icehole

I also think what happened yesterday could be a good thing. Let's look at 2 scenarios. 1. Fans are all anticipating JVR gets dealt. Chuck unloads him at the deadline for a 4th rounder. Fans ease up. The team gets loose and they win a few games down the stretch. The flyers end up drafting at somewhere around 10th because of the meaningless games they won, and they have a 4th round pick that's not going to do anything to improve the team. The clueless team at Comcast says "chuck got it done and the fans seemed to have calmed down a little". They give chuck another year as GM. 2. Yesterday happens. Fans are irate. JVR is still on the team. He makes the team worse as it is, but now he's disgruntled because chuck says nobody want him. He doesn't want to push himself too hard, Hayesy gets even more lazy, and the entire team is already packing it in. They lose almost all their remaining games and move up in the draft lottery. Nobody is attending games, and the few that do attend are chanting "fire chuck...fire chuck." Comcast is tired of being embarrassed so they finally fire him. The flyers get a top 3 lottery pick and they have a new GM to make the pick and move some bad contracts in the off-season. I can hope right?

After the dust settled from yesterday, and after watching the snow the goalie podcast this morning, I realize that YESTERDAY wasn't that big of a deal. We all overreacted because of what we were told recently. We were told they are "sellers" for the first time in a long time. They finally admitted that they have to go in a different direction and not patch the team like they've done forever. Then we thought we have a guy that has put up good numbers over his career, he's on an expiring contract, teams are handing out draft picks in trades, so it's basically just a foregone conclusion that JVR will be dealt. As the deadline got closer, I was hearing they could get a 3rd or 4th rounder for him. That won't make this team better in the future whatsoever, but I think people were just excited that the flyers are finally sellers, and they'll finally move on from JVR. But why are we excited to move on from JVR? It's the same reason JVR couldn't be moved at the deadline. CF is a horrible GM but not being able to unload JVR yesterday wasn't even close to his worst move/non move. I believe he did what he could yesterday but there were no takers. JVR doesn't fit anywhere at the moment. He definitely doesn't fit on Detroit (I have to think Yzerman was trying to flip him). I remember discussing JVR with my brother a year or two ago. I couldn't stand JVR, but my brother said "hey, he'll get you 25 goals". And this is what separates good GMs from bad ones. A bad GM will say "that guy will get me 25 goals so I will trade for him or give him a big contract, or not trade him". A good GM will say "He'll give me 25 goals, but since I know what I'm looking at with my own two eyes, I know he's not helping my team, so I'm not going to trade for him, I'm not going to give him a big contract, I'm not even going to put him on my playoff roster, and if I do have the chance to trade him during his 25 goal season, I will make it happen" CF did what he could yesterday or for the past weeks or months to unload JVR. Nobody wants that garbage. Chuck basically told us that yesterday without saying the words. He missed the opportunity to get that done a year or two ago. I'm starting to wonder what other move should have/could have been made yesterday to make this team better. He couldn't move Hayes or Provorov or anyone else? Hayes was an all-star and he's having a career year. CF couldn't sweeten the deal with retaining salary and taking on another contract (one that would expire in a year or so hopefully)? Provorov could still help a team...they couldn't do anything there? I think everyone was so focused on unloading JVR for nothing that we all forgot that other deals could have been made but weren't.

I can't believe I just witnessed that trade deadline and the presser after. That couldnt have gone any worse. Just a few things I picked up from the press conference: Either he is completely lying, or he completely threw JVR under the bus. He kept saying that they offered to retain half the salary and take on another contract to make it work. Yet nobody would take a big skilled net front presence like JVR? That's almost impossible. His final statement he mentioned that they need more talent, but they didn't go after talent in the off-season because they had concerns about the team and they wanted to give the young guys a shot. What does that even mean??? Is he saying they knew they would suck, so the didn't get JG, and they wanted their young guys to play and lose? But then he hires probably the only coach in the league that won't let his players be bad enough to lose enough. The whole thing is just amusing.

That's exactly it. I have always loved fighting in hockey. Some people might think I'm a knuckle dragger for that. I hate fighting in today's game though because it's all staged and set up just to get a rise from the crowd. Nobody fights each other because of a bad hit or because they hate the other player. They talk about it and set it up. Then they dance around, grab each other, try to throw half hearted punches, then they tap each other and say "good fight" Nick D is the best example of this. I think Allison actually had a fight the other night and you could tell they were angry.

