J0e Th0rnton

Joe Thornton

@J0e Th0rnton I see something there with McGinn, he may be a late blooming 24 year old. I still think he pops in 20-25 next year, depending on linemates, at least we know he'll have a good center, huh? He might just get paired with McKinnon, which would make 2/3's of a pretty fast and explosive line.

Maybe. I kept waiting for his work ethic and experience to turn into something an the Sharks gave him chance after chance because of his work ethic, but just did not see it happen. Joe Thornton tends to bring out the best in people(See Ryane Clowe, Milan Michalek, Jonathan Cheechoo) and teach them how to use their skills, but McGinn even with some time up with Joe was just not finishing opportunities or incorporating learned skills. His hockey IQ and hands and anticipation will never match his skating and heart I think. I hope I am wrong. I just see his ceiling as 40 points tops.

I don't think that Pavelski is overpaid on this contract, but using Staal as an example of why doesn't really work. He's 6 years younger, is better defensively, and not really any worse offensively.

ill concede that, Staal is a bit better defensively, but not by much. It was 2012 they finished close in votes for the Selke trophy(Staal finished 8th with 67 points, Pavelski 11th with 44 points). Staal has previous finishes that were higher than that, but lately, pavelski has closed the gap.

Offensively, They are close too. Pavelski does finish with 10-15 more points on average, but that is mostly because of PP time. He is just used in more situations.

The age definitely makes a difference, but that is why Staal is signed until 2023, While pavelski is only signed until 2018

Domi's a *****. If you can - and he easily could have - beat someone's ass than do that. You want to send a message? Level him. Beat him in a fight. But when he did there was no better - and in fact much worse - than what Ulf actually did to him in that very game. He's one of those guys who got weird at the end of his career too, running from goons, fighting fans, just cowardly stuff.

Domi is a jerk. I have no doubts about that. However in this case, I think the player on the recieving end deserved what he got as karma for all the star players he intentionally tried to take out over the years(And yes, Ulf was looking to take them out). A lot of players, coaches and analysts felt so too.

Domi definitely got his cheap shots in as well, and I never agreed with them other than this one. Not sure about the fighting fans thing. The only time I remember that was when a drunk fan got sprayed with a bit of water. And then he did something stupid, trying to jump over the glass into the penalty box, actually breaking the glass down and then trying to get shots in at Domi. In this case, if Domi threw a few shots at the rabid drunk fan who was obviously trying to atack him, I would find it perfectly acceptable.

@J0e Th0rnton Yep, Ulf is 25th all time and rarely fought. He has literally hundreds of 5 minute majors for intent to injure, knee on knee hits, cross checks to the face, slew footing...it goes on and on. I hate cheap shots like the one Domi pulled here, but in Ulf's case, I'll make an exception to the rule. IMHO, what Domi did was a statement, pre-planned and approved by almost all his piers, and I'm not talking his Leaf teammates, I'm talking piers as in the whole league. He wanted to send a message, if you are gonna head hunt and give out spineless hits that end careers, there is a price to pay. It was intended to shame Ulf, and I believe he accomplished that goal.

It was street justice in it's purest form. Ulf ended so many great careers, he deserved that in spades. I hated Ulf so much, I would have been fine if Domi picked up his limp body and gave him a few more for good measure. The thing is, Ulf victims never saw it coming, so it was poetic justice that Ulf was dropped like that. I was watching that game live with a room full of buddies, we all stood up and cheered, high fiving each other. My one buddy Mike is a huge Bruins fan, and he had so much anger built up in him from Ulf ending Neely's career early that he actually had tears of joy when that punch was delivered by Domi.

The funny thing is, I do not remember a single one of Ulf's teammates rushing to his defense either.

I did not watch the gam when it happened, but a friend called me and I watched highlights of it all night

Samuelson was goading Domi just before the punch, calling him Ty Dummy. If you're going to mouth off, you better be ready for a poke. I don't remember her exact words, but Samuelson said that his wife told him that he should have been prepared.

