Holland

[yave1964]

In a general sense - Why?

 

 

Do you think it is because of league and International rules regarding how long a NHL franchise can hold onto it's European players?  Detroit used to be able to hang on to it's prospects for years and years before they came to play in the NHL.

 

Or other team scouts are doing a better job of researching the European players?  Thus more competition for the better players.

 

Or Detroit's scouting team has changed?

 

Something else?

  Holland has done nothing to replace Lidstrom, not that you ever really replace a player like him, but he has added nothing in going on three years to the defense. Nothing.

 

  His signing of free agents have been wretched. Guys like Tootoo, Samuelsson, Cleary, Weiss, ect.... have proven he no longer can sign the right players.

 

  He swung and missed on every single qualified free agent blue liner this year. Every one. Then somehow he turned to Quincey. And even gave him a raise.

 

  This club is exactly where the Flames were a few years ago, Kipper getting old, Iginlia and Bouwmeester and the rest nearing the end, the Flames sat on their laurels for a few years and eventually imploded. We have a ton of young forwards and Dekeyser and Smith, so the cupboard is not exactly empty but Datsyuk and Zetterberg are in their mid thirties and by the time the kids develop they will likely be gone or on their way out. Essentially the talent we have does not mesh.

 

  Two of the brilliant young front office minds in the game, Jim Nill (Dallas) and Steve Yzerman (Tampa) have left the organization, tired of waiting on Holland to take the gold watch and move on. Tampa and Dallas are unarguably two of the up and coming organizations in the game.

 

  Essentially it is not anything that Holland has done, it is everything. Kids such as Nyquist and Tatar and Jurco came from the scouting department ran by Nill, he has moved on. Do not be surprised to see Dallas start developing European kids like the Wings always have. If we lose chief European scout Andersson we are in big trouble.

  So yeah, we make the playoffs every year, but in the last five we haven't made it past the second round. Maybe I am a bit spoiled by all of the success, but I expect more. No, I don't expect us to get every free agent but my God, we need a right handed shot on the blue line who can run a power play. We have needed it for three years since Rafalski decided his body couldn't handle it any more and surprised the Wings by retiring. Three years, absolutely nothing.I am not saying we should have Suter and Weber and Subban, how about a Mike Green or a big Buff, trade a kid forward and get it done. The free agents wouldn't come, make a damn trade. I really cannot remember the last Wings trade of any significance. It is time to step up and do it. I do not believe Holland can run the organization anymore and a change is needed, the problem is the two guys who should have been fighting for his job may be fighting each other in the Stanley Cup finals this year.

[WingNut722]

  Holland has done nothing to replace Lidstrom, not that you ever really replace a player like him, but he has added nothing in going on three years to the defense. Nothing.

 

  His signing of free agents have been wretched. Guys like Tootoo, Samuelsson, Cleary, Weiss, ect.... have proven he no longer can sign the right players.

 

  He swung and missed on every single qualified free agent blue liner this year. Every one. Then somehow he turned to Quincey. And even gave him a raise.

 

 

I wouldn't judge his free agent eye too harshly.  He made pitches to every hot defensemen this year which were equal or better than the offers those players eventually accepted elsewhere.  He made offers to both Suter and Parise as well (offhand I can't remember how those offers stacked up) but they still selected Minnesota.  The speculation tends to indicate that players are selecting teams based on more than just the quality of hockey.  They're looking to be close to family, their old hometowns, former teammates (NHL, college, otherwise)...all these intangibles.  It's one thing to try to replace Lidstrom and Rafalski, but in order to supersede those intangibles, Holland may very well have to significantly overpay, which is something he's too sensible to do.  Detroit used to be "THE" place to play hockey, and in those days, you could tell your wife/kids/mom/dad/dog/teammates/goldfish: "Yeah I'll be a thousand miles away, but I'll be playing for the Red Wings!"  

 

Those days are no more...

[yave1964]

I wouldn't judge his free agent eye too harshly.  He made pitches to every hot defensemen this year which were equal or better than the offers those players eventually accepted elsewhere.  He made offers to both Suter and Parise as well (offhand I can't remember how those offers stacked up) but they still selected Minnesota.  The speculation tends to indicate that players are selecting teams based on more than just the quality of hockey.  They're looking to be close to family, their old hometowns, former teammates (NHL, college, otherwise)...all these intangibles.  It's one thing to try to replace Lidstrom and Rafalski, but in order to supersede those intangibles, Holland may very well have to significantly overpay, which is something he's too sensible to do.  Detroit used to be "THE" place to play hockey, and in those days, you could tell your wife/kids/mom/dad/dog/teammates/goldfish: "Yeah I'll be a thousand miles away, but I'll be playing for the Red Wings!"  

