fanaticV3.0

That's why they put people like Pronger and Timonen around him and you even noted he didn't respond well to it. I'm not into this blaming the management crap. That's not to say they can't have haven't made mistakes, but rather that it goes both ways. You want to blame them for giving him the keys to the car, that's fair, but it's also up to him and he does when give the keys. At first, he seemed just fine, but when things got just a little difficult he was pathetic. Instead of trying to right the ship he spent his time arguing with the meadia, complaining how mean they were to him, and brushing off guys like Pronger and Timonen. Whether the same thing happens to Giroux or not, I don't know. Right now, I say now, because he seems mentally tougher. He's also matured as a player much faster than Richards.

I remember thinking Hitchcock did it a lot, then Stevens came a long and he did it, and now Lavi. Is it like a thing now? Or have we just happened to have 3 guys who do it in a row?

I can see what your thinking, though if they don't score in the first 5 minutes of the first pre-season game, they'll be broken up. Why is it that we seem to have several coaches in a row now who juggle lines....like a lot?

Yet here we are saying how much need to hold onto youth and built the team around them. Ain't that somthin'? And I'm sorry, but scapegoating the organIzation for his shortcomings as a leader doesn't float with me. I agree they put him in that position too soon, but after that it's up to him to decided how to respond. He had a few good seasons (as a leader) where I was perfectly happy with him, but when it got just even a little hard, he whined like a baby. It didn't stop there either, when Pronger and Timonen spoke out (without directly naming anyone) he simply whined some more. He handled himself VERY poorly.

See, stuff like this is where your argument goes to ****. I admit I'd like to have Seidenberg back, but seriously, who gives a **** about Sbisa, Lupul, or Williams? These are not impact players. These are not players who would have helped this team win a Cup or who's current team won a Cup because of them. Simply stated that so-and-so happens to be a young players who is no longer here and won a Cup elsewhere and using that as the backbone of your argument is weak as hell. It's completely illogical, because you aren't even examining what that player did here, with is new team, etc. You're just stating that they're no longer here and won a Cup elsewhere. It's kind of a strawman.

It's a lot of youth on one line and youth that isn't really at a certain level yet (like maybe Giroux), but I can see the appeal of playing him with Vinny. I think it could benefit the both of them to be honest. I have wanted a bigger guy with Giroux for a while and a smaller, fast, skilled guy might benefit ole Vinny.

I think you're the only one who put Vinny and Giroux together. Interesting. You think that leaves enough scoring punch for the 2nd line, especially since you have Hartnell there too?

Richards and Carter were trading because "management believed" they weren't developing? Stop it. Just stop. First of all, both of their stats dropped drastically after they each had a breaktout year. Richards was 07-09 and Carter 08-09 (which was also another great year for Richards). You cannot deny Their play hasn't come close to their production from those years. There is not "believing" they regressed a little, it's a fact. It's in the numbers. That wasn't even my point though. If you are going to deny they had become a problem in the locker room, we have nothing to talk about. If you are so blinded by your opinoin you harp on any and every instance, regardless of the players performance or other circumstances, your opinion isn't worth the time it just took my to type this. Before you go getting all offended, I have to reiterate there are times I wish they were more patient with youth and even certain players I wish they held on to. But I can count on one hand the recent ones who actually turned into decent players to the point you actually regret trading them. You, you're just upset about all of them, regardless of what the player ends up doing when he leaves or any other circumstances surrounding the situation. You're too extreme. You're bothered by every young player we ever traded away.

The organIzation has focused a lot on youth in recent years. They tanked last year and in 06 or 07 they were the worst team in the league. Even in going to the Cup just a few years ago, they barely made it to the POs. All of these years and several leading up to them had a lot of young players on the team. Again, I have to reiterate I'm not against youth. I'm not in a rush to move any of our young guys. But I'm not anti-veteran either. We have seen what going all (mostly) young can result in. They were in over their heads last year. Same thing happened the year we handed the reigns to Carter, Richards, Upshall, Umberger in 06/07. You need both veterans and youth.