Samuelson got what he deserved.

@J0e Th0rnton

Well that makes sense, I wasn't aware that they would sign for a discount. Realistically the Sharks signing both Marleau and Thornton for around 4.5 - 5M for 3 years or so would be a good deal.

It would be an amazing deal to get them for 5 million, but we will see, depending on if the cap goes up again, and if we can unload Havlat. Realistically, I think Jumbo Joe gets 6 million again, and Marleau gets a bit less. Dan Boyle will be the guy taking a bigger paycut because he is 37 and visibly slowing down.

"We're the sum of all our parts," Wilson said. "The beauty of our team is when everybody brings something to the table and plays the way our coaching staff wants us to play, we can play with anybody. You talk about our core, when veteran guys like Joe and Patty and Danny encourage and support guys like [Pavelski] and Logan and [burns] and Marc-Edouard Vlasic and Justin Braun and Matt Irwin to not only take on more roles and accepting everybody has to bring leadership, it makes you a better hockey team. That's how we look at it. They like to see our younger players step up and do well, and that is the sign of a good team."

Rofl. I did not realize until now just how many centers the Sharks have.

I think 10 centers must be the NHL record. Granted that is why we are such a good faceoff team. We cheat on faceoffs and if one guys gets thrown out, the next guy cheats on faceoffs and the refs rarely stop and throw the second guy out.

Thornton, Marleau, Pavelski, Couture, Kennedy, Burish, Sheppard, Wingels, Desjardins and Hertl are all natural centers.

I'll take a crack...jammer2's all underrated Ontario team!

Daniel Paille: One of the leagues best checkers, just brings it every night. Tough Ontario kid from Welland. Was on both of Guelph's Memorial Cup teams in the early 2000's. Really stepped it up in this years playoffs, netting 3 game winners and nine total points from his 4th line position. Had a career high 19 goals for the Sabres in 2008, have never figured out why the Sabres would have let him go, Buffalo's loss was Boston's gain.

Bryan Bickell: The Beast from Bowmanville, Ont tore it up in the playoffs for the Champion Hawks. Terrific snarl to his game and skates better than he gets credit for. The former Spitfire had 17 pts in 23 playoff games this past spring, including 2 game winners. Played on Ottawa's 2006 Memorial cup team. Gives no ground in front of the net, at 6'4 and 235 pounds a load for opposing d men to handle.

Jamie McGinn: The Fergus, Ont native is a budding power forward. Fantastic work ethic and a great teammate, he is poised for a break out year in 2013. Was Bickell's teammate on the 06 Ottawa 67's team that went to the Memorial Cup.

Jake Muzzin: The Kings young d-man broke into the NHL last year and supplied a lot of hard work and some surprising offense from his 3rd pairing minutes. The former Sault Ste. Marie Greyhound and Woodstock, Ont native has no where to go but up, should have a nice solid career, offensive numbers should keep trending upwards.

Adam Henrique: The Brantford, Ont native and former Windsor Spitfire is one of my favourite players to ever lace up skates. Elite skater with dynamic moves, he's destined to be an all star in the coming years. Played a major role in Windsor's back to back Memorial Cup Championship squads in 09 and 2010. In the 2010 OHL playoffs, he netted 20 goals in 19 games including 2 series winning goals and 4 OT goals total. Has terrific vision and hands. 17 pts in 10 career Memorial Cup games. Regressed a bit last year, I'm expecting a 25 goal season from him next year.

Dan Girardi: Another hard nosed Welland, Ont native, Dan plays a nice composed all round game. Broke in with Barrie, played on Memorial Cup teams in London and Guelph. One of Canada's underrated gems, he never gets talked about enough, but plays a super smooth transition game, kills penalties with vigor and is one of the best passers in the game. Super smart guy, a rink rat if there ever was one.