I do the same. Baseball is different to me though. Baseball isn't about the action on the field during the season. It's about seeing and smelling the grass, hearing the mits and bats, and relaxing with a beer. The playoffs are really the only time real competition kicks in.

I'm glad to see some of us aren't going to watch this garbage. I'm starting to wonder if this is going to become a permanent thing for me though. I used to hate the people that would say "I'm a big hockey fan but I won't really watch until the playoffs". I might be that guy now though even if or when the team is good again. The NHL has a problem and ratings are dropping. The flyers and other teams have been bad before, but I still watched to be entertained. I think I watched every game in 06/07 (?) when they were the worst team in franchise history. I still remember being entertained. The flyers could be down 3 or 4 goals but I'd hang in until the end to see how they'd react. I know how they'll react now though, and it's not something I have to keep watching to see. The league is focused on speed and talent and has lost the element of animosity and physical violence. I can watch every speed and talent highlight on YouTube in less than 10 minutes the next day. There's no "in the moment" emotions that go with those plays, so there's no need to watch them live. 82 games is also way too many in this day and age. In the days of 4 network channels or 100 cable channels that never had anything good on, 82 games was fine. There's just to much out there to entertain me these days. I'm not going to watch 82 games of the same thing night in and night out.

The thing is I'm absolutely fine with what happened against the devils and the skid they've been on lately. This is what this entire year should have been. When they hired torts, didn't get Johnny G, signed Nick D, and made some other questionable moves, I thought it was going to be a down but interesting season, and they might have a shot at Bedard. I thought the flyers would be getting torched every night, torts would be throwing sticks on the ice, and they would be built to beat other teams up physically even when they're getting beat by talent. Instead, torts made this team look better than what it is, they probably have the most boring tough guys I've ever seen, and their lack of talent is really starting to become apparent due to their lack of scoring.

This has been bothering me for a little while now. Maybe I'm an old man. Maybe I'm the no fun police. Maybe I'm Debbie Downer. I went to the Black Friday game. The flyers were getting beat pretty bad by the pens. They scored a meaningless goal late and everyone jumped up like they just scored in OT to win the cup. One guy went to high five me but I stayed seated and just shook my head. Last night, the flyers were getting embarrassed at home by a team worse than them. They were down 5-1 with less than 2 minutes remaining. They scored a meaningless goal to make it 5-2. I watched the replay and most of the arena was jumping up and down with their hands in the air and big smiles on their faces. I know that people just want to have a good time and make the best of it. I went to the Preds game with my daughter a couple weeks ago. I wasn't exactly amped to be at the game, but it was her first game and I wanted to get into it as much as I could. They scored a goal and we celebrated. It was a meaningful goal though early in the game. I don't know. It makes me wonder who is actually going to these games. I feel like ownership doesn't care, and they'll keep putting out this garbage because the fans will still cheer when they score a goal to make it 5-2 late in the game.

I think it's even worse than that. Here is a message I sent to my brother a couple months ago. "I think I did a similar exercise before. The past 20 cup winners, 11 had a 1st overall, 6 had at least a 2nd overall, and 1 had at least a 3rd overall draft pick. The 2 teams that won a cup without a top 3 pick - Detroit in 08 because they could always draft well, and st Louis in 19 because they got on a hot streak and caught lightning in a bottle. It shows how hard it is to win a cup without a top 2 pick. Flyers will never get it done without getting in the top 3."

I think the only way you can compare them is to compare the success of the team. Because as you said, they worked in different eras with different rules. Would Holmgren have the same success in a cap era? We didn't see much of that, but he did some good and some bad. Would Hextall have any success in the non capped era? Who knows, but his eye for talent and ability to sign or trade for any notable players is suspect. About Hextall's draft picks, you just see it differently than I do I guess. Hart is a good goalie. If you're a believer in goalies = success, Hart is a good pick. I don't see it that way though. TK is in his 7th season and hasn't done enough for me. And if I'm listening to 99% of the flyers fanbase, TK should be Marchand by now. He is not. Provorov and Sanheim have glimpses of talent but they have both underperformed. Provorov can eat some minutes but he was supposed to be a scoring machine for a defenseman. Noah Cates??? A 3rd line ceiling player isn't what I use to judge draft success.

