J0e Th0rnton

Cleghorn really could become unhitched out there. He was the personification of mayhem. In 1923, he had to be sneaked into the Aberdeen Pavillion in Ottawa because the fans wanted to tear him apar physically. What did he do? Got into the building, skated out to centre, and thumbed his nose at the crowd. lol

What's easy to lose sight of was that he was a truly great player, aside from all of the violence (remembering that it was also an extremely violent era of hockey; worse than anything ANY of us have seen). He had Norris quality seasons in 1913, 1915, 1917, 1920 and 1925. He was the bridge to Eddie Shore, the other classic combination of brilliance and brutality on defense.

Even wrapped up his career on the same team, if you can imagine them on the same blueline.

JR

heh. yeah I know a good deal about Shore since he was a Bruin

This is Sprague Cleghorn. He was a magnificent puck rushing defenseman. His violent and psychopathic on-ice tendencies are legendary, especially after he was traded from Ottawa to Montreal. He made it his life's goal to make their lives a misery. He broke his leg prior to the 1918 season, and ended up being arrested after assaulting his wife with his crutches. In 1923, he went after the Sens' Lionel Hitchman and bashed his face so badly that he nearly incited a riot. For that one, Cleghorn was fined $200... By his own team. The next year he followed that up by going after Hitchman again, butt-ending him in the eye, and later took out Buck Boucher's knees. One time he beat the hell out of Newsy LaLonde (a tough guy himself) so badly, and continued to pummel LaLonde after he was out cold and lying on the ice, almost causing another riot. His career was dotted by cross-checks to the head and face, spearings, kneeings, butt-ends, running opponent's faces into the boards, as well as administering some of the worst beatings in the league, which is saying something for hockey in the 1920s. Along the way, Cleghorn may have even purposely cut Boucher's face with his skates.

Oh. And:

JR

Holy crap! Ill admit, I know little of Hockey beyond the 70's forward. This guy sounds like a maniac

Bah. I would have taken him

No Cap space though

Tretiak deserves mention for sure. He's the one Russian player ever who gets standing ovations across Canada any time he shows his face. And he earned every bit of that respect.

I dunno. Kharlamov also got the standing O when he was alive

Remember the night Domi punched Ulfie? I thought that was hilarious.

It is one of the only times I have seen in the NHL where a cheapshot was talked about like it was deserved. Some of the players suggested giving Domi a bonus cheque lol.

@JR Ewing I dunno about you guys, but one thing I really can't stand is a dirty goalie...a dirty player is one thing but when a goalie dirtily raps a player on the back of the knees, etc..I instantly lose all respect for him...a la Billy Smith, Tim Thomas, Mike Vernon...those 3 off the top of my head...if my memory serves me right, also Mike Smith?

Then there was, Ron Hextall. ahah. Who was more Wild animal than goalie.

I hate to say it, but I lived in St. Louis in the late '90s. Couldn't remember who got with who's wife (and I do not want to slander anyone), but I had people who knew the players personally refer to it as accepted fact, and the reason one player got traded out of town. I'm thinking it was a couple of Hall-Of-Famers, actually; I can't remember, but no one questioned that it happened.

That would be Shanahan with Janney's wife. It is not a rumor, but accepted fact.

Mostly because she divorced Janney and Married Shanahan in short order.

The other 100% true one if not really between players. But Martin Brodeur.....err...let's just say his in law's were already his in law's when he married a second time. Those have to be the most awkward family dinners ever.

Ulf Samuelsson was the first person that came to mind. I'm not sure whether it's a good answer, but it was the first that came to mind when I saw "dirty player."

Actually liked the guy, though.

Thank you. Ill never forgive that man for his hit on Neely.

@J0e Th0rnton Marcel Dionne, not dynamic?? Someone was feeding you bad info. That guy lifted people out of their seats. Almost a ppg in the playoffs is a very respectable number.

