fanaticV3.0

Patrick Thoresen, the man who did indeed suffer from a busted nut.......

I remember the board I was posting on during that time, there were people who were in love with that guy, lol.

Williams is a complimentary player, but he is great at it. His career goal totals are down because of injury - which was a concern for the Flyers - but he did score 30 twice (including Carolina's Cup year). 

 

He had one injury year with the Flyers, two with the Canes and in the split season with the Canes/Kings played 44.

That said, he's played every game of the past three seasons.

 

He's right where he is now - a pretty consistent 20 goal scorer. 

 

Not sure he would have gotten my vote for Conn Smythe, though... But I can't really argue with the decision.

I agree he is a very good complimentary player. I agree with that completely. I think he's the kind of guy that is great on a team that's already solid, but is not someone you build around.

I think it's certainly possible injuries have hurt his numbers - anyone who has any talent is going to produce more the more they play - but it's not like he tears it up when he plays most of the season. He's only hit 70 points in year once (and I'm only looking at the years he played most of the season). I think he's just one of those guys who does better in a PO or tournament setting.

I'm guessing that it's probably not a great idea, from the Flyers perspective, to have a guy with Lecavalier's history making $4.5M as a 4th liner. It's probably pretty embarrassing for him, especially if he feels he's got more in the tank, and there's the question of whether or not he would be happy playing 10-12 minutes per night on the 4th line. 

 

I'm sure those are the kinds of conversations they've had with him/his agent, and it sounds like they're ok with moving him to a better situation for both parties. 

F-ck that sh!t. F-ck it from top-to-bottom. That's the same kind of mentality that runs guys like Desjardins and Timonen into the ground; both of whom I absolutely love as players, but were used as a #1 far too long. I like Timonen so much as a player I'm glad they signed his old ass for another year. I still think he's a decent player, especially with this defensive corps. But I'm a big believer in using players the right way and I don't think teams do that often enough. Just because a guy isn't what he used to be doesn't mean he is worthless; but it sure as sh!t doesn't mean you should play him like the #1 he used to be. It's moronic.

1. There's the reality of the situation. He's coming off of what is considered a disappointing season. Given that and his salary, if they can even move him, that's something of a minor miracle. If you can trade him then do it, I just don't see why anyone would be interested in him, so I think you have to play it like he's going to be in the line up next year.

2. Try and tell me that a line consisting of a combination Hall, Rinaldo, Rosehill, McGinn, and VanWhateverHisNameIs is better than having VLC in that mix. The whole notion that your 4th line has to consist of guys who "are muckers and gridners (which is a nice way of saying they don't contribute) is fundamentally flawed. You build the best team you can.

I got nothing against Justin Williams. Nothing against him at all.Of the young players we've traded away the last 10-15 years him and Sharp are easily the ones I have the least problem with as players and people. If I had a time machine and was able to undo a few trades, those would definitely be two of the top ones.

They are both perfect examples of why I couldn't stand Hitchcock. I really could not stand that man's approach to building a line up. If he didn't like you that was all she wrote.

I do have to point out though, 209 career goals really isn't very many for a guy his age. That's an average of 16 a year. And before you tell me none of that matters and that he elevates his game in the POs, his production in the PO is .68ppg. That's exactly .03 higher than his career avg of .65ppg during the regular season. Interesting stuff.

He'll he scored at like 4 times the pace on the 4th and make Akeson look good.

Why not roll a 4th line and give Some of the youth a chance to learn to score and check?

I also feel like he'll be less of a defensive liability at center for a full season rather than at a random wing of the moment.

This is of course a worst case scenario. Move him if you can!

 

I'm with you. Move him if you can, but if you're stuck with him put him on the 4th with a good character guy and a kid trying to prove himself. Hall and Akeson might make good line mates for him.

I hate the notion that you have to do something just because that's the way it's always been done. You don't have to have a 4th line with a bunch of nobodies. That's bullsh!t.

Makes me think of Jiri Dopita.

 

He did have a 4 goal game.

Or the kid that got his one nut blasted off, Ville Leino, or the countless other guys we get excited about who disappear as fast as they make a name for themselves.

I hope they get him.

Just remember it took Raffl most of the year to get comfortable and perform more consistently.

still, anything he can do to remove the temptation of making a bad trade or overpaying for another old fart "scoring" forward like VLC is all positive momentum.