 

Those days are no more...

Okay how about his trades then or lack thereof?

 

Six weeks of Legwand for solid prospect Jarnkrok and a 2nd round pick. Yuck

 

Brad Stuart to the Sharks for a 6th rounder. Fair deal, helping Stu out.

 

Kyle Quincey for a first. Ahem

 

Going all the way back to 2007 that is it, other than the add or drop of a Huskins or Commodore for a 7th rounder. That is absolutely it. The Stuart deal was a wash, helping him out, we got fleeced in the other two.

 

  And lets look at who we didn't deal, Happy Hudler and Val Filpulla were gone like a cool breeze after their contracts, Hudler signed with Calgary and Filpula with Tampa, if you know you are not resigning them and they do not fit your plans, get something for them. Maybe trade Val at the deadline a few years ago rather than let him walk, add a Wideman or someone like him.

 

  And speaking of Commodore, he was an UFA the same offseason as Souray, we could have had either, we chose Commodore. Souray had a solid season with Dallas then Anaheim before his injury.

  So yeah, I am sick as hell of Holland, I am sure he knows more than I do, but I also think the majority of GM's in the game today have passed him by and a wonderful Hockey mind is now way past his prime and needs to go. He doesn't trade, 3 in 8 years, his free agent signees are wretched, his misses are glaring, key players like Hossa, Hudler and Filpulla get away for nothing. He chose Franzen over Hossa when the two of them were free agents. I cannot think of anything for him to hang his hat on except for a bunch of recent first or second round knockouts.

[Old School Hockey]

Okay how about his trades then or lack thereof?

 

Six weeks of Legwand for solid prospect Jarnkrok and a 2nd round pick. Yuck

 

Brad Stuart to the Sharks for a 6th rounder. Fair deal, helping Stu out.

 

Kyle Quincey for a first. Ahem

 

Going all the way back to 2007 that is it, other than the add or drop of a Huskins or Commodore for a 7th rounder. That is absolutely it. The Stuart deal was a wash, helping him out, we got fleeced in the other two.

 

  And lets look at who we didn't deal, Happy Hudler and Val Filpulla were gone like a cool breeze after their contracts, Hudler signed with Calgary and Filpula with Tampa, if you know you are not resigning them and they do not fit your plans, get something for them. Maybe trade Val at the deadline a few years ago rather than let him walk, add a Wideman or someone like him.

 

  And speaking of Commodore, he was an UFA the same offseason as Souray, we could have had either, we chose Commodore. Souray had a solid season with Dallas then Anaheim before his injury.

  So yeah, I am sick as hell of Holland, I am sure he knows more than I do, but I also think the majority of GM's in the game today have passed him by and a wonderful Hockey mind is now way past his prime and needs to go. He doesn't trade, 3 in 8 years, his free agent signees are wretched, his misses are glaring, key players like Hossa, Hudler and Filpulla get away for nothing. He chose Franzen over Hossa when the two of them were free agents. I cannot think of anything for him to hang his hat on except for a bunch of recent first or second round knockouts.

2008 were for the most part all Bowman leftovers. Remembering of course Bowman still the man until he left for Chicago. Holland gets very little praise for 2008.

[Old School Hockey]

Here it is!

"Had the odd call, but for the most part it's slowed down," Holland said. "It goes slow now for July and August. In past years once (top) free agents are off the market and money is spent things get slow."

"I explored trades through June, couldn't find a fit," Holland said. "Now I sense a quiet three, four, five weeks. In the meantime I'll reach out to some of those (GMs)"

I'm so tired of his "couldn't find a fit"!

[yave1964]

Here it is!

"Had the odd call, but for the most part it's slowed down," Holland said. "It goes slow now for July and August. In past years once (top) free agents are off the market and money is spent things get slow."

"I explored trades through June, couldn't find a fit," Holland said. "Now I sense a quiet three, four, five weeks. In the meantime I'll reach out to some of those (GMs)"

I'm so tired of his "couldn't find a fit"!