Jay McClement: He might just be the best checking center in the NHL. Great on draws, suburb penalty killer, perfect defensive positioning. The former Brampton Batallion center from Kingston does not get enough press, his work ethic is beyond reproach. Consistantly shuts down the oppositons best forwards with little to no fanfare, even in the hockey crazy city of Toronto he gets lost in the shuffle.

Oh how I wish everyone on the Sharks had his energy and work ethic and physicality at all times.

That being said, I do not think he will ever be a top 6 forward or break 40 points. His hockey IQ is just not great and his hands do not match his skating. His ceiling to me, if he ever hit it, would be a third line forward

Excellent physical and energy line player though and he cycles the puck very well.

Granted if he is given icetime and PP time, he might just pull a Darcy Tucker and have 1 great year.

So will little joe be Big Joe next year? I was looking at the roster in cap geek and it seems as if the Sharks are maybe in that do or re-tool next year mode. This is a huge season, all the pieces are in place. I think Pavelski is capable of being more than a 40pt player, but much depends on where he is played. A healthy Havlat is also key for success next season.

Sort of ironic that both Havlat and Heatley were both injured to avoid buyouts.

I don't think so. Wilson, Thornton and Marleau all seem to think they will retire sharks. The cap i keep hearing different things about. Some say it will stay the same, and others insist it will likely wok its way up to 70 million next season. Even if it stays the same, Havlat is being bought out at the first opportunity(Nobody is happy with him) or we may trade him for future considerations if anyone wants him. Boyle is 36-37 and his contract is up. he will likely never get that kind of money again, and can be resigned at a lower price. Thornton and Marleau are both 33-34 and Thornton has always proven willing to take a discount and short terms. I think 6 million is the new cap for our forwards to be honest. Thornton and Marleau both want a cup, not money. Thornton has said as much in an interview.

Pavelski is already more than a 40 point player.

He is a regular 25-30 goal, 60 point player and seems to produce no matter who he plays with at ES(but has best results with the top line of Pavelski/Thornton/Marleau. That line is deadly). He plays in all situations and is a pointman on our PP. But he is also our top Pker. The past 2 seasons he has been a 2nd/3rd line center and occasionally jumps to the wing for Jumbo Joe and Marleau. This past season he played with Wingels and Torres. Well, he tends to hop all over every line occasionally. The coach makes everyone practice together so he can throw mishmass lines out. The season before last we saw a lot of Clowe/Pavelski/Wellwood/Mitchell/Setoguchi.

Couture is much the same. They juggle his linemates a lot, but he always comes through looking great. not the best skating in Couture, but his hockey IQ is amazing and makes up for it.

I suspect before long, we will hear that Jumbo is extended, and likely, Marleau as well. But not for more than 6 million a season.

Many of the same things could be said about Domi, and I wouldn't want somebody to crush him in the face with a cheapshot either.

JR

Definitely. I am incredibly biased obviously since Neely was my favorite player growing up and Ulf effectively ruined him and his career.

I just hate Ulf for being the supreme hit and hide player. Since I started watching hockey, I have never seen a dirtier player.

Edit: How many other players have 2453 penalty minutes with as few fights as Ulf? I am pretty sure he is like top 30 all time for Penalty minutes and that every guy above him was a noted fighter who had more penalties for fighting than other infractions

Who are some of the most underrated players in the game today?

On my Short list is a guy named Kyle Wellwood, a nice little player who has a crisp pass and is usually a 40 point or so player but for some reason always has to wait for someone to have a preseason injury to find a job. I remember an announcer saying he skated as if he were in mud once, so obviously he has holes in his game but forty plus points fairly consistently and always begging for a job.

The other guy who comes to mind is Matt Moulson. Does anyone even know he scored 30 plus goals three years in a row for the Islanders no less? I cannot think of any other three time 30 goal scorer in the game today who gets less ink. The dude has a nose for the net and nobody notices. This guy actually was drafted by the Penguins, signed as a minor league free agent by the Kings, given a little shot and released by the Kings before getting his first real shot with the Isles in 2009-10 at the age of 26. He defines underrated.