 

I like Raffl, but he's still 100% unproven at this point. Plenty of guys come in and look good for a year and then fade like a fart in the wind.

Especially when you KNOW this coming year will be the goalie's fault.

Seriously. Does he not know the pattern? Only the even Star Trek movies are any good and it's the goalie's fault one  year, the coach's the next.

Spezza has one year at a 7 million dollar cap hit left on his deal. Looks like Turris is going to have to step up and prove he is a number one.

  Huge offseason for Ottawa. Second year in a row an icon wants out. Ryan and Anderson are UFA next year. Do they decide to attempt a retool on the fly or deal Spezza, Anderson and ryan for kids and try to properly rebuild? Tough times ahead.

He's not a #1 and if they expect him to be they're idiots. He has really just started to show signs of life. No better way to ruin that than to put him in the shoes of a position he's not capable of filling.

 

How do you feel about a captain requesting a trade?

 

 

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=454588

 

NEW YORK -- Jason Spezza has requested a trade, and Ottawa Senators general manager Bryan Murray says he'll try to make that happen.

 

"I don't want to trade the guy, really, and I know I won't get the value, in all likelihood that I should get for him," Murray said Wednesday after the NHL general managers meeting. "But I think that Jason feels maybe there's a change that he would like to have happen, and if that's the case we'll try to do what we can."

 

Spezza, who replaced Daniel Alfredsson as Ottawa's captain, has one year left on his contract at a salary of US$4 million and cap hit of $7 million. The 30-year-old centre has a modified no-trade clause that allows him to submit a list of 10 teams he would not accept a trade to.

 

Murray said that a few teams have already asked about Spezza, even though Wednesday's meeting was too busy to advance many talks. He expects trade chatter to pick up in the next few weeks leading up to the draft, which runs June 27 and 28 in Philadelphia.

 

If the Senators do trade Spezza as has been speculated for some time, it would likely not be for just prospects and/or draft picks.

 

"Obviously I'd like to win a hockey game next year, so getting a player back that can play in the league, that has played in the league, would be important," Murray said.

 

Spezza led all Senators forwards in scoring last season with 23 goals and 43 assists. In 686 career NHL games, the native of Mississauga, Ont., has 687 points.

 

Ottawa went 37-31-14 and finished five points out of a playoff spot this season.

 

Him being a captain doesn't affect me either way. I think anyone is allowed to request a trade. Being a captain doesn't bind him to the team imo.

As far as him as a player, it's easy to call him a disappointment because he didn't save the franchise or anything, but frankly I was shocked to see that he had 687 points in 686 games. If he ends up on a team that uses him as a 2nd line center that could benefit both him and the team. If he is traded for by someone who thinks he's going to come in and own ****, both he and the team are in trouble.

Your comments lead me to suspect you're not watching these games.

He's not playing like a guy on a hot streak he's playing like someone seeing the ice better than anyone else out there.

Honestly. He's not passing like this, or skating as smoothly as this, but the way he seems to be seeing the ice and the confidence with which he is slaking reminds me of Forsberg.

He's not a player on a hot streak, he's "seeing the matrix" right now. It's 100% all about confidence IMHO as well.

As far as his production regressing, don't you think that has more to do with him buying into a system than it is about him playing worse? Many if the Kings numbers are down over that same stretch.

Yet they have one cup, a conf finals appearance and a 3 game lead in a 2nd cup finals to show for it.

I mocked Yzerman for taking Carter for the Olympics, but obviously I was wrong. The guy's game has just developed and arrived. Winning isn't about one guy having numbers. It's about your team having more goals than the other team.

If we care about winning, regression is the ansolute last thing Carter has done.

 

Carter's PPG since leaving:

13-14: .69

12-13: .69

11-12: .59 as a King and .64 as a Blue Jacket

13-14 PO: .96

This is the very definition of a hot streak. If he maintains a level of player comparable to what he is now (or something relatively close) that is when we get talk about him getting better vs. being on another tear.

I guess you're referring to giving Berube another year???

 

I'm ok with that five him a full offseason and training camp to game plan and train his players as to what he expects.

 

He has already said he has informed everyone to come to came already in shape not expecting to work them selves into shape....so i support this and will evaluate as the season goes along.

 

As far as Phoneix goes i don't really care what happens to them but they need to be moved to a city that supports them. 