Like I said, waiting on him to retire, we lost Nill who stole Seguin from the Bruins and Yzerman who stole Bishop among others. But Holland cannot find a fit. Disgusting.

[jammer2]

@yave1964  I admit his UFA signings have been putrid. D don't see how Jim Nill gets all credit for drafting those kids. Inevitably, Holland makes the call, Nill just recommended the kids. You guys are just way to harsh on Holland. He has assembled an awesome stable of young talent. He has assured the Wings will be in the running for the cup well after Datsuyk and Zetts hang up the skates.

 

 Pretty sure Holland had to give Quincey a raise, I think the rule is a 10% raise from last years salary. If the Wings let Kenny go, he would be employed within 24 hours.

[yave1964]

@yave1964  I admit his UFA signings have been putrid. D don't see how Jim Nill gets all credit for drafting those kids. Inevitably, Holland makes the call, Nill just recommended the kids. You guys are just way to harsh on Holland. He has assembled an awesome stable of young talent. He has assured the Wings will be in the running for the cup well after Datsuyk and Zetts hang up the skates.

 

 Pretty sure Holland had to give Quincey a raise, I think the rule is a 10% raise from last years salary. If the Wings let Kenny go, he would be employed within 24 hours.

Holland had his day, hell you might even convince me to see the way for considering him as a HOFer in the builder/executive category but this past five plus years he has slept through instead of doing his job.

  I disagree that we needed Quincey back. He was bad to average the last several years, bottom pairing at best. No power play skills, no real upside. Yes, I know we whiffed on all of the big boys but instead of 4.25 million on Quincey, how about 2 million on Jovanovski who can at least still run a power play? Quincey at 4.25 million is ridiculously overpaid for a bottom pair d-man. Cleary, a commitment was made to the man, loyalty does count, I get that. I hate seeing him back but I understand the reasoning.

  If he trades for Mike Green or big Buff all will be forgiven.

[jammer2]

@yave1964  I never once said he should have brought Quincey back, it was a really bad move. I just think he was forced into giving him a raise with that 10% thingy (not even sure I"m right about that).

[yave1964]

@yave1964  I never once said he should have brought Quincey back, it was a really bad move. I just think he was forced into giving him a raise with that 10% thingy (not even sure I"m right about that).

my apology. I just think of a four million dollar a year sixth d-man and cringe.

 

  I know I am hard on Holland, as a Wings fan we have been spoiled, but how long can the man rest on his laurels?

 I think he is the Anti-Holmgren. Homer traded, signed, turned over half his roster every other year, treated it like a fantasy team. Holland sits still. Somewhere in the middle is the perfect GM, maybe a Stan Bowman type. But given my choice between a Holland who holds onto a player three or four years past their use by date, or a Holmgren who trades and trades and trades, give me the later every time. I know you need a little cohesion but their is a big difference between cohesion and stagnant which is where the Wings are now. Sorry about misreading your post, to quote that moron from Texas Rick Perry, oops.

[jammer2]

@yave1964  Ha ha....no problem bro. If can sympathize, it must be a tad maddening to have an overly inactive GM, when the solutions seem right out there for the taking. I don't now if Big Buff fits the Wings scheme, but I can see a big trade coming down the pipeline. If they deal Nyqvist to get the job done, Holland should be fired on the spot.....that kid just might be a superstar.

[Old School Hockey]

@yave1964  I admit his UFA signings have been putrid. D don't see how Jim Nill gets all credit for drafting those kids. Inevitably, Holland makes the call, Nill just recommended the kids. You guys are just way to harsh on Holland. He has assembled an awesome stable of young talent. He has assured the Wings will be in the running for the cup well after Datsuyk and Zetts hang up the skates.

 

 Pretty sure Holland had to give Quincey a raise, I think the rule is a 10% raise from last years salary. If the Wings let Kenny go, he would be employed within 24 hours.

Both Zetterberg and Datsyuk were Bowman guys! Holland gets ZERO credit for them. But he did resign Cleary, Franzen (at the expense of Hossa), Huskins, Quincey, Weiss, Modano, Tootoo, Legwand and the list goes on.

Simply put he can't attract top notch talent.

