yave1964

Cute little article Scott, thank you! I was wondering if you would get Jacques Demers, the brilliant (if Illiterate) coach of the Wings and Blues as well as the WHA. Great story behind him.

Thanks again, great read!

Very nice write up.

I am not sold on the Av's this year for several reasons.

First off they are in one of the deepest divisions in Hockey. Lots of very good teams. St. Louis and Chicago seem locks to me to make the postseason, the Wild as well. So the rest, Dallas, Winnipeg, Colorado and Nashville, no weak sister in the bunch, are fighting for maybe one spot.

Second, I am not impressed with the offseason moves. First as to moving O'Reilly, I get it, I love the guy but he seems to be a bit of a clubhouse lawyer and a pain in the rear, moving him probably improves the teams chemistry but on the ice he is brilliant most nights and he will be sorely missed. Losing Stastny the year before and O'Reilly this year, well you cannot lose that kind of talent down the middle without taking a hit.

I am not really impressed with the haul from Buffalo, Zadorov and Grigorenko may be better suited as spear carriers in Denver than the role in Buffalo where they pressed and tried to do too much. But I don't know, they seem like good players but not the type to help a team get over the hump.

Soderberg is over 30, he took forever to come to the NHL and is a 40-45 point guy with an aversion to shooting the puck. He is not O'reilly, not by a long shot.

As for Pickard, I live in Ohio and have watched him play a dozen times or so over the past three years and haven't seen much to convince that he is more than an AHL tender. A hot streak when Varly was injured built him up as something that he is not.

It looks like I am unduly ripping the Avalanche, as a Wings fan that may come natural, lol the rivalry does still burn in me. There are somethings that if they go right the team could make it in as a 7 or 8 seed.

MacKinnon could find a gear and score 85-90 points.

Duchene was off a bit last year, with O'Reilly out of the picture he could step up.

Varlamov could be healthy and start 60 games.

Johnson could be healthy and Barrie could continue to grow.

The Buffalo kids could be better than i think they are.

If all that happens, they are going to be in the mix for a playoff spot, I love MacKinnon this year and have him rated as one of the top breakout candidates of the season, and Duchene should be his usual self again, no idea why he seemed out of sorts all year.

They could contend, I do not think so, just too many good teams around them in the same division and conference but it could happen.

Hiller is excellant - has been under appreciated his entire career.  He would be my choice if I was the Flames GM.  As for Ramo.  I think he is a good serviceable goalie that will be good but never take the team to the next level.  As for Ortio I have good opinions on what I have seen so far.  I am very hesitant to be too high on young goalies.  It is a weird position that takes time and maturing.  I question at this point if anyone could say that Gillies or Ortio are guarantee starters.  I think the Flames would be pumped if one of the two turn out.  This is a great problem for the Flames.  They are not like some teams battling to find one good goalie.  It is a no brainer that Ortio is the backup.  I would keep Hiller, but my gut and insights are telling me Ramo will be the starter and Hiller will be on the move.  Fun, Fun, Fun!

I agree that Hiller is a good goalie who has gotten a bad rep over the years, and of the three Hiller would be my no brainer in net. I am a little less enthused than you are, my word for him is serviceable. As for Ramo, not so much, I see him in the same ilk as Khubodin, just a body nothing more. Ramo in the AHL has been okay but not spectacular. I am high on Gillies but I do agree that at that level he still has multiple hurdles before you can consider him an NHL starting goalie and has a lot to prove, I have watched him a good half a dozen times and never seen him have anything less than a good game, at times brilliant during that stretch. I love the Flames, they are my favorite Western conference team, built strange with most of the talent on the back end and Hartley being the best kid coach in the NHL, the way he has worked with Monahan is outstanding, same with Gaudreau to a lesser extent. Anyway, I would go with Hiller/Ortio and send Ramo back to Europe but I doubt that is what will happen.