How generous of you!

I don't understand why you are already putting another coach on the hot seat, especially after a pretty good year and such a short period of time.

 

Good news, folks! Vinny is in play, according to Darren Dreger. 

 

http://www.thescore.com/news/518251

 

The Vincent Lecavalier era in Philadelphia might be short-lived, according to a report from TSN's Darren Dreger. 

 

Lecavalier was signed by the Philadelphia Flyers after the Tampa Bay Lightning used a compliance buyout on his long-term contract last summer, but he often struggled in his first season on Broad Street. Though the former Lightning star managed 20 goals, he was a liability at even-strength and found himself demoted to a fourth-line role for the postseason. 

 

Considering Lecavalier's atrophying two-way effectiveness and his sizable cap-hit, it's not exactly a huge surprise the Flyers have interest in trading the 34-year-old center. "The word on the street is that, yes, Vincent Lecavalier most definitely is in play," TSN's Darren Dreger said during a segment of Insider Trading on "Sportscentre" Wednesday night. 

 

Any deal involving Lecavalier is likely to prove complicated. The aging star is on a contract that carries a $4.5 million cap-hit through the 2017-18 season, a hefty figure that could necessitate a retained salary transaction. Also Lecavalier has a full no-movement clause per capgeek.com, so he'll have the right to hit send on any potential deal.

 

The Flyers have already began working with Lecavalier's camp to work out a resolution to this issue, Dreger reported. "[Lecavalier's] agent has already talked to [Flyers GM] Ron Hextall about the possibility of moving Vincent Lecavalier," Dreger said, adding that at the moment there's no "list" of potential destinations where Lecavalier would agree to be traded to.

 

I'll believe it when I see it. I saw someone post this article on Facebook the other day and my first thought is who is going to take him? If you can move him, by all means do it, but I just don't see a market for this guy.

If you are stuck with him, I'm completely on board with King Knut's idea of having him center the fourth line. I'm sick of fourth lines that are a waste of space. Do some creative or productive with that spot. You don't have to have guys that can't play on the fourth. Don't give me that "energy' crap either, that's just code for "We've got nothing better."

Oooh, I love best players not in the NHL.

http://fansided.com/2014/06/08/nhl-rumors-boston-bruins-active-trade-market/#!W0N6S

This isn't the original article I saw, but it essentially says the same thing. I've seen it a lot recently and that surprises me, because I still think they are the best team in the East. I don't think they need a lot of work, so I'm curious to see what they do (and if it hurts them).

@King Knut

You mean the common perceptions of what he actually was/wasn't doing three years ago in Philly, which was being a good but not great player? That was three years, not 3 months ago, right? Yes, he's become in LA what he wasn't here, a consistent and clutch performer, does the chiding of his detractors from his Philly days ever end. **** gets old after the 473rd time. People talk like he was doing this all along but we fools just couldn't see it. Congratulations to him, hope he continues to have success. Even though it means we'll have to continue suffereing revisionist historians who now supposedly knew it all along.

You don't even have to go back three years. Just look at his regular season numbers in LA. 50 points this past season. Nothing spectacular about that at all.

His success bothers me less than these folk. I could very easily come up with a list of things that bother me  about how this organIzation does business, but this type of fan just likes to pile on. There's no worse logic than "well he's winning now, so it was a bad trade."

That is exactly who he is. He has INCREDIBLE talent. Big guy, skates beautifully, great hands and good hockey sense. With Maximum effort, he could be the best player in the league.

 

Once in awhile, he decides to take over a game, and it is beautiful to watch. Dominant. The problem is, it happens rarely. Very rarely.

I agree with you, but I will say I've always wondered what would happen to him if he was with a better organization. Like one that was legitimately successful, at least recently. If Carter is killing it in LA right now, it makes me wonder what Nash would do in a similar situation.

The problem is, the Top 5 teams in the west would have done this to anyone but Boston in the east. West teams are just better in general and it is not even close. Boston of course ran into their Kryptonite.

The West is better, I definitely agree there, but I don't think everyone in the top 5 is capable of this kind of dominance. I'd reserve that for probably just Chicago and LA. Nor do I think Boston is the only team that can compete with the West. I'm not gonna look through every team's record during the regular season, but looking real quick at Pitts season, they had a winning record against the West. Tampa probably at one point, but they weren't playing at the same level of play all year.