[yave1964]

Okay, the case for Kenny Holland

 

 He was drafted by the Leafs but soon was a member of the Wings organization as a goalie, and actually played 3 games for the Wings. He hung around after retiring, as one of Jimmy Devellano's right hand men, he was a behind the scenes guy who was in charge of scouting, bringing in talent such as Sergei Federov, Nick Lidstrom, Marty Lapointe and essentially the guys who made up the nineties powerhouse.

 

  When Jimmy D retired following the 1997 cup win, Holland took over and served as the GM of the 1998, 2002, and 2008 Stanley cup winning teams. During his tenure his team has never once failed to make the playoffs. He, as a protégé of the great Devellano knows how to surround himself with the best and the brightest minds without fear of them taking his job. Some guys in his position would never in a million years dream of having guys like Nill, Yzerman, Paul McLean, Todd McClellan surrounding him. Many others would never have the guts to allow a guy like Babs as the head coach out of fear that his coach might set his sight upon his job.

  In short, Holland has been in the organization since 1983-84, for 30 years he has given his heart and soul to the team and the second best era of the teams history next to the Gordie Howe early fifties dynasty has occurred under his watch.

 

   Some fans, such as myself, are spoiled and want a cup every year. I grew up with the Dead Things of the seventies and never wavered in my love and devotion to the team. This run of the Wings is near an end, like a child of the depression era who lives in fear of becoming poor again, I live in fear of the Wings becoming bad again, though truth be told there is no better drafter in the Wings history and possibly any teams history for this long than Holland. The cupboard, both at forward and to a slightly lesser extent even at the blue line is full, sometimes I feel like chicken little worrying about the sky falling. He has won, surrounded himself with the best and the brightest without fear or favor, and although he drives me nuts with his conservative nature unlike a lot of clubs we are not good one year and horrid the next. They seem to have retooled on the fly, it is a damn shame we swung and missed on the free agent d-men but from what I read he offered more than several of them received elsewhere, including Boyle and Erhoff, both of my choices to fill the point. He was voted as the second best executive of the decade for the decade just past, and was 5th in the previous as well, this is not just Hockey but all sports.

  So yeah, I still think Holland should hang it up and I was hoping Nill would hang in there long enough to take the helm, the fact is he learned from the best in Holland. I am not going to retract any previous statements but will wait it out, he is one hell of an executive and I hope he makes the deal we need for a d-man. He wont make the wrong deal just to make a trade.

[Old School Hockey]

Okay, the case for Kenny Holland

 

 He was drafted by the Leafs but soon was a member of the Wings organization as a goalie, and actually played 3 games for the Wings. He hung around after retiring, as one of Jimmy Devellano's right hand men, he was a behind the scenes guy who was in charge of scouting, bringing in talent such as Sergei Federov, Nick Lidstrom, Marty Lapointe and essentially the guys who made up the nineties powerhouse.

 

  When Jimmy D retired following the 1997 cup win, Holland took over and served as the GM of the 1998, 2002, and 2008 Stanley cup winning teams. During his tenure his team has never once failed to make the playoffs. He, as a protégé of the great Devellano knows how to surround himself with the best and the brightest minds without fear of them taking his job. Some guys in his position would never in a million years dream of having guys like Nill, Yzerman, Paul McLean, Todd McClellan surrounding him. Many others would never have the guts to allow a guy like Babs as the head coach out of fear that his coach might set his sight upon his job.

  In short, Holland has been in the organization since 1983-84, for 30 years he has given his heart and soul to the team and the second best era of the teams history next to the Gordie Howe early fifties dynasty has occurred under his watch.

 

   Some fans, such as myself, are spoiled and want a cup every year. I grew up with the Dead Things of the seventies and never wavered in my love and devotion to the team. This run of the Wings is near an end, like a child of the depression era who lives in fear of becoming poor again, I live in fear of the Wings becoming bad again, though truth be told there is no better drafter in the Wings history and possibly any teams history for this long than Holland. The cupboard, both at forward and to a slightly lesser extent even at the blue line is full, sometimes I feel like chicken little worrying about the sky falling. He has won, surrounded himself with the best and the brightest without fear or favor, and although he drives me nuts with his conservative nature unlike a lot of clubs we are not good one year and horrid the next. They seem to have retooled on the fly, it is a damn shame we swung and missed on the free agent d-men but from what I read he offered more than several of them received elsewhere, including Boyle and Erhoff, both of my choices to fill the point. He was voted as the second best executive of the decade for the decade just past, and was 5th in the previous as well, this is not just Hockey but all sports.