Hiller is a body, a middling starter, nothing more. You can win with him in net with a strong supporting cast, kind of Chris Osgood lite.

IMHO Ramo is not even that, sooner or later he is gonna slip back into the KHL never to be heard of again. He can look brilliant at times but is not sound at positioning, he guesses and guesses wrong way too often.

As for Ortio he is an okay prospect but not much to be seen there either, IMHO. Truthfully, I would keep all three and ride the hot hand, none really do much for me for the long term but anyone of them could be the hot hand for a decently long stretch.

Long term I really do love Jon Gillies and I see these other three as stop gap until Gillies with his skill and cockiness arrive likely next season.

PACIFIC:

7. Coyotes. No brainer

6. Canucks. Due for a big fall

5. Oilers. Improved but not this year

4. Sharks. Still trying

3. Kings. In the mix again

2. Flames. Fun team to watch got better

1. Ducks. Best team in Hockey

CENTRAL

7. Avalanche. Did little to improve and lost O'Reilly

6. Jets What goes up must come down

5. Stars. Lots of goals for and against

4. Predators. Don't believe in their centers

3. Wild. See Predators comment

2. Hawks. Don't believe the rumors of their demise

1. Blues. Regular season divas

The Central is so deep and even, every team has a hole but immense talent as well. I could see a case for any team in the division finishing anywhere from first to last.

Wow, I agree with nearly all of these save for just these few.

Start with MA Fleury, 5 years in a row of 2.32 to 2.39 goals against and a number one on a solid contender who will start 55-60 games makes him safe as houses to me.

Halak, to me is a slight risk, far from a lock but I am convinced the Isles are slipping this year.

Not gonna happen. If he is not suspended he will be in a Chicago uniform opening night. Too damn good for the Hawks to trade him AND eat salary or take pennies on the dollar as a return. Just August musings....

Richard DID face a certain racial bias against, not to the extent of a Jackie Robinson or a Roberto Clemente necessarily, but probably not far off. The French Quebec natives have always had a chip on their shoulder, talking of leaving Canada for a reason, they are different and outnumbered and haven't melted into the pot the way that other English speaking whites have. They take pride in their heritage and consider themselves to be as much Franco as anything, and take every sleight personally. I love Quebec, the city and the Province, but they are a different breed up there.

A superstar talent with a ten cent head, a perception of himself that he was Gretzky or some such. At one point he had a charity that he was donating money to in Ottawa that he pulled his backing from because they refused (rightly) to put his mother on the board in spite of all language barriers. Best forgotten.

That was a screw up by the league. Bure was 18 at the time of that draft, so he was eligible. That has my curiosity piqued now, so I may have to research that.

 

IIRC, Bure did play with Fedorov in Russia. I think the two of them and Mogilny made up one of the lines for the CSKA Moscow team before Fedorov's defection. I do think that their styles would have meshed well. Fedorov is one of the best two-way guys in the history of hockey, and he was well-rounded offensively too. He could score, he could set up goals, and was obviously great defensively. That last one would have gone very well with Bure and his Devil may care attitude on defense. With a guy like Fedorov playing next to him, he wouldn't have had to care.

 

I also agree with you about Bowman and Bure. I think that Bure likely would have ended up in Bowman's dog house, so I don't know if any of that would have come to fruition if Bowman still came along in an alternate timeline. All in all, though, I'd definitely say things worked out well for the Wings. That said, I can't help but wonder what if the Russian Five had been created a couple of years earlier. Would it have made any difference in 1995? Could they have given Detroit a boost to make the Finals that year more competitive, or maybe even turned it with a jump on the series?

One of the most amazing drafts of all time, Lidstrom and Federov both going to the Hall of fame this year. Sillinger played 1,000 games, so did Dallas Drake. And Konstantinov and what might have been. If the Wings had gotten Bure it would have been the absolute no brainer best draft in history, as it is you could still make the argument.