Sounds like you are in the heart of Philadelphia. You must watch the same news and listen to the same radio I do. You want flyers news? This is it. This is probably the only place to get it.

I don't want to defend those guys. I know they made dumb moves. I know they haven't managed the cap well. I know the flyers haven't won a cup in 46 years. But I also can't say that any other flyers GM (not that there's been many) has done a better job. In my hockey lifetime, it's Clarke/Holmgren vs Hextall vs Fletcher. Clarke/Holmgren had the seats filled most nights, they gave us teams that were constantly a top 10 team, they brought us many playoff appearances and some playoff wins. Hextall kept some exciting talented players, but for some reason surrounded them with duds. He hired the least exciting coach to ever coach the game. He wasted Giroux's career. His teams success was the definition of inconsistent. And he left us with his top draft picks that have had average at best careers so far. I think we're probably all on the same page with Fletcher. He took a team that wasn't doing too much, and somehow made it worse. Not only did he make moves that were bad, he made moves that make no sense at all. The team has 3 or 4 10 game losing streaks under his belt. They're up against the cap constantly yet they're a bottom 5 team. He has some bad contracts that he can't get rid of. And most importantly to me, the team almost doesn't exist in the eyes of 99% of the sports community in the area. So please don't misunderstand me when I stick up for Holmgren/Clarke. I'm not saying they would be my first choice for GM if I had to pick them off the GM tree. They are just the best out of a bad bunch. Who would be your choice out of the 3? And for the record, I hated the job Hextall did because it wasn't right for the situation the flyers were in. I would hire him in a second if he were available now though. I would like him to trust a team of scouts to judge talent, and he could focus on managing cap and acquiring assets.

No, there really wasn't a plan. They were really loose and daring with the moves they made. Some worked out and some didn't. They did maintain a brand of hockey that was exciting though. I miss those days. I don't post much, but if you have seen some of my posts, I don't really put too much stock in having a great goalie. I think a great goalie can make up for bad performance in front of him (see 2022 flyers), but it will never be sustainable without talent in front of him. On the other hand, the fact that the flyers went to the cup in 2010 with the slop they had in goal, Niemi winning that cup, the penguins winning their cups with a few interchangeable goalies, and teams winning a lot of games with goalies nobody has ever heard of should show you all you need to know. Vasilevskiy is a good goalie, but that's an anomaly, and they have a pretty good team in front of him.

I think the fear of Hayes interfering with what Torts wants to build is legit. I'm not too concerned with it though because I don't think, at least I hope they aren't trying to build with what they have now. This is a bad group of players that I hope isn't around when they do start to rebuild. I like Torts and hope the clock isn't ticking until he is given something to work with. Typically I'd be right with you ready to ship Hayes off somewhere even if I have to retain salary or live with a buyout cap hit for the next ten years. I don't like his game. I think he's lazy. But this year, more than any other year in flyers history, is the year to take your lumps to set up for the future. Nobody is expecting this team to do anything, so there shouldn't be pressure to do anything. If you want to start the rebuild now, you don't do that by retaining salary or attaching long term cap money to a guy that will never help the team. You pay him what he's owed and hope he plays well enough to get taken off your hands. If he doesn't, you pay him until you really need his money for something that will help the team.

I get it...holmgren and clarke made some bad moves, traded young players, and gave away picks during the years they got primeau, forsberg, roenick, and Bryz. But in those seasons, including the years holmgren was a scout for the team in the 90s, they drafted Gagne, Williams, sharp, Carter, Richards, giroux, JVR, and couturier. That's at the same time they got those more notable players by trade or free agency, as well as simmonds, voracek, and schenn. That's a better resume than Hextall and Fletcher combined.

Again, what's the harm in keeping him on the team? Any player that's bad, is good for the team moving forward. Seriously, why would you sacrifice any cap space years down the road to put the team in a better position to get a worse draft pick? Don't get me wrong, I want Hayes's contract off the books, but why buy him out now? If someone will take him, give him away for free. If not, keep him until the team is ready to start progressing forward. They're still going backward.