  So yeah, I still think Holland should hang it up and I was hoping Nill would hang in there long enough to take the helm, the fact is he learned from the best in Holland. I am not going to retract any previous statements but will wait it out, he is one hell of an executive and I hope he makes the deal we need for a d-man. He wont make the wrong deal just to make a trade.

Correct me I'm wrong but prior to the 2002-2003 season didn't Bowman have control of player personnel?

[yave1964]

Correct me I'm wrong but prior to the 2002-2003 season didn't Bowman have control of player personnel?

No, Bowman never ever had control of personnel. It was a power struggle between Bowman and Holland, after Devellano retired, both wanted control, Scotty kept threatening to retire year in year out but Holland stayed calm and continued to run the organization. I have two books, brilliantly written in the era, Bowman was and is the greatest coach of all time, but he, even in his own autobiography comes across as rather childish in his failed power play to take over control of every aspect of the team. A great coach, a brilliant mind, but Holland ran the club and brought in Hull, Robitaille and Haske, dealing Kozlov and allowing Lapointe and Osgood to move on to make it work. They had a difficult relationship but Holland ran the front office and was in charge of all personnel decisions. 

[Old School Hockey]

No, Bowman never ever had control of personnel. It was a power struggle between Bowman and Holland, after Devellano retired, both wanted control, Scotty kept threatening to retire year in year out but Holland stayed calm and continued to run the organization. I have two books, brilliantly written in the era, Bowman was and is the greatest coach of all time, but he, even in his own autobiography comes across as rather childish in his failed power play to take over control of every aspect of the team. A great coach, a brilliant mind, but Holland ran the club and brought in Hull, Robitaille and Haske, dealing Kozlov and allowing Lapointe and Osgood to move on to make it work. They had a difficult relationship but Holland ran the front office and was in charge of all personnel decisions.

Not trying to get into pissing contest with you but!

Detroit Red Wings coach Scotty Bowman will take on additional duties as director of player personnel, team owner Mike Ilitch said Friday. "This is a departure from the traditional title of general manager," Ilitch said. "Scotty's focus will be specifically on the NHL level, such as all trades and signings involving the Red Wings." Ilitch this week had promoted Ken Holland to assistant general manager. Holland will oversee pro and amateur scouting and the annual entry draft.

[yave1964]

Not trying to get into pissing contest with you but!

Detroit Red Wings coach Scotty Bowman will take on additional duties as director of player personnel, team owner Mike Ilitch said Friday. "This is a departure from the traditional title of general manager," Ilitch said. "Scotty's focus will be specifically on the NHL level, such as all trades and signings involving the Red Wings." Ilitch this week had promoted Ken Holland to assistant general manager. Holland will oversee pro and amateur scouting and the annual entry draft.

 Two fascinating books, Bowman, a life in Hockey by Douglas Hunter and Hockey Gods the inside story of the Red Wings Hall of Fame team by Nicholas Cotsonika go into detail about the power struggle between Bowman and Holland which Holland won hands down. Bowman tried to teach junior GM Holland as an underling to be pushed around and Holland refused to be cast in that role. Botha re very good reads. Essentially Holland has gotten much less credit for the 1998 and especially the 2002 championship clubs than he deserves. That said, I would still love to see Holland retire.

[jammer2]

@yave1964  At this point, at mid summer before the training camp portion of things can even start to be thought about....I think the Wings are 3 players short of a cup team....a legit #1 goalie (this could be Mrazek, who knows?) and 2 d-men....a legit #1 star franchise d-man and another puck moving d-man who is solid in his own end. They have the forward depth to overcome the big hurdle, a Tyler Myers type to lead the pp and be on the ice at key moments at the end of a game. Even though we know Myers is decent offensively, to say he's the answer in a late game situation, well, that is stretching things imo. Holland will have to go both the trade routes and maybe some depth signings to shore things up....his record for adding useful UFA's is simply atrocious, so not much help coming from that avenue. One big huge trade to finally shore things up on the back end is what is needed.

[Old School Hockey]

Look at that in Detroit! I real GM does something to improve his team!!

Wonder if Dave D can run two teams?