elmatus

I hadn't really considered how the pandemic would impact future contracts, but you're right in that it's very possible. The owners have to be eating quite a bit of dirt this season with so little income from the games.

I'd really rather not. Provo is better than Ghost on both sides. I wouldn't want him hampered because he has to watch his partner's back all the time. He needs to be able to use all his tools and not just play the back end. I mean, I'm quite firmly on the move Ghost bandwagon. There's really no point keeping him. We have a bunch of dmen who are just better than him in pretty much any situation. Move him and get something to feed the pipeline if possible, or keep him as Vegas bait, but I have to imagine there will be a more enticing option than Ghost for that.

I mean, It's possible sure. He should certainly improve from a 15pt season. What's his ceiling? 30pts? 40pts? 40pts in the NHL is nothing to laugh at. Does he hit 50 as his best season? That would be a great year for him. Prospects are prospects until proven otherwise. There's nothing to suggest NAK is a 60pt guy (which Voracek is). He seems far more likely to be a bottom six guy who might be able to punch above his weight on occasion if needed. Look, I get it. I want NAK to be a great player too. But I'm going to need more than 15pts in a season before I jump on the NAK is a 60pt/year player bandwagon. If I'm looking to hire someone to build a house, I'm far more likely to look to the guy who has built a bunch of nice houses. If I take a flier on a kid out of trade school who did alright with a shed, that's definitely some amount of risk I'm taking. He might turn out to be alright at it, but I have no great reason to assume that of him. It would be me working on a hunch. GMs who make their decisions based on hunches tend to not fare super well in this league (See: Chiarelli, Peter). As a side note, I feel like we've gotten pretty far away from the thread topic. I would still love to have Dubois in the O&B! As for what it would take to get Dubois (or Laine for that matter). We'd have to give up something shiny obviously. He's a third overall pick with significant upside who played very well in his rookie season. Guys like that are virtually never traded away. And when they are, it's for a mighty haul. I would be curious to see what that price tag might be though. I highly doubt Jake and Ghost would get it done. Maybe Patrick and Ghost, if CLS has really soured on him.

I can't imagine NAK being protected over Jake. I like NAK and all, but he has one season under his belt and a whopping 15 pts to show for it. Jake may not be the second coming of Clarke, but he's still a 60 pt per year guy. NAK is more likely to play a supporting bottom six role for whatever amount of years he plays in the league. Projections are fine to an extent, but Fletch isn't going to project NAK morphs to becomes a 60pt per year scorer on the basis of a single 15pt NHL season. Again, I do like NAK, but that's one hell of an oversell at this point. On that topic, if Jake is exposed to Seattle, he will almost certainly be their pick. They may not like what they get at times, but he'd be a pretty obvious choice from our team. Let's not forget: 2020 he was our third highest scorer (TK, Couts) 2019 he was our third highest scorer (Giroux, Couts) 2018 he was our second highest scorer (Giroux) 2017 he was our top scorer 2016 he was fourth (Giroux, Simmonds, Schenn) 2015 he was our top scorer 2014 he was second (Giroux) If he's available, he'll almost definitely be their pick.

I can't imagine Ghost would be their pick honestly. Again, the guy has been running on the fumes of a couple good season for too long now. There's bound to be someone more interesting left exposed. Must Protect: Giroux, Hayes 100% Guaranteed: Couts, Provorov, TK, Hart Very Likely: Jake, Sanheim, Myers, Lindblom Probable: Patrick That would up all our protection spots. If it falls that way, my money is on Seattle picking Laughton over Ghost. He's a solid bottom six guy. Ghost can barely crack the line up right now.

I mean, if they're willing to take Jake and Ghost, I would do it in a heartbeat. I don't hate Jake as others here seem to, but he's definitely not getting any younger, and this team needs solid future studs to build on right now -- Dubois is a great add in that direction. It's also worth noting there is an expac draft coming. Jake seems a very likely candidate to be lost at that point. I would much rather trade him for something good, and Dubois definitely fits the bill for me. All that being said, I have to imagine CLB will want a young player going back for Dubois. PLD is already a better and more impactful player than Jake. It doesn't make much sense for them to trade for a downgrade. As far as Ghost goes, he's already living on borrowed time as it is. Unless and until he can show he has something more to offer than what he has provided the last 2-3 seasons, he's not going to fetch very much in and of himself. He's an okay add to a deal like this though, as long as the team getting him is a gambling type. I've seen this noted a few times now about Ghost. Given his total body of work, it seems far more likely his good seasons were anomalies, and not the other way around. Hell, he barely got ice time last season. And when he did, he did nothing of note to keep the spot. That's just not going to fly on a team that has so many decent to good potential dmen waiting in the wings. So yeah, if something like Jake and Ghost can net a Dubois (seems very unlikely to me), I would do it for sure. The rumour mill has Laine's name getting thrown about also. I would do those two for him also, though I prefer Dubois personally. Honestly, if the Jake + Ghost combo for a high quality young player is available at all, I would very strongly consider it. But I'm very doubtful that pairing really gets it done for the caliber of player we're talking here.