True story, the Wings were prepared to draft Bure late in the draft but when they reached the podium they were told he was underage and not eligible. Instead, a round later Vancouver was allowed to put him up causing all kinds of heartburn and ire from the Wings, threats of a lawsuit and more. It came to naught, just a royal screw up by the league.

But can you imagine Bure growing up on Federov's wing? No doubt in the world it would have been the making of the greatest second line in the history of the game. Personally I think Bure would have clashed with Bowman, but who knows, the Wings may have won a cup or two and not ever signed bowman or traded for Shanny. One of those big what ifs in the history of the game.

In 1967 the NHL still had six teams, by 1975 between the NHL and the WHA there were 29. The Caps and Scouts were given the absolute worst talent pool of any two teams joining the league ever.

Worst expansion in the history of the game. Between the WHA raiding the league for players, both the NHL and the minors to the lowest level of all time. And then you throw in that the NHl was in its third expansion in just a few years, it created two of the worst teams in the games history, the Capitals and the Kansas City Scouts.

Look at some of the plus/minus on the Caps, I have written about this wretched club in here before, they were a train wreck. Three coaches. One road win.

Bill Mikkelson in only 59 games set an all time record of minus 82. 11 other players were minus 40 or worse. A total of 29 players were double digits in the minus category.

The team was dead last in scoring with 181 goals and dead last with 446 against. Their ratio of 265 goals more against is a record that will never be eclipsed. Ever.

Worst expansion ever, but I love teams like this and the Scouts.

Sean monahan and bo horvat absolutely over a good half the list, especially Monahan.

Lanny Mac with his trademark 'Stache was absolutely made for the red sweater of the Flames but I still always see him in a Leaf sweater as well. Some pretty funny stories out there about his wild all night card games with Tiger Williams and the boys in Brian McFarland books, Mac and Williams seem to be two of his favorites, they are regulars in all of his writings.

A deserving hofer but IMHO not as good as a lot of people seem to remember, warm and fuzzy memories of the way that he went out kind of make up for the fact that he didn't age well.

Wow, glad to see someone else believe in what Bowman has done in Chicago. Any way you slice it he still has Kane, Toews, Keith and Hossa and a ton of talented players as a supporting cast. And Columbus went 15-1-1 down the stretch.

My Picks:

WEST

Anaheim

Chicago

St. Louis

Wild

Flames

After that, a mares nest of Dallas, Colorado, Vancouver, Kings, Winnipeg, Nashville and San Jose are all capable of claiming any of the final three spots. IMHO only Edmonton and the 'Yotes are officially eliminated before opening day.

EAST

Lightning

Canadiens

Wings

Jackets

Rangers

Isles

Penguins

Capitals

7 teams seen locks or nearly so. The balance of power is shifting to the East after the West having a stranglehold for years.

Other contenders are Ottawa, Florida, the Flyers and MAYBE Boston. A big maybe.

Out of contention before the year starts are Toronto, Buffalo, Carolina and New Jersey although Buffalo and Carolina are making strides in the right direction.

Nice expansion era.

One of the things that has always fascinated me was the first three years post expansion, the new teams were all in a division with the old clubs all in their own. For three years in a row led by coach Scotty Bowman,sniper Red Berenson, old time goalies Jacques Plante and Glenn Hall, the nasty hard hitting bordering on dirty Plager brothers and a bunch of retreads and cast offs the Blues made the Stanley Cup Finals every year for the first three years of their existence. Yes they were swept in all three but they made it three in a row and when Bowman was let go by the Blues the Canadiens were quick to snap him up and the rest as they say is history.

Great write up as always sir! I always enjoy the blogs. I found this one to be the most informative for me personally of any that you have had in to date! Thanks again.

Nice drive down memory lane Scott. A lot of folks forgot the story of Colleen and her HUGE part in how the three Howe's ended up playing together in 'Howeston. The first lady of Hockey for awhile.