Those are mine, what say you?

Not sure if I would have Wellwood there. By all accounts, he has the talent to be much more than he is. granted, I did not mind him on a lower line role with the Sharks, but i also was not clammoring to keep him.

A year ago I would have said Suter, but now everyone knows how good he is. I used to think Bergeron was underrated, but a lot of people are hip to the guy now. Damn great player he is.

@fanaticV3.0@JR Ewing

Efff That. Samuelsson deserved worse.

A guy who intentionally tried to blow peoples knees out(And often did). A guy who intentionally high sticked people in the eyes. Cross check people in the neck as hard as he can. Spear people in the nuts. Butt ending people in the face.

He was always intentionally trying to knock people out of the game. Everytime you played him, you knew you had to keep an eye out for the cheap shots. This is a guy who players agreed almost unanimously as most hated in the NHL for YEARS.

He wore ridiculous sized hard armor for pads to maximize damage done by hits(His Nickname Robocop was not an affectionate one). He refused to answer the bell after the cheap shots.

In Todays NHL, Ulf would have been banned long ago. How often does a sucker punch like that invite praise from so many other NHLers? There was a reason for that.

I like Pavelski but that sounds like a million or two high to me. I suppose inflation hits hockey too!

Well, Pavelski puts up a good deal of points considering he does most of it at ES, and more recently has been doing it on the third line checking opposing teams with little help. He also is the teams go to PK guy

Looking at the Market and recent signings.

Filppula is making 5 million. He has one 23 goal, 66 point season under his belt. Same age as Pavelski, but overall, usually a 40 point guy tops. He does not kill Penalties often.

Clarkson is making 5.25 million a year, and is a one time 30 goals scorer with a career high 46 points who does not kill penalties.

Jordan Staal makes 6 million for the next 10 years. His defensive play is roughly the same, but his offensive value is a wee bit less. He is the best comparison.

For all the extra things Pavs brings to the table, he could have tested the Market and possibly gotten more.

This made me laugh

Phew. Was worried I'd be on the hook for dinners this year. Big Money Pavelski will be taking care of them now????

— Logan Couture (@Logancouture)

July 30, 2013

"Phew. Was worried I'd be on the hook for dinners this year. Big Money Pavelski will be taking care of them now"

Jason Demers responds

"that's what you think couture hahaha"

Hmmm. Not that I am happy with our defense, but it is not that bad. haha. I am assuming he is just going for reactions with this.

Vlasic and Stuart are very solid defensive defenders. Boyle is still great offensively, although aging fast. Demers shows flashes of a prime Dan Boyle and Braun is not that bad. Hannan is old, but plays better than murray did as a #6 guy. Irwin....yeah, he makes me nervous when he is on the ice. Tennyson looked decent in his call up.

Overall, you will not see many shark fans complaining. Most think it is a wee bit too much but not really given the market, and overall, we are very happy. Couture and Pavs would fetch a fair price on the open market for their two way skills given what guys like Filipula, Clowe and Clarkson are getting(Both are better than any of them)

Core players locked up for 5-6 years.

If the cap goes up next year, we have a bit more breathing room. if not, well, we have around 15 million for Thornton/Marleau/Boyle. Boyle being 37 can expect a paycut. We might be able to swing it. Thornton an Marleau up till now have agreed to short term 3-4 year contract extentions every few years in a land where everyone was asking for very long term deals. Both have expressed desire to win a cup there.

Pavs original extention was only 4 million a year when he could have asked for more on the market. He is being rewarded now.

I hope and hope that the next thing I hear is Thornton and Marleau get extentions at a hometown discount.

As a Wing fan I have watched a ton of Shark games, the two teams draw each other in the playoffs a fair amount and the regular season brings some interesting matchups as well.

In my opinion the Sharks cannot win as presently constructed. Too top heavy, no depth, poor prospects, I think they did a wonderful job retooling last season, Clowe and Murray had to go, a need for new blood was required. Torres was a brilliant pickup, getting Stuart back then adding his oldbuddy Scott Hannan was a good move replacing Murray.

