the Bruins. Yes, Buffalo. But that was then and this is now. If they don't make the finals, I'd fire his arse.

I am thrilled that Berube is our coach. And, I have been since day 1.

Berube holds everybody accountable, something that Laviolette never did.

But most importantly, Berube has the team organized in their own zone. I think we all remember the series against the Devils when the Flyers were running around in their own zone like the Keystone Kops. It was painful watching the team try to get the puck out and that happened far too regularly under Laviolette. Laviolette was never able to get the team to play good, fundamental defensive hockey.

It amazes me what good coaching can do. And, finally, I think we have a coach who "gets it."

Not much for chiming in on the board, but I have to say you guys are on point with this one about the writers...the Philly sports writers are always stirring the pot.  If it is not Weber, it is something else.  They all seem to sound the same, it's like they all just sit around and talk to one another...start up their own rumor, and then quote it as "reliable sources say..."  Do any of them have any background in hockey or do they just parrot what they here from around the league or each other?   I don't think anyone of the beat writers has played the game.  They need to do more than just complain about who we don't have or who we traded away.   Just sayin'.

and then there's panotch - another idiot.

i think he uses the magic 8 ball to come up with stories.

Well when there is nothing new going on and there is aslow news period guys can just create stuff, even if there is no truth to any of it just whip it up and put it out there and see if it sets sail.....and Weber rumors all ways work...

Carchidi is an idiot.

He writes, "Which brings us to the Flyers' old flame, Nashville's Shea Weber, a game-changing defenseman who would dramatically improve Philadelphia's Cup chances."

That's true, if we didn't have to give up anybody to acquire him.

It's not true if we have to gut the team to acquire him. And, sadly, Poile is not simply going to hand Weber over to us for nothing so Carchidi's statement - like so many of his others - is rubbish!!!!

Not to defend homer by any means but VLC and Streit were replacing the loss of jagr and Carle two years ago far more than Briere and Bryz. Not keeping those two was easily Homers biggest misstep. Bigger than Bryz IMHO. Bryz himself wasn't a terrible experiment. It was always his contract that made the idea dumb and just wholly unsound. Only Vezinas and cups would have excused Bryz's salary and duration of contract and that's a big gamble that didn't pay off. To this day I can only assume homer still has a job because everyone knows snider forced him to sign Bryz and make a ridiculous offer.

Not signing jagr and Carle wasn't as splashy and got ignored by the suter, parise, weber controversies of that year, but it crippled that team.

Why Homer didn't call jagr and let him end up with the devils I'll never understand.

Razor I guess replaced Bryz and I suppose no one has replaced Briere. Maybe this off season? Can I show us something in a size Kesler? Ha ha.

 

I hated the signing of VLC and Streit - and not because they cannot play. The last position we needed to solidify was center. We have a logjam at that position, so the signing of VLC was unnecessary. Why not develop from within. And Gomer forgets that this is a hard salary cap league where every dollar matters. VLC's cap hit is painful!

Anyway, i digress.

I really like the team's physical toughness and resiliency. i am actually cautiously optimistic about the future, especially if Morin pans out.