Hey folks! For the record, I think Dubois is an absolute stud. He's the kind of guy who challenges for top line C duties on almost any team in the league, including ours. That's not to say I'd trade everything to get him, but I would absolutely be calling and thinking hard on the offer if it isn't too exorbitant. For my money, Dubois is better than Hayes right now, and he may very possibly end up better than Couts in the future. So yeah, I'd consider it for sure. To top it all off, PLD plays the way virtually all Flyers fans want their players to play. Not only is he skilled as all get up, he would be a fan favourite (for good reason) by the end of his first season with us.

How often are captains stripped of their C while they remain on the team though? That seems a very rare occurrence to me. I feel like Giroux will remain captain until at least his contract is up, and possibly up until he is moved (if he's ever moved). I get the frustration, and I'm not saying I disagree with it. I just can't remember the last time someone would have lost their C while still being a member of the team. As far as the off season goes, my guess is both Jake and JVR will be gone somehow. And frankly, that's exactly what should happen.

I do agree with a lot of this. I'm with you absolutely on how we're not getting magic out of trading Jake or JVR. I've seen some folks on here who have an awful habit of overvaluing trades like that (not to mention prospects...), and I'm really not sure why. Look at it this way: The team as is stands really appears to be missing top-end scorers. Scoring it turns out is really the whole point of Jake and JVR, and yet we're hoping to be rid of them in order to get younger and better scorers. No one is making a trade like that. Realistically, Jake may net us a 2nd round pick and some mid-six prospect, and JVR isn't even getting us that. Ghost is the worst of the bunch. It's telling how our PP was horrible throughout the playoffs, yet Ghost was never dressed. He may be moved, but it won't be for anything that helps fill the gaps on this team. We have a pretty good supportive forward cast already with guys like TK, Hayes, Farabee, Raffl, and Lindblom, and then we have Frost and who knows about Patrick. What we need is top end talent, not more supportive pieces. I also do agree with you that Couts would command a very significant return. That said, Couts is a top line 2-way center on most teams in this league right now. Hayes is a fine player, but he doesn't have the offensive capabilities to be a top line center. I'm not very comfortable trading our best center -- and a very good one at that -- without having someone else who may be ready to take his place. I'm almost certain that would turn out poorly for us. On the point of Giroux, I agree we're very unlikely to move him. Even if Fletch wanted to -- which he may not -- he has all the cards with his NMC. He's been in PHI his whole professional career and has a new baby and wife at home. I just don't see it happening.

Honestly? I really don't think anyone in our current pool will reach the same level of play as those guys. Barzal is good but a notch below those other three. It's conceivable we could draft a Barzal in the mid 1st or something, or maybe by some stroke of luck someone like Frost could come close to that (though he has a long way to go yet for that). To get a Mackinnon, Matthews, or Kucherov (an amazing and highly improbable find), we're almost guaranteed to be talking a top 1-3 pick. Someone was talking about Eichel being on the market though... I have no idea how much he'd cost, but then you'd be looking at that same ballpark. I'd consider Laine too, though I feel like he'd be best on a team where he's not expected to be the top guy. Feels like he needs to be a wingman to keep his ego in check and take some of the pressure off. Could be wrong though. At the very least, a Laine really needs solid playmakers to shine. Eichel on the other hand can stand alone a lot more imo. Not that we're likely to get either guy.. I'm just spitballing. I do think what this team really needs is a gamechanger or two though, and I don't think we have that in the system.

You're not wrong, but those four guys are not the major reasons why they walked all over us. They're nice supportive pieces for sure, but I would argue we already have a lot of those supportive pieces. What we really lack are the main pieces.

Failure or not, I'm mostly just looking at what went wrong and how that can be fixed. Only one team wins the cup every year after all. That said, a lot went wrong. The Flyers weren't just beaten, they were outclassed by a significant margin. The series made it to seven on the backs of better goaltending for the O&B, and that's about it. Even against Montreal, the 24th ranked team in the league, the Flyers could barely muster a half dozen shots on goal. They could have very easily lost that series and never even made it to the Isles in the first place. So yeah, they were beaten by a better deeper team... by a lot. So how does Fletch improve the team in a way where this type of showing doesn't happen again next year? Can he, or is there just too much of a gulf between this iteration of the Flyers and true cup contenders? What do they have that we don't? These are the good questions to ask, and I do think we're asking them.

I mean, I can think of at least 5x2 reasons? Yeo isn't the one on the ice after all.