I'm not sure where him not being physical means he can't play D comes into play, I don't recall saying that. I also don't recall saying Streit could play D. So, you will have to excuse my confusion as to why you are interjecting those two points into the conversation, because I certainly didn't insinuate them.

He cost too much money and it absolutely sucks we lost another guy to concussions, but come on. They came to within in one game of a cup - closer than they have been in my whole lifetime - because of him. That team had no business in the cup. Their season was a nightmare, it literally took until the last day of the regular season to even make the POs, but he was steady for them that entire season. He played really well in his short time here. Plus, look at the bright side. Him being here kind of exposed some of the problems in the locker room. We already suspected they were there, but the entire frat boy mentality really had become a legitimate issue in the locker room. Pronger, Timonen, and some others pointed out guy snot trying as hard as they can and what not.

You're right, but he didn't play a second in the NHL for another team, so it's pretty much the same thing. He was a young player they acquired, gave the keys to the car, put pieces around him, and gave him plenty of time to grown. For what ever reasons? Are you for real? Are you really going to sit there and act all baffled as to why they had to go? Before they hit their prime? Richards and Carter had their best years here and have not duplicated that level since leaving. The only reason they have a Cup is because they were surrounded by better players on a better team and the pressure is off them. LA wins that cup with or without them. What about them? Bob has had one legitimately good year since leaving. You cannot take that single season and say, "Ok, well that's it. Huge mistake trading him away." There's simply not enough to work there with yet. If he continues that level of play, that sucks for us, one year is one year chief. He could tank or simply be average the rest of his career. JVR and Sbisa are the same exact players they were when they left. Neither was an impact player when here and neither is now. Could they be one day? Yeah, but you're just pulling young players names out of thin air and and saying the fact they are gone is proof of your argument (regardless of how they are playing). Seidenberg is a good player and I would love to have him on the team, but your argument is poop. You're just pulling names of players they traded away out of your ass, stating that they are gone, stating that it is a mistake, and aren't even taking into account what kind of player they are, their situation here, etc. And again, that's not to say they haven't rushed to judgement with some youth. There are a few players they drafted, traded for when they were very young, or signed as a FA I'd like to have back. But are there a ton of superstars or even impact players we have "lost out" on because we weren't patient enough with? Can you honestly say that? Off the top of my head, I'd like Sharp and Seidenberg back. Bob might be added to that list one day, but after one good year, I can't say we threw away the keys to the castle just yet. It's not just about simply having young players, it's about having good ones. You seem to think being young and drafted by the organization means we should hold onto them regardless of how they perform.

I disagree. Now, that's not to say I think they have always been patient and there aren't a few young players I wish we waited longer on, but I don't agree that overall they just throw away youth. Richards and Carter were here for 6 seasons. Gagne and Lindros longer than that. All drafted by the organization. All of these players were given plenty of time to develop. If you are going to throw Sharp, Williams, or Pitkanen in my face, I'm going to call BS on all 3. Unfair or not, Sharp and Williams were in Hitch's dog house. Sharp wasn't even given a chance and Williams - in addition to being in Hitch's dog house - was floundering here. Same for Pitkanen. There are some players who have to be traded sometimes. They are not going to work out in their current situation and the trade is why they do work out in their new situations. Would I like to have Sharp on the roster? Yes. But what I'm saying is that he was unfairly treated by his coach here and would have never blossomed had had stayed. Williams and Pitkanen, I could personally not care about. I don't regret trading them at all.

I would have loved to have kept Jagr. I would love to get St. Louis if it doesn't cost the farm. Carle, I can live without. I just don't have much interest in one-way defenseman. I can recognize what they're good at, but if you are a defenseman who can't play D, you can take a hike as far as I'm concerned.