My problem is the bottom lines and bottom pair blueliners cannot play NHL quality minutes and you cannot get anything of quality with your whole salary going for six or seven players. Quite frankly, until a Marleau or Thornton is dealt and the salary used to add quality in two or three spots this club is doomed to be a tough out in the playoffs but that is about it.

The Marleau and Thornton debate, as to which should go simplified:

The Marleau case: He has played his whole career in San Jose and the fans love him even though his stat line is slipping.

The Thornton case: He is now and has been and will likely continue to be a better player. It is not his fault that he started his caree elsewhere and Marleau didn't, he is perceived as a mild disappointment because he came over ad didn't lead the team to the promised land but he is a complete player and doesn't get his due.

Anyone who wants to pay Marleau Thornton money depriving the club of shoring up glaring holes that may be enough to get them over the hump simply because he has spent his entire career in San Jose is wrong.

Thank you. My thoughts exactly.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=679090&navid=nhl:topheads

That's great news to me as i love Little Joe. We currently have a cap hit of 4 mill for Pavs, and a 2 mill jump is not too bad. Coutures cap hit is currently around 2.9 million, jumping up 3 mill more. that's 5 million more than current to extend our 2 great young centers.

We GOTTA find a way to buy out Havlat now. Grrr on him being ineligible for buyout(Please god let this change). Boyle 's contract comes off the books next season too and Demers is RFA. Havlat's contract makes up the difference in their extentions and he is borderline useless and made of glass.

6 million for our two younger centers with Thornton and Marleau still not signed is a sign that things will be changing next season. We can't keep both unless they agree to smaller contracts. The Salary cap is reported to stay this way for the next 2 years. they both currently have cap its of 6.9 and 7 million. Would they agree to dropping to equal? Joe T would as he has in the past and said "I am already rich, I just want us to be able to put the pieces together for a cup". Not sure about Marleau, who took more than expected to resign last time.

Pavelski signs for a 5 year extension worth $30M according to multiple reports

I am going to have this discussion in the Sharks section lol.

@B21 I think it's a fair to conclude that Neal benefits pts wise from playing with a star like Malkin, as almost any player would. He's a nice player with or with out Malkin, but when you look at his pt totals for the Stars and then the Pens, it's obvious he gained roughly 10-15 more goals by playing with Malkin. Looks like he gave the Pens a bit of a hometown discount, which was a much needed cap break for you guys. 40 goal scorers that are young like Neal could easily get 6-7 mill a year in the current cap scenario.

In fairness, he also got more goals just because the Penguins allow players a bit more offensive freedom than the stars and gave Neal a bit more PP time, but for the most part, I agree.

This reminds me of the past few years when everybody and their mother was all ga ga about the availability of Getzlaf and Perry. I repeatedly stated over and over again they would be resigned....but it took 1000 meaningless threads before it happened. The Sedin's will be locked up by the Nucks or traded, but since they are locked at the hip for life, I don't see how any one team could swing signing both of them, and with their horrid playoff performances, why would ya? Pavelski and Marleau are so important to the Sharks, same as the Getzlaf and Perry deals, they will not be allowed to walk for free, traded or they will stay. Joe Thornton could be avialable, because he's getting up there and on the decline. He will want some outrageous 8 year deal, so I can see the Sharks lettting him go. King Henrik...um, no...he will be a NYR for life, no UFA for that guy. Boyle is regressing and will get more than he deserves. Leafs will lock up Kessel, take it to the bank.

Pavelski is definitely important to our future, but as a Sharks fan, I have to wonder how you take Marleau over Thornton. They are the same age, and Marleau's production declines drastically when facing top checkers. Thornton is not on that much of a decline and always draws the opposing teams top checkers. His numbers have dropped because he has adopted the team philosophy and is playing a more complete game, but he is still the most dangerous shark on the ice. The season before last he was still tied for 3rd in Assists and 12th overall in points(The difference between 12th in points and 5th was 6 points), and last season everything was tight. The difference between his 12th in assists and 7th was 1 point.