 

BTW Bill Dineen was given the nickname 'Foxy' by Gordie after his second year in the league when he bragged in the locker room that he had talked notorious skinflint Jack Adams into a 500 dollar raise to 7,500 a year. Gordie let him brag about it for awhile and then told Dineen that the league minimum had went up to 7,500 that year as the locker room roared. The sobriquet 'Foxy' was hung on Dineen for his negotiating skills and followed him around for life.

 Speaking of Dineen, he had quite the clan as well, three of his sons, Gord, Kevin and Pete all played in the NHL. So two former teammates from the fifties had a total of five sons with NHL careers.

Nice one Scott. I was actually thinking of Claude the Fraud Lemieux a lot lately and whether he deserves a crack at the Hall. Tiger, while not a HOFer on his best day was a nasty bit of work, like you pointed out he and Hunter were rugged nasty players who could score. Williams is in the top of the list of all time hated players who could really play, Lemieux while not the pugilist that Williams was a bit of a better scorer and I would rank him slightly higher, but Tiger was a heck of a player in his own right.

The Avco trophy was rewarded to the winner of the championship, named for the Avco insurance agency who paid a whopping five hundred bucks for the naming rights.

 The first championship was won by the Whalers over the Jets in five games. Before the fifth game the league realized that they had no trophy to present, a mad scramble ensued in which for twenty nine dollars they purchased a large golfing trophy and took the Golf guy off the top. True story, that was the original Avco cup. The league ended up with three trophies awarded over the years, one is at the Hall of fame in Toronto and the other two are scattered to the wind.

You are in my wheelhouse now big boy, the WHA is a love of mine. I think that I wrote to you before about my autograph and card collection, I literally have every card printed from the WHA era including the Quaker Oats posters that they printed one year in lieu of cards. Find an old timer and have them tell you what they are, lol. 

 

  Haskin actually got an agreement from the other nine owners to split the cost of Hull's million dollar signing bonus equally, stating his coming would be good for the league. In the end, all but three reneged, they for the most part didn't have that kind of money to spend on a player who was not on their team, and Haskins and three others split the cost.

 

  A lot of people derided the league as a sort of 'super AHL' especialy when guys like Ron Ward who scored 2 goals in Vancouver the year before managed a whopping 51 with the New York Raiders in the leagues first year. But in truth, they were probably somewhere between the NHL and the AHL, with the gap closing every year as the WHA raided Juniors stars, ignoring the cozy archaic agreement still in place between the NHL and juniors, the WHA stealing the Howe boys for starters and then Gretzky, Messier, Goulet, Ramage, Liut, Linesman, Ramage, Hartsburg, Napier, Gingras, and so many more were pirated away from Juniors.

 

  And Lets not forget that Hull was not the only former NHL star to shine in the WHA. Frank Mahovlich for one, Pie McKenzie, Derek Sanderson played a whopping eight games and was given a million dollars to go away. Bernie Parent refused the lowball offer from Ballard and the Leafs and played one year in the WHA before going to the Flyers. Paul Henderson of the summit series fame played forever, as did Dave Keon. The Leafs were among the hardest hit franchises as their owner, Ballard was unbelievably cheap. Either the Leafs or tightwad Charlie O Finley and his Seals. Gerry Cheevers starred in Cleveland. J.C. Tremblay starred in Quebec as did Marc Tardif.

 You mentioned the Euro effect, the first defector beyond the Iron Curtain, Vaclav 'big Ned' Nedomansky played for the Toronto Toros and then Birmingham, in fact he was part of the first and only actual trade between the WHa and the NHL, being dealt to the Red Wings by Birmingham for Steve Durbano and Dave Hanson because Birmingham was going giddy for the rough stuff and wanted two more knuckle draggers.