Putting together lines has always been one of my favorite things to do. I like to think I not only know more than other fans, but the coaches too. It's fun to discuss who you think would work best together. Problem for me is, as I have mentioned on another thread, I didn't give much of a **** last year. I watched a little bit and kept up in the papers and on talk radio, but I hate shortened seasons and was turned off. Plus, when I did tune in, I often found myself saying, "Who the hell is that?" I'm not even sure who is under contract as far as some of the veterans go. Were Knuble and Gagne on 1-year deals? Are the Flyers supposed to be "done" with free agents? Do you put Vinny and Giroux together or do you split them up, put one with Voracek, the other with Simmonds, and fill in the gaps by throwing darts at a board? I can see wanting to split them up, but I feel like Giroux needs a higher caliber player to work with than just Simmonds or Voracek.

I'm not saying that we should specifically trade one or two of our young guys specifically for St. Louis, but I'd like to point out how well going young worked out for us this past year. The young guys looked completely overwhelmed and outmatched. They were kind of thrown to the wolves this year. Even our "leaders" were young. Giroux, who is still a kid, was supposed to lead a bunch of 2nd and 3rd year players? Come on. You need a balance of youth and experience (which is really all my point is).

The topic is dirty players, not most deserving recipients. You might not like the recipient, but you still have to separate that when judging the offenders actions. Who is on the receiving end is irrelevant. Domi ran from many of our fighters and then gets involved in a 2-on-1 with Adam Burt!?! A 2-on-1 is a ***** move no matter who is involved, but when it's a non-fighter, the level of pussification that takes is immeasurable.

You keep making this about Ulf. It's not about who the recipient is. We're discussing the offenders. The conversation isn't "who is the most deserving of a dirty hit" it's "who are some of the dirtiest guys around".

Suckerpunching someone in sports is a b!tch move. It's just a game. Play hard, but play like a man. It's up there with dirty stick work, kneeing, or other dirty **** that could really f-ck someone up. That's the kind of sh!t you should only if you think you are in legitimate danger. Like this one time when I was 15. This older guy was starting some sh!t with me. He grabbed me by the shirt, pins me against a wall, and was acting all threatening. He was like 4 years older than me, had some size on me, and was generally a "man" compared to me. So I put my head down as if I'm scared/embarrassed to look at him. He takes the bait and lets go of me, as if to say he won the pissing contest. The second he lets go and just starts to back up, but hasn't quite turned around, I hit him right in the mouth. He didn't see it coming at all. So, it turned him around, then I jump on his back and start punching him in the face before people broke it up.

If he had one incident I disagreed with, I could cut him some slack and give him a second chance. Chris Gratton - like Riley Cooper - supposedly said the N-word. Everyone slips up. It happens. But Domi has such a wrap sheet, I can't stand him. He ran from Brash, McCarthy (and double-teamed Adam Burt of all people in the same game), gets into a fight with a fan after he started it, sucker punches people. I find guys who do this kind of stuff not only to be cowardly, but odd. Who can actually kick someone's ass, but chooses not to (Brash and McCarthy) or to go the cheap route (Ulf)? That's just puzzling to me.

He kind of amazes me. I'm always skeptical of late bloomers. I always expect them to be a flash in the pan kind of player, but he's still producing at a high level, which most guys don't do at his age.

He's a little more than a jerk boss. He's a f-cking disgrace. Suckering punching people, running from real fighters (and hiding behind officials while doing it), double-teaming against a single opponent (huge ***** move), has literally done it all in the cheap/dirty department. As far as the thing with the fan goes, Domi started that when he started spraying water on fans. You don't ever pull that minor league crap. Defending yourself is one thing, but Domi started that entire situation. Hell, he was the only one who threw a punch. The fat ass fan fell into the box, his shirt was over his head and Domi starts teeing off on him. He's a b!tch on every level.

Domi's a *****. If you can - and he easily could have - beat someone's ass than do that. You want to send a message? Level him. Beat him in a fight. But when he did there was no better - and in fact much worse - than what Ulf actually did to him in that very game. He's one of those guys who got weird at the end of his career too, running from goons, fighting fans, just cowardly stuff.

Good for them. If they think he's a leader, they get whatever is coming to them. Dude's got talent, but is in no way, shape, or form a leader.