Only 3 players ever scored at a rate of 1.5 pts per game in the playoffs, and 2 of the 3 are named Wayne and Mario. Guys that didn't put up a pt per game in the playoffs....Steve Yzerman, Stan Mikata, Rocket Richard among many others...yet they are considered all time greats. Marcel gets a bad rap all the time. Sure they those guys had cups to show for their efforts, but also had great supporting casts. 0.91 pts per playoff game puts in and around the top 60 of all time, not shabby for a guy with little to no defense on his team and no secondary scoring to take the heat off him. He played with dogged determination, did everything humanly possible to help his team advance.

Certainly if you look at career numbers. However, many many great players have kept their season average points per game close to their playoff average(Looking merely at their prime years).

The guys you mentioned all played in the low scoring periods of hockey(Half of Yzerman's career was DPE, and he has a very good playoff PPG in the 80's)). Marcel played in the, well, highest scoring times ever. His drop in numbers compared to his regular seasons were astronomical. Yzerman did get comparisons to Dionne before he won finally the big one of course. Much like Joe Thornton does now.

Dionne was one of the most underrated superstars...ever. He's still solidly in the top 5 of all time for pts, and the playoff series, I don't blame him one bit. For the most part, the Kings secondary scoring was horrid. He had a solid 45 pts in 49 playoff games ya know.

Dionne scored at a rate of 1.50 points per game on average in the regular season, and yet dropped off to 0.91 in the playoffs.

that is a huuuuuge drop in personal production.

Granted I did not see a lot of him, but the Kings fans I know told me his game was simply, well, predictable, and not dynamic. And they accused him of disappearing, being shut down and only scoring points in games when they were losing 6-1 already. When Kings fans tell me Joe Thornton looks outstanding in the playoffs in comparison......I have to believe Dionne was pretty subpar at crunch time.

Granted NOBODY could have lead those teams to cups. All I am saying is that his personal production suffered at a time when he was supposed to be elevating his game. He was the #1 target for shutdown in the regular season as well.

Ouch.

I am pretty sure Marcel Dionne is the only man in the hall of fame who never won a best of 7 playoff series.

It's not only that, but I've seen this precise set of posts from a guy who went around to a bunch of forums at the same time, all so he could bait people with an argument over GWG, and he could "expose" their "lack of logic", when all they were doing was explaining the league's logic to him. He wasn't interested in discussion or debate. He was interested in looking down on people.

He was, in short, an ass.

I don't know if this is the same guy, but if he is..............

JR

Mushroom Cloud?

@Hockey Junkie I would venture to guess that the other Sabre fans on here don't share your opinion. Niether does a fan of any other team. Either you're right, or millions and millions are wrong. Not trying to be rude, but the claim that Miller is the best goalie is laughable. Cheering for your team is one thing, but making claims like that...if it was not me, somebody else would be calling BS. I'm not even gonna look up the stats, don't have to, I know Miller has been very, very average for years now...not just last years injury situation as you claim. Lot's of goalies get shelled on a nightly basis and still maintain a respectable save percentage.

Miller had a standout year or two. but he is far from the best goalie now.

I'm kind of on board with this.

On the other hand, I still don't like interleague play in baseball and miss the days when the leagues in MLB were completely separate. With Centre Ice packages and the like, it's not like the old days when you could go only see Marcel Dionne once or maybe twice a year because games weren't televised and you had to wait to see them live or when they happened to play your team.

I think I might be okay with east playing east exclusively and west playing west exclusively. I think it would be unfortunate, though, for teams like Chicago and Detroit who do have history against each other to suddenly be entirely segregated from one another.

As you can tell, I could probably argue this either way and still help whomever I'm arguing against.

Marcel Dionne makes Joe Thornton look like a Conn Smythe winner

You know what? if the NHL wants to really bring back division rivalry and playoff rivalry, I think the schedule should be heavily clustered with only teams in your division. Almost along the lines of 80% vs Division, 18% vs other teams in your conference and 2% vs the other conference. That would work out to 65 game vs division rivals, 15 games vs the rest of the conference, and 2 game vs the other conference.

I also think that for any First round matchups, they should default to playing teams in their own division if possible.