I actually drank that just the other day for the first time. It was good. A buddy and I are doing whiskey run offs, comparing two at a time to see which ones we like best.

I'd be careful with those generalizations. The fanbase a rather large and diverse place. And yeah, I agree the team really can't hide behind coaching any longer. Coaches are clearly important, but at the end of the day, they're not the ones going out and trying to put vulcanized rubber in a net come gametime. The core of this team has had ample opportunity to show whether or not they have what it takes to win a cup, and so far they've just fallen short. The question is -- what is missing? Hart has been amazing. Provorov, Myers, Niskanen have all been very good also. Couts is always a rock (when not injured). Hayes has fit in nicely. A number of depth players like Laughton, Pitlick, NAK, and the ever steady Raffl have filled their roles admirably too. No team in the league has all of the pieces, and that's already a pretty good list. Do we lack top level scoring talent? I believe so. Conditioning? Maybe. Drafting for the wrong things? It's possible. Poor luck (hi Patrick!)? Also possible. But yeah, I can understand questioning the coach when it's Hakstol. His tenure was a parade of head scratching decisions. Vigneault and his trio have some ridiculous amount of NHL coaching experience, and in Vigneault's case, a high degree of success. Is Trots better? Yeah, probably, but we need to start focusing on the players over the coach here, or we're just talking in circles. I would add that it's notable how both the Habs and now Isles have adopted largely the same gameplan in dealing with the Flyers, and it's worked wonders. The difference between the two teams is mostly a product of there being more talent on the Isles squad than the Habs. This may be an unpopular opinion, but I actually think our dmen are a major reason why we're still in this. Sure, they're not all created equally, but Provo, Myers, and Niskanen in particular have bailed out the team more often than I can count, and while Sanheim has wavered a bit more, he also has been generally positive. That said, I do wish Braun would choose to take a walk outside the bubble and not be allowed back in for the rest of this. That would be nice.

Braun was the worst player on the ice last game. I would much rather not see him play another game for this team. To me, he is absolutely a liability and clearly makes this team worse. Full stop.

JVR has actually been one of the brighter spots this whole series. I have no idea how or why that would be, but he's been very noticeable offensively at least, which really isn't something I think I've ever thought about him since he's been back. I mean, they're getting outplayed by a mile, and I agree AV is also being outcoached very badly. There's a lot to gripe about, including the way they seem to chase the puck and how they get hemmed in the d-zone while so rarely pressuring the Isles in a similar manner. Some of that is coaching, and I do think some of it is conditioning also. If they manage to somehow pull off the miracle on Saturday, it will be about 90% because of goaltending. And that is a sentence I have not had a chance to utter in many many years. Beyond Hart, Provorov has been beastly, and I've enjoyed watching Myers too. Hayes has also been very good, I just wish he had better finish. To me, he feels like an upgraded version of Raffl -- he does so many things well, but he remains challenged when it comes to finishing skill. Still, he's amazing at just being opportunistic and turning a defensive gaff into a scoring chance, which is pretty much the only way we're making any goals. So, in many ways, Hayes is probably our best hope for beating a team like the Isles in game 7. TK to me has been disappointing. I mean, he can chirp all he wants, but if he's not backing up the chirps with solid play, it makes him seem frustrated and desperate. He's been outmuscled and outsmarted from the first puck drop. Hopefully he can find a way though. It would be a nice boon.

Yeah, I mean I don't hate him. I'm not sure he brings much more than what we'd be giving up to get him though. I'm not convinced he's much better than Voracek in terms of production or really in what he brings to the ice. He has good stretches and then he has bad stretches, a lot like Voracek. If he could be had for cheap, and we still have those assets to move elsewhere to bolster the team further, then yeah sure. I just don't think he makes our team all that much better if we nix someone like Voracek to get him (and -- as you well know -- I am in no way a Voracek fan). The biggest challenge right now seems to be Giroux really. Not that I think we have to move him. His playoff performance has been garbage for sure, but he's still a very good player -- if not a truly dominant one. Realistically though, he's the only one I'd be okay with moving who would really give us a potentially solid return to build on. I mean, there's also Provorov or Couts, but if Fletch even so much as sniffs at that possibility, there better be a riot outside his office the next morning.

Eichel is definitely a top caliber player. I'm not sure we have what it takes to land a guy like him in a trade though. This may be an unpopular opinion on a Flyers forum, but I'm not sold on Johnny Hockey. Not that he's bad by any stretch, but I don't see him as being much better than our current problematic core players. In fact, he strikes me as someone who is really quite similar to Giroux in a lot of ways. He likely would be too expensive for what he would bring. Just wait for free agency and see if he's willing to sign for his childhood team (if he's still productive at that point). Eichel though, yeah definitely. I'd have to think a trade for Eichel -- if at all possible -- would need to include Giroux (and very likely Patrick) as a starting point, and I'm not convinced G would wave his NMC to play in a place like Buffalo. Does Patrick, Voracek, and a pick get it done? If so, i'd consider it for sure, but I highly doubt Buffalo would give an offer like that much thought unless there's something really sour between them and Eichel.