And why would there be a buyout? What's the harm of him being on the team? He's putting up numbers and hurting the team at the same time. It's a win win in my eyes. Maybe someone will take him off our hands and we will be free of a contract for once. Wouldn't it be nice if the flyers could actually put all of their money into players that play on the team?

I posted shortly after you posted this. I said I hated Hextall at the time because it went against what the flyers were at that time. They "went for it" every year since they got Lindross. They were 4 years off of a cup final. They had some high priced star players that they didn't want to let go. So Hextall's plan/style wasn't right for the 2014 flyers I thinks he might be perfect for the 2022 flyers though. When Hextall took over in 14, he did make some creative moves involving bad contracts. Then he started building through the draft. It went downhill from there but it started well. Imagine if he just drafted sanheim, provorov, TK, Hart, and Gauthier in the past 2 or 3 years and now he has a chance to put the team in a good position to get Bedard. I think we would all be getting excited for that. Instead, the flyers left over from Hextall's drafts are getting older and are probably ready for their next big contract on a contending team. The higher prices vets are underperforming or injured. And Fletcher is adding more bad contracts like he's close to contending for the cup.

I like threads like this. Unfortunately, I can't see them being bottom 3, 5, or maybe even 10. They went through a 10 game losing streak and were still 7 points better than the ducks. JVR and Atkison will get you a few more wins here and there. I think the flyers will be 2 or 3 spots out of a playoff spot. That's not going to do anything for us. I really think they should, and I hope they are, getting a feel for what the demand is for Provorov, TK, and Hart. I'm not saying these players are bad or that I even want them to go. But we don't need them right now, and we will probably lose them by the time we do need them. Right now, they're only contributing to getting a worse draft position. I also don't believe in the importance of a goalie. Hart is playing awesome and keeping the flyers in a lot of these games. On a good team, I don't think he makes much of a difference. But GMs love goalies, so use that to your advantage. As for JVR, Hayes, Risto, Atkinson, or other higher priced vets, I'll honestly take any young NHL player or draft pick for them. Obviously, they should try to get the most value from the trade, but I'll hand any one of those players over if I end up with more players or draft picks than I did before the trade. If I have to throw in picks or retain salary or anything like that, keep them on the team. Let them rot until their contracts expire. Getting nothing in return right now is better than giving up something just to dump a contract. I'm not going to pretend to follow draft prospects to know how good each one is. From the little I do hear, Bedard seems to be a generational player? What's his ceiling...is he McDavid, Crosby, Ovie, Makar, or Matthews? Or is he on a lower tier? Is there anyone below him that will contend for the #1 pick, or is it a Kane/JVR type of draft? If there's no doubt he will be the #1 pick, and he's a generational talent, the flyers HAVE to do whatever it takes to get there. If the flyers have the #2 pick in the draft, give up as many picks and players you need to to get the #1 pick. If you still have Provorov, TK, or Hart, offer all of them in addition to your #2 pick to move up one spot. It doesn't matter...sell out! I don't want another JVR or Patrick...I want the #1!!!!! So to do that, I would be interviewing GMs right now until i find one with the same vision I do. They need someone immediately to come in and start getting creative. I hate Hextall but I would bring him in for this job. They made the mistake of bringing him in when the team was still trying to compete. This position they're in right now is perfect for Hextall. But since he isn't available, get someone else. Fletcher has to be out by trade deadline...or sooner.

I'm right with you. My 9 year old daughter went to the phantoms game with a friend last night. She sent me pictures and videos all night because she was so excited to have interest in something I had a passion for before. It breaks my heart to not have as much interest as I should in what she sent me. I'm glad she had fun but I'm just numb to it right now. I'm taking her to a flyers game in February. I don't care about the team. I will just look at it as a bonding experience for us. Maybe she's becoming a fan at the right time. Things SHOULD only go up from here.