This being the sixth page, I'm gonna throw ol' Vladislav Tretiak out there for consideration (there hasn't been an "NHL" disclaimer put on here).

Best known in the states for being pulled in 1980, he has a ridiculous resume internationally as well as against NHL competition.

After wowing the world in the 1972 Summit Series (two wins over Ken Dryden), in the 1976 Super Series he held the Rangers to three and Bruins to two goals. Secured a 3-3 tie against (future Cup winner) Montreal despite being outshot 38-13.

And lost to the (three-time Cup Finalist) Flyers.

If we're talking "best ever" he should be in the discussion and I'd bet most of the guys we're talking about would agree.

I threw his name up too

The only person I have ever seen trash Tretiak's goaltending is Phil Esposito.

I heard things about a goaltender for Czechoslovakia who outdueled the Soviets and Tretiak for gold twice in the 70's on a vastly inferior team. Anyone got a name for him?

Was Roger Millions fired for this?

@J0e Th0rnton I don't see a lot of NYR games, just the ones against the Flyers. I have seen the floating you were talking about, but have no idea how much it happens in games that don't involve the Flyers. He has a legit shot at making the Canadian Olympic squad again, if he is really overrated, why not just pick one of the other 10 stars that Team Canada has access to? With guys like Stevie Y, Gretzky advising, I don't think you skate by on reputation.

I saw it a lot in Shark games vs Columbus. but also when I happened to catch a columbus game vs anyone. Often if the sharks are not playing, I will watch whatever team strikes my fancy.

I wouldn't want to give a goalie credit or blame for the system employed his team. People are constantly knocking Brodeur for the Devils trapping (like so many other teams, btw). My issue with Brodeur is that the save percentage was just never there. Great goalie, didn't make my top 5 (was 6th).

On the other side of the coin, people want to sometimes give a little bit too much credit for goalies that played under a looser defensive system. With Grant Fuhr, the point is sometimes stretched to the absurd, and people talk about the Oilers as if they didn't give a rat's ass about defense when I can assure you they did. For all of the talk of the hard job Fuhr had, it was guys like Hextall, Burke, Bannerman, Hrudey, etc, who saw a lot more rubber each game.

a] Yeah, yeah... Paul Coffey... And the other 5 guys? Most years it was guys who were very good defensively: Kevin Lowe, Charlie Huddy, Lee Fogolin. Solid defensively: Jeff Beukeboom, Craig Muni, Steve Smith, Randy Gregg.

b] Forwards? They had two guys who were among the top vote getters for the Selke year-in and year-out: Craig MacTavish and Esa Tikkanen.

c] There is tremendous defensive benefit to always being at the other end of the ice, pushing play at the opposition. Less time in your zone, less chances at you net.

This isn't to say that the Oilers played a stifling defense. We're talking about the 80s; nobody really did that. You could see more breakaways in one game than you see in a month of games these days. But, over time, talk of how the Oilers played has taken on a life of its own.

TLDR for Fuhr: Like Brodeur, the save percentage just wasn't there.

JR

And Kurri

With Brodeur that is usually the point I bring up when people decide to go with pure "He has the best wins + shutouts"

Yes the Oilers were not all that bad in their own end. Coffey was pretty bad, and sometimes Gretzky, but Gretzky tilted the ice the other way in a way that makes him transcend the need for 2 way play.

I agree with fc on Nash. A tad overrated, yeah...I can buy that, but he did have some crappy linemates in Columbus and NYR. Look at Nash's international play. On a team full of stars for Team Canada at the past Olympics, he was on the top 2 lines and actually stood out in the crowd. Amazing what happens when a skilled guy actually gets to play with other stars....ha ha. Let's face it, not many guys would fill the net with Richards as their center, or even the young and promising Stephan leaves a lot to be desired.

I hate that idea. Usually the truly skilled superstars can make magic happen no matter who their linemates are. Joe Thornton turned Cheechoo into a 56 goal scorer and scored 96 points at one point when michalek was 2nd with 55 points. Occasionally you get a superstar who needs others specific tools to make him stand out, but usually, players who need to carry the load and play more because they are the team do better than Nash.