The Rangers are totally outclassed though. They don't even belong in the Cup imo. Total fluke if you ask me.

1)

2013-2014: Phoenix 89 pts / Ottawa 88 points

2012-2013: Phoenix 51 pts / Ottawa 56 points

2011-2012: Phoenix 97 pts / Ottawa 92 points

2010-2011: Phoenix 99 pts / Ottawa 74 points

2009-2010: Phoenix 107 pts / Ottawa 94 points

 

Last 5 season totals: Phoenix 443 pts / Ottawa 404 pts

 

I exaggerated the wins. My bad. The point being that you call Phoenix "blows" when in reality they are / have been competitive for a while. I get it is you don't like Ownership / management. I also get it if you don't think Hockey should be in the desert. But aside from all those detriments, the team itself is quite good (and better than ottawa the last 5 seasons.

 

 

 

 

Not for nothing, but Hockey Futures has Phoenix team ranking at #12. Ottawa is ranked #19. 

 

 

 

 

Turris played in all 48 games last season. That is a full season too. Its great that he had a break out year. My point is is woo hoo. His 6th season in the league and he finally cracked the 20 goal marker. Lets have a party. 

 

You site PPG: 

 

1) Kyle Turrius- Regular season> 316 gp, 162 pts> .5 ppg

                          Playoffs> 21 gp, 15pts> .7 ppg

 

2) JVR- Regular season> 324 gp, 192 pts> .59 ppg

             Playoffs> 46 gp, 22 pts> .47 ppg

 

Turris certainly has progressed, you can't deny that when prior to this season his highest goal production was 12 goals. The point being (coming full circle) is that Turris / JVR are pretty even production wise. I will give credence to Turris because he is a center (a more difficult position than Wing). I will aslo acknowledge that he is a better two-way player. Value wise, I think they are equal when all things are put into play. Nothing more, nothing less. The Flyers did not need a center- thus got JVR. While Phoenix may have mishandled Turris, I can't see the Flyers doing any better. The fans would have been clamoring for Turris to play on the big club and it would have ended with equal disastrous results and probably worse because the fan base would have chewed Turris up and spit him out alive. 

I have nothing against hockey in the desert at all. It's got nothing to do with liking or disliking something or someone. Hell, I actually used to like Phoenix for several years, but that's irrelevant. The organization's impact on the sport is practically non-existent. They are not a legitimate threat for the Cup, even when they do make the PO. 

And in relations to this conversation, I'll take Ottawa's future over Phoenix's any day. Not only is Ottawa had more organizational success, they've got a better roster, at least for the next few years. Give me Ottawa's top 5 over Phoenix's any day of the week. Ottawa's top 5 is younger and more productive.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/teams/ott/stats/

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/teams/pho/stats/

Well remember they did get to the Western Conference Finals in 2012 verse the Kings when they won their first Cup.

 

Not to shabby since they lost i think 4 games to one but that isn't to bad considering they never utilize their full cap potential.

 

I think they have made the playoffs every year except last year that Tippett has been there as a coach.

 

But yes that doesn't really mean they don't suck. Just point it out. Tippett is the guy i wanted the Flyers to hire as coach. But i'll give Berube one more year.

LOL, are you serious?

But back to Phoenix, even you said yourself it doesn't mean they don't suck. Even bad organizations make the POs once and a while. Phoenix is, for the most part, and organization that has no real impact on the sport.

I completely agree that the topic is beaten to death, but I do think that a lot of the revisionist history is the "line killer" line that is usually dredged up and the "wasn't going to develop here" mantra.

 

Again, for the record, I agreed with the trades then and agree with them now. But the fundamental reason they got a first round pick (Sean Couturier) and a first line player (Voracek) for Crater was that he was - and is - a well developed NHL player. You have said on other threads that we should see if a player has multiple 30/60 seasons before deciding he is a "great" player.

 

Crater had three in a row for the Flyers including a 46/84. How much more "development" did we need to see?

 

Two of those seasons he was +23 and +27.with the "down" being a +2 in 2010 when all this floating, leaderless, unmotivated kid that the Flyers had tapped with an Assistant Captain label, groomed to be part of the team long term and would sign to a nine-year contract did was score five goals in 12 games, coming back to play after missing 10 games with a broken foot... He scored the Conference Final winning goal against the Habs and added the empty netter to ice the game.