I definitely think it's fair to look at moving some of the core. Certainly Voracek and JVR shouldn't be Flyers next season, and I would expect that to be on Fletch's list also. I would say the same for Ghost, if anyone wants him. Personally, I'm not opposed to moving Giroux either, though I doubt it'll happen for a variety of reasons. That said, the sad and awful truth is we really don't have any high caliber studs waiting to take over this team. And yeah, that isn't necessary for every cup winning team, but for every 19-20 STL Blues, there are any number of Pens, Caps, Bruins, Hawks, Kings, etc, etc, etc. The vast majority of true contenders have at least one of the league's top players. We have zero such players now, and we have zero prospects who are likely to become that in the short term (or ever). Frost, Allison, Rubstov... these guys may make the league, but it's highly likely they would top out as good supportive mid-six players at best. Patrick is really the only one who ever had top billing, and frankly we would have seen something from him by now if he had that level of potential. Can guys develop an extra gear later in their careers? Sure, it's not impossible, but it's extremely rare. And those who do reach that level without much fanfare leading up to it rarely play at that level for very long (see: Benn, Jamie). The good news is we have a goalie and defensive core that is young and seems to be headed in the right direction. Unfortunately, finding key top-level forwards is an elusive prospect at best.

I'm honestly quite curious about this. It's pretty clear Fletch expects this team to compete in the short term -- right now, not in 3-4-5 years via some sort of rebuild. In short, I don't think he's looking for any kind of major shake up. That said, the problem with these playoffs has been about the team's top guns simply not getting it done at all (i.e. requiring a major shake up). So now we've possibly got a situation where what the team really needs is something the GM is unlikely to provide. Giroux has a NMC and a young family in a city he's now lived in for his entire professional career. Moving him would be a task that isn't without notable hurdles. Beyond him, Voracek seems the most likely to go regardless of what happens this year, whether in a trade or to Seattle or whatever. I have strong doubts he remains in an O&B jersey next season. But what does Fletch get in return for guys like that? Does it get us Point? Mackinnon? Pastrnak? Barzal? Does it replace our team with a top six that doesn't seem slow as molasses and largely incapable of throwing a hit to save their lives? And yeah, I know they're in the second round of the playoffs. But I'll be honest here, they hardly seemed the juggernaut in their series vs MTL -- a team that was 24th overall in the league -- and they can barely get a half dozen shots in a period now vs the Isles. And if they happen to have some next gear they have yet to tap into, they better figure it out pronto... If anyone wants some sort of silver lining... I hear a similarly downtrodden set of top guns out in Dallas have actually found a way to play some good hockey again.

Messy series so far. I have to say the Habs have largely outplayed the Flyers pretty much the whole time. PHI has gotten a sizable amount of luck to make it 2-1, and I'm not sure how long that can last. Perhaps not surprisingly, it feels like the only thing that gets past Price is some oddball deflective dirty goal (see: Voracek). I'll take it of course, but that definitely makes games significantly harder to win. He's also been a menace with the puck handling. MTL's gameplay seems to be mostly just force dumps into the zone and let Price handle it. Combine the dirty goals with MTL's awful luck in hitting so many posts, and I have to assume all that luck is bound to run dry eventually. It's also worth noting how much faster the Habs seem to be on the ice. They've been beating the Flyers to pucks at a ridiculous rate. Again, these are all things making it much harder to beat a team that really wouldn't even be in the playoffs at all if not for such awful circumstances. I will say this too: The Habs are playing much much better than any of Boston, Tampa, or Washington did in the round robin. I didn't watch much of them during the season, but I have no idea how this team ends up 24th in the league with the way they're playing in these playoffs. Do they regularly play this well early in the season? Maybe they're just a team that burns out mid way usually.

The most consistently underrated Flyer since 2013.

Hard to say. It'll likely be a question of who is available that fits the bill. Regardless, an article like that -- not to mention the simple eye test of those of us paying attention -- signals to me how amazingly impactful the coaching change has been. Don't get me wrong, the adds are a great boost, but I still think bringing in some quality and experienced NHL-level coaches is by far the biggest difference maker for this season.

I don't really feel the need to start a new thread. This article was a fun read for those of us who like having numbers attached to things we see. Note it largely boils down to (almost) everyone just playing better, including both our returning players and the new adds. Still, numbers! https://www.broadstreethockey.com/2020/3/4/21159359/philadelphia-flyers-nhl-game-score-analysis-lineup-chuck-fletcher-alain-vigneault-improvement