I find myself doing the same. I am losing respect for them as a hockey franchise, a business, and a figure in the community. We all know it's hard to have sustained success in professional sports. But the flyers used to be one of those teams to do it. They had some bad seasons but usually rebounded fairly quickly. They've been average to really bad for 10+ years now, and I don't even think they're at rock bottom yet. As a business, I'm having trouble with their business model. I have a group of about 20 friends that have a black Friday game tradition for about 15 years now. It made me sick to spend money on that game Friday. This team is bad, and they are expected to be one of the worst teams in the league. $90 per ticket!!! Went for something to eat-$24 for cheesesteak and fries!!! Again, I'm sick that I contributed to that. If it wasn't for tradition, I'm not contributing 1 cent to them anymore. And what happened to flyers fans? The team is down 0-4, and the camera keeps showing entire groups of fans standing and dancing. Gritty is hopping from section to section firing up the crowd. I understand making the kids have fun, but flyers fans are really soft these days. When they finally got a goal, everyone jumped for joy and started high fiving. I couldn't get up. A kid tried to high five me but I just shook my head. I know this may be over critical because the organization does give a lot to the community, but something from their charity made me shake my head also. For those that listen to Preston and Steve on wmmr, they know about their campout for hunger fund raiser. I don't think there was one "organization" that donated less than $10k. Even some individuals donated $10k. Low end businesses like five blow donated $10k. What did the flyers charities donate...$5k. It just made me feel like this organization has fallen so far in every aspect.

This is why I am leaning more and more towards hoping they lose a lot of games this year. Even though these kids compete, and maybe they grind out a win here and there, it's not fun. They started the season pretty good, and it did nothing for me. The ONLY way it turns around for me is if they get a young superstar that they can build around for 10+ years. I don't think any teams are willing to get rid of their young superstars, but I think we all know what it will take to get one.

During Torts post-game presser, he seemed to be annoyed that the crowd was booing. As a fan, it's hard to separate losing and lack of effort. His goal is to get his players to give best effort, and I think he's accomplished that. But us fans can't live with effort alone. So I hope those fans are booing more for what they put on the ice rather than what they players out there are giving.

I've been stewing on this since yesterday. A popular theory on why the flyers couldn't land Johnny G is because they couldn't move JVR unless they parted with some draft picks. There's a good number of fans that agree with this strategy. Can I ask what the thought process is behind it? Here's the way I see it and why I was fine parting with any picks to get Johnny G. First off, as a business, it would have paid off. At the beginning of last season they were going in with stud defenseman Ryan Ellis, high energy Cam Atkinson, bruising defenseman Risto, star captain Claude Giroux, selke winner Sean couturier, minute eating defenseman Provorov, up and commer Farbee, and young star goalie Carter Hart. There was some excitement. What are we looking at this season? Ryan Ellis may never play again, Cam Atkinson was OK but not great last year, Risto was hot and cold, the biggest star for the flyers in 15 years is gone, couturier is coming off of injury and I haven't heard anything about him, provorov wasn't happy with his situation and some fans have turned on him, Farabee is out for a while, and Hart was blah and then got injured. If you thought last year's attendance was bad, lookout for this year. Wouldn't a superstar overcome a lot of that? Do you think 75% of the fan base is excited to follow our #5 pick playing college hockey, then slowly making his way up to the NHL where he can make an impact in 3 or 4 years (hopefully)? Or maybe they're more excited that the flyers will pick high again next draft year, and pick up a kid that will make an impact 3 or 4 years after that? Or maybe their sights are set on some 2nd and 3rd rounders that have a chance to get into the NHL as a bottom six player in 3 or 4 years? I think most of us can agree that Conner McDavid is the best player in the league. He's a generational player. The best since Crosby, and he might move ahead of Crosby at some point in his career. In the past 5 "real" seasons, he has the scoring title in 4 of them. In only 2 of those seasons, a player scored more than 115 points (18-19 had 2 players over 115). In 3 of those season, the leading scorer was below 115 points. McDavid had over 115 twice, one season having 116. Johnny G had 115 points this past season. I don't think he'll hit that number again, but to be able to get to that level is pretty amazing. Isn't it a better bet to get a guy that has the ability to be a top 3, 4, 5 player in the league rather than seeing what a first round pick can do? At best, at a very low percentage, that first pick will get to that level. Johnny G has been to that level, and it just happened 2 months ago! You know what you're getting...it's right in front of you! Most of the time, this is just a job for these players. In this rare case, this guy is a flyers fan. Before he knew what the business of hockey was, he wanted to play for the flyers. Now he is a superstar and wants to play for his childhood team and you turn him away because you want to hold onto picks??? That's insanity!

Brent burns is a career -38. Karlsson is -77! +/- isn't everything but I don't know how else to rank the defense a defenseman has.