 

No, that does mean it was a bad trade. But it also doesn't mean that it "couldn't have happened here." 

 

It almost did.

 

 

Player had developed. If anything, I'd say the Flyers traded him then because his value would never be higher.

 

And it likely never will be.

Funny enough, he hasn't had 30/60 in a single season (let alone more than one in a row) since leaving. If he had, we're not having this conversation.

I don't feel the least bit guilty, wrong, or overzealous in saying it wasn't going to happen here with them at the helm. It's not presumptuous, it's astute. If someone can look at their time here and is still all "We don't know what would have happened", I've got a wonderful investment opportunity for you. All you have to do is mail your life savings to my friend in Nigeria. He's a prince, so you can trust him.

^^THIS^^

 

Carter is playing well and I will not downplay is game of late.  The fact of the matter is Carter has a great Team around him too and he is not the #1/#2 cornerstone player in LA as he was expected to be in Philly.   I have no problem w/ debating past trades and what not but this topic has been beat to death... and then beat some more.

Me neither. I have no problem admitting he's playing very well right now. But anyone anointing him anything - other than a guy on a hot streak - is an idiot. Scott Hartnell had more points than Carter did this past season. Hell Carter's regular season numbers since leaving here are worse than his last 3 seasons here. He's regressed. A hot streak is nothing more than a hot streak until that player can play at a higher level longer than the length of a tournament.

This series reminds me of the year the Caps went to the Cup against the Red Wings.  You know they aren't going to win, shouldn't even be there in the first place, and you get a crap Cup as a result.

Thank you!  Well said...

 

 

 

 

Thank you too and well said...

 

I think we need to get the mods around the table to change the HF Bilaws that Jeff Carter is a distant memory of the Flyers, and thus, posters must refrain from future JC threads.

 

I am wating for this post to appear one of these days:  "Is Jeff Carter a better leader and player than Giroux?"

I hate revisionist history when it comes to former players. Player X is playing well now, therefore it was a bad trade. What moronic logic that is. It ignores so much all for the sake of right now. JVR had more points than Carter this past regular season for Christ's sake, but Carter is a great player all of a sudden because of this year's PO? Please. If he wasn't on a Cup contending team, we wouldn't even be talking about him.

Do you mean like Eric Lindros?? 

 

Turris was never expected to be a savior. He was expected to be a good to a really good player (same as JVR). Not a Gretzky, Lemieux etc. 

 

 

 

 

Huh? You mean how "paid professionals" (whomever they may be) can expect to draft and offer a person millions of dollars to play a sport that said player loves and have expectations??? WTF. This is not candy land. 

 

 

 

 

He has been in Ottawa for three years now. Injuries / lock prior to this year and he has done nothing. You cite "first full season", I cough and say bs. He played in all games last season and did nothing. He played three quarters of a season two years ago and did nothing. 

 

 

 

 

Man you have a very skewed perception. The last three years, Phoenix has nearly 30 more wins than Ottawa. Two seasons nearly 100 points (which Ottawa has not sniffed in......well a long time). 

 

I mean, we really should flip the cards and say that almost always Ottawa is a lost cause, because if Phoenix is a lost cause playing in the west and perhaps the toughest division in the league and posting 90 - 100 point seasons, then certainly Ottawa must be a mammoth lost cause. 

 

Do your homework before spouting off. 

No, not like Eric Lindros at all. Unlike Turris, Lindros had the tools to shoulder that load that was placed on his shoulders.

Phoenix blows. They are never a contender even on the rare occasion they do make the PO. They are a third rate organization. They will never do anything of merit. They cannot compete with other teams around the league and Ottawa is without a doubt a better place to lay than the desert. 30 more wins than Ottawa in the last 3 years? WOW, there's an impressive stat. They should hang a banner in the rafters for that. Even their current roster sucks despite their "30 more points than Ottawa in the last 3 years", lol. As bad as Ottawa is right now, they've got some youth and some good youth at that; something Phoenix does not and never has. They're a waste of an organization.

Yes, Turris has just played his first full season with his "new" team. That is a fact regardless of how much you don't care for it. And guess what? His ppg was a career high this year, haha! Don't talk to me about homework when you ignore his progress, which is proven in the stats, and you bring this weak 30 more wins in the last 3 years crap to the table.