 Anders Hedberg and Ulfie Nilsson came to Winnipeg from Sweden and formed possibly the greatest line in the history of Hockey that was not in the NHL (some Sovietfans will disagree). "Back then, players went up and down their lanes, the center in the middle looking left and right, what we did, Anders and I crisscrossed and zigzagged, and Ulfie found the open man. we wore people down with our style, a style that everyone in the NHL has adapted since then." Hull also stated it was in their first ever practice that the three of them clicked together. Winnipeg who was the most successful franchise in the history of the league always was innovative, first signing Hull and then the Euros, Hedberg, Nilsson, Kent Nilsson (no relation) and Dan Labraatan being just some of them. Their roster was usually fifty percent European at a time when there might have been a dozen total in the NHL.

  Banana blades. At a time when the NHL only allowed a small curve on the stick, the WHA allowed, even encouraged players to experiment with heating the wood and creating a bend in the blade that allowed for some amazing slap shots. The problem was a lot of these career AHLers could shoot it but had no idea where the puck was going. Fun stuff.

  And cool nicknames. Psycho Durbano. Bad News Bilideau. Frank 'Never' Beaton (although later in his career his nickname changed to sometimes and then to often). They didn't stop with raiding players the most marketable Ref in the game was Bill Friday who was a showboat on the ice, the league stole him away. They experimented (briefly) with orange pucks. They played in some of the worst venues in the history of hockey (In Chicago,mused coach Jacques Demers, when the winds were blowing south the blood and the feces aroma from the stockyards was so strong that it permanently settled into whatever clothes you were wearing) and some of the best and biggest barns that were ahead of their time as well.

  Franchises always on the move, changing cities to avoid collectors. A roof collapsing mid season on the Whalers home arena. A future long time NHL ref being a tough guy for the Stingers. A teenage Gretzky centering a line with fifty year old Gordie Howe in an all star game. Doug Harvey staying on the wagon for one last year as he taught Mark and Marty the subtle nuances of playing defense in the pros. So many stories, it goes on and on.

 Thanks Scott for bringing this subject up, it is a long time favorite of mine. If you get the chance pick up a copy of the Rebel League, it is well written, very few factual errors and tells a lot of the rich history of the game in a concise manner. Thanks again.

I think you're right. I think most people felt like we were losing -- or even being embarrassed -- in the Cold War, and the international scene as a whole, and the Miracle on Ice was a shot in the arm. I don't want to belittle the cultural significance of the 1980 squad, because they were just what the country needed, but as a hockey accomplishment, 1960 was just as big. It's all in the prism through which things are viewed.

I could not agree more Scott, the Hockey significance may have even been bigger when you consider:

There were not two dozen players in the NHL in 1960 from the United States. It was a Canadian dominated sport at a pro level and a Euro dominated one at an international one. For nearly every single one of these players in 1960, this Olympic was it, nowhere to go with their game, it was off to selling insurance or working at GM. Hockey in 1980 was still largely Canadian dominated but more and more USA players were seeping into the NHL and the training ground of college was much more established. In 1960, it was just short of a miracle that they were able to field a competitive team. If anything, to your original point, the 1960 victory may have been a bigger miracle.

Thanks Scott, great read. Really a different world in 1960 compared to 1980, we were feeling defeated and lethargic as a country coming out of Nixon and Carter's seventies, compared to the warm and fuzzy IKE years in the fifties, Hockey gave us a reason as a country to feel good about ourselves again at Lake Placid. USA! and Jim Craig wrapped in a flag, the hockey really was secondary to beating the Russians at something, anything really. 1960 we still believed in ourselves, the Gold medal was nice, a story for a few days and then followed by more nice stories about how nice it was to be from the good ole' USA. Shame really, those kids worked their tails off in 1960 and deserve to be remembered.

The Stastny family was a wonderful story but in truth Vaclav Nedomansky who came from Czechoslovakia and signed with the Toronto Toros and played in Birmingham in the WHA before being part of the first trade between the WHA and the NHL when he was traded to the Detroit Red Wings in 1978. Big Ned was a true power forward who was past his prime before he came over, but still had several top tier seasons.