Marleau, while he has good wheels and a decent shot, just cannot carry a line like Joe can, nor can he tilt the ice in the direction of the opposing team. Thornton, no matter who is on his line, can make it dangerous. Always has. I am not big on +/-, but In this past playoff, Thornton was +5 when all other forwards were anywhere from 0 to -6 for a reason. The season before that when the Sharks got mopped by the blues, Thornton was the one forward you could not blame. The season before that, he was the best forward on any team up to the point they were eliminated by the Nucks. That and, unlike Marleau, Thornton actually took a discount. In no universe should Marleau be making the same money. at the time, everyone was all worried that the Market for a player like Joe was in the 8 million + range and that we were going to have to lose other key players who had contracts coming up(The Clowe's, Pavelski's, Vlasic's, etc), but he took the 7 million. most sharks fans were angry Marleau wanted the same money.

If the Sharks lose a combination of There stable of free agents they would have the money. As a Sharks fan if you lose Thornton/or Marleau and either Pavelski/Boyle would you sign the Sedins?? Can you iagine losing Marleau and Boyle but having a top line of Thornton and the two Sedins? And would it be worth it?

Thornton is still a great player and the ice tilts when he is on it into the offensive zone. Drawing the best defensive coverage. I have always felt Marleau is riding his coattails. I could stand losing Marleau. Thornton and the Sedins would not be on the same line Thornton can produce no matter who is on his line, and he often does.

Losing Boyle is more problematic since we will need a new Offensive Dman if Demers has not developped more

Thanks for the list. So the top free agents for next yar as I see them are:

Marleau

Thornton

Pavelski

Boyle

Vanek

Lundquist

Henrik

Daniel

Kessel

WOW. What a class. Of course most if not all of these guys will resign before next July. As a Wing fan, the Sedin twins would be a nice addition to our own 'Little Stockholm.'

The Sedin twins create quite a pickle for people who want to sign them. They go as a pair, or not at all according to the grapevine.

You need 13+ million just to have a shot at 2 players....

Little Joe gets about a third of his points on the PP, usually less. He is a great player who works hard and is our top PK guy. Excellent in shootouts incidentally. I hate the thought of losing him.

Doug Wilson recently did a radio interview which hinted at a Torres/Pavelski/Havlat third line. I cannot say for sure if they will try to keep Hertl at center, or move him to wing(Assuming he has a good camp). He apparently plays all 3 forward positions very well.

They love to spread the scoring out and I do not like the idea of kennedy on the first line soooo.

Kennedy-Thornton-Burns (Interested to see how well Burns scores)

Marleau-Couture-Havlat/Hertl?

Kennedy-Pavelski-Torres

Desjardsins - Sheppard - Wingels

Burish?

Burns is the guy who has me wondering. he was playing as a power forward, with a very unorthodox style and great skating as always. He scored 9 goals and 11 assists in 23 games at forward(17pts at ES). Not bad considering he is not used to the position.

Torres more than made up for the loss of Clowe, of course, you have the BS from shanny that cost the Sharks Raffi for most of the series.....

Definitely. I missed Torres and since it came down to 1 goals in game 7, I think we could have pulled it off

Yeah not sure how much he thinks he's going to get, Rangers though we'll see.

Murray was just moved some they can work some of their young guys into the lineup...Nick Petrecki and Matt Tennyson and Konrad Abeltshauser maybe fresh off a Memorial Cup win...man they're deep.

And don't forget Sena Acolatse too...somebody may go!!!!!!

Hmmm. With burns playing wing permanently now and Boyle looking older every year, i would be lying if I did not say i defense worried me.

Patrecki is a bust prospect good sir I was high on him for years and watched his developpment, or lack thereof.

Konrad Abeltshauser I saw play all year for the Moose. I liked what i saw but it seems others do not agree with me