What I notice about Nash is, his lack of effort. Sometimes, you can see him just dictate his will. He decided to show up that night and the other team is easing up on the forecheck and crossing their fingers every time he is on the ice.

But if for whatever reason he decides he is not happy that night, he will float. Which is 2/3rds of the games I see him play.

Heya hollywood. Good to see the most active poster from our prospects/minor league forum still filling us in

Wing : I'd disagree on Nash. I mean I think he's a bit overrated. He played on a horrible Columbus team his entire career and put up decent numbers. But can he play more than HALF a season on a new team before getting crucified? Especially when he spent part of that season playing with Richards whose game totally disappeared. James Neal looks like a superstar...take Malkin away and he can't score a goal. How many goals does Nash score on Malkins wing? Ovechkin? Hart trophy...gimme a break. The guy took TWO seasons off, he's doesn't have heart. Maybe more overpaid than overrated, I dunno. I like Lucic but think he's overrated sometimes. Bobby Ryan is certainly overrated around these boards.

Center ; Again, i LIKE Bolland. He's no #1 and noone ever said he was. He does his job very well IMO. Giroux gets overrated around here. He's shown potential, but he's no superstar yet. He just got paid to be one though. The Sedins? Ryan Kesler had one great year. Crosby is overrated by some in that he's nowhere near Gretzky, Orr , Lemieux, Howes league. Still the best player, when healthy. Brad Richards WAS overrated, the truth is out now. .

Dman - Kris Letang - the NEW Mike Green. If points are your thing, he's great. If you think defenceman should help stop the opposing team from scoring...yuck. Chara is getting old. He looked pretty damn good against the Pens. And bad against the Hawks. Phaneuf was voted the leagues most overrated player by NHLers a year ago. I'll take their word.

Goalie : Well Bryz was NEVER overrated by me. Fleury is overpaid, but I think the cats out of the bag there. Price looked promising but has come down. Miller gets my vote. He looked like the best in the world a few years ago, and is pretty bad nowadays. Yet he still thinks he's great.

.

Pretty good sum up

Group C also has the Swiss team. A team that is well known for upsets. I would not be surprised at all if the Czech's ended up bowing out and Switzerland taking the second position in the group. I feel at this point the Swiss are more then capable of being moderate. Canada barely beat them in 2010 (took them to a shootout) and are coming off a silver medal at the last WHC. The group that played this year is a good indicator of the majority of the players we will in Sochi.

Welcome old friend

@Dgill

haha. I forgot you live in Halifax too. Nice win for the mooseheads eh? Pretty nice to watch the #1 and #3 overall picks their entire predraft season. I kinda prefer Drouin over Mackinnon(Even though Mackinnon is a beautiful Skater.) you must be beyond pleased to have grabbed Mack.

@nossagog I kind of view Brodeur and Dryden in the same light, they had a jaw dropping skill set, elite tenders who just happend to belong to defesnive minded teams. I was always amazed at how often Dryden stopped clear break aways, he was on his own then, no Big 3 of Lapointe, Savard and Robinson (and in later years Langway was even added, sick...) to save him, just him and the shooter....and he won a lot of the time. Sure, the defensive minded forwards like Charbonneau etc might have made life easier on them, but I have no doubt that either Ken or Marty would be in top 5 regardless of which teams they played for....they were just that good.

oh Definitely, but like we said, it is more for the people who merely look at stats and GAA and win/loss records that we apply that philosophy to Brodeur.

Some people equate stats with wins. Ed belfour has more wins and a better GAA than terry Sawchuk, but I have never seen a list that rates him higher. Same if you look at Curtis joseph vs Billy Smith.

The point is merely that his wins and GAA don't necessarily make him better than Roy/Hasek. I know I rank him below them

Will a western team play an eastern team in the finals each year? If so, that gives an unfair advantage to western teams, as they each have a 1:14 chance of reaching the Stanley Cup finals, while eastern teams have a 1:16 chance. Or could this be justified due to the extra travel western teams are subject to?

This was the first thing I was wondering