Should a Defenseman Have Been a Hart Finalist Last Season?

[ScottM]

 

A while back, I started a thread asking when a goalie should win the Hart Trophy, and the consensus more or less seemed to be that it should only happen when he really stands out and no skaters do. Even so, that Carey Price was the right man to get the trophy seems to be more or less accepted, and I find it hard to argue. My personal feeling is that the only real reason that Ovi was a finalist was the fact that he led the league in goals (and I know I'm not alone in that), and no one really seems to feel that Tavares was that strong of a candidate either.

 

That brings me ask this: With such a weak class of forwards this year, should we have seen a defenseman among the Hart finalists this year? I want to look at a couple of things that make me say that the answer is probably yes. First, let's look at stats among the three Norris finalists.

 

Erik Karlsson: 21 goals, 45 assists, 66 points, +7

P.K. Subban: 15 goals, 45 assists, 60 points, +21

Drew Doughty: 7 goals, 39 assists, 46 points, +3

 

To be fair, I should point out that Doughty is more of a defensive specialist, so his stats won't like quite as impressive on the surface. I'd say he's the Nicklas Lidstrom to Karlsson and Subban's Orr and Bourque. I say that to say that he belongs much more than a first glance would indicate. With the Art Ross Trophy winner only scoring 87 points, and only five players total breaking 80, there are some impressive offensive stats above, even for a guy that's much more well known for his defense.

 

Secondly, let's look at the role these guys play for their teams. Karlsson is the undisputed leader of the Senators. Where he goes, the team goes. He had a rocky start, and the team followed. He turned his game around and played world beater, and the team followed. Subban played for a team with very little offense. He may be overshadowed by Price, but it was the combination of the Habs' goaltending and play on the back end that won the division for them. Doughty did an excellent job anchoring the Kings' defense in the absence of Slava Voynov. I'm not sure that many people realize what a big load he had on him last season, but he handled it more than admirably. He had to be THE guy on the L.A. blue line, and did an outstanding job.

 

All things considered, I think one of these guys probably should have been a Hart finalist. They had the required combination of outstanding play and importance to their teams. Is anyone else with me here?

[WordsOfWisdom]

I'd go a step farther and say that defencemen should be winning the Hart trophy right now given the lack of scoring in the NHL.  The "D" plays a much larger role in their team's success or failure than any one forward. 

 

Definitely a goalie or a defenceman for the Hart every single year until we start seeing some offence.

[ScottM]

I'd go a step farther and say that defencemen should be winning the Hart trophy right now given the lack of scoring in the NHL.  The "D" plays a much larger role in their team's success or failure than any one forward. 

 

Definitely a goalie or a defenceman for the Hart every single year until we start seeing some offence.

 

You know, I've thought about that side of things some recently, and in a strange way, I think the fact that the game is more defensive now leads voters to shy away from defensemen even more that normal. When so few goals are scored, that makes 50 goal seasons such as Ovi's last year stand out even more. Since he won the goal-scoring race by 10, it stands out even more, hence the finalist status in what I'd argue was a somewhat weaker season for him overall.

 

If we want to expand this discussion a little more, where should Nick Lidstrom have ranked in the voting in 2006, 2007, & 2008? He finished seventh, sixth, and fourth those seasons respectively, and I have a hard time ranking him that low. He was less likely to rank highly because of his more defensive style, and he likely ranked higher than normal in those seasons because they were among his best offensive seasons.

[yave1964]

Not last year, some years yes, but not last season. Karlsson was brilliant but truthfully he was not even the primary reason his team made the postseason (see Hamburgler) although he was damn good.

Doughty a few years ago had a good case, Keith in Chicago three seasons ago, Karlsson may yet have his best day and deserve a top three spot but with all due respect there were a half a dozen candidates I would have taken ahead of him last year. Price, Tavares, Crosby,Voracek, Stamkos, Ovie and Benn even in a year where forwards did not really have that guy who stood out.

[WordsOfWisdom]

You know, I've thought about that side of things some recently, and in a strange way, I think the fact that the game is more defensive now leads voters to shy away from defensemen even more that normal. When so few goals are scored, that makes 50 goal seasons such as Ovi's last year stand out even more. Since he won the goal-scoring race by 10, it stands out even more, hence the finalist status in what I'd argue was a somewhat weaker season for him overall.

 

That's an interesting point. If it's a standout season where one player is head and shoulders above his peers, I'm all for awarding a Hart trophy. Otherwise, I'd be looking at the "D" and of course the goaltending during a low scoring era. 

[ScottM]

Not last year, some years yes, but not last season. Karlsson was brilliant but truthfully he was not even the primary reason his team made the postseason (see Hamburgler) although he was damn good.

Doughty a few years ago had a good case, Keith in Chicago three seasons ago, Karlsson may yet have his best day and deserve a top three spot but with all due respect there were a half a dozen candidates I would have taken ahead of him last year. Price, Tavares, Crosby,Voracek, Stamkos, Ovie and Benn even in a year where forwards did not really have that guy who stood out.

 

Hammond played a huge role in the turnaround, but so did Karlsson. Honestly, with it all in the rearview mirror for a few months, and the emotions having subsided, while both were very vital, I think it would have been harder taking out Karlsson than any other one player -- Hammond included -- simply for the leadership aspect. He certainly had quite a debut as captain.

 

Anyway, I'd be interested in your take as a Wings fan about the years I mentioned with Lidstrom. As great as he was, there certainly should have been some years he could have at least been a finalist, right?

[yave1964]

Hammond played a huge role in the turnaround, but so did Karlsson. Honestly, with it all in the rearview mirror for a few months, and the emotions having subsided, while both were very vital, I think it would have been harder taking out Karlsson than any other one player -- Hammond included -- simply for the leadership aspect. He certainly had quite a debut as captain.

 

Anyway, I'd be interested in your take as a Wings fan about the years I mentioned with Lidstrom. As great as he was, there certainly should have been some years he could have at least been a finalist, right?

Ooof, Finalist maybe, winner no.

D-men like Lidstrom have their own award, the Norris which is given to the best defender in the game. Much more often that not anymore it goes to the best offensive d-man in the game, kind of taking away from the award in general.

I cannot look at Lidstroms stats and see him comparing to a 50 goal, 110 point forward for the Hart. That said, much more often than not he was the Wings MVP and the reason they made the postseason.

Now take a defenseman such as your boy their in Ottawa, it is a little bit of a different case.

Lets say Karlsson gets some forwards around him with some offensive acumen, and his numbers go up a bit and the Sens become a playoff contender, not only a contender but a team that is in the conversation for the Eastern conference finals.

So lets pick a name, John Tavares and say he leads the league with 100 points. Lets say Ovie scores 55 goals to lead the league.

Karlsson, in his best years IMHO is quite capable of putting up 30-55-85 type of numbers and if so, absolutely he would deserve to be in the conversation for the Hart. A guy like Lidstrom whose numbers were usually along the lines of 12-45-57 or some such would not even merit a passing glance. But Karlsson is capable of monster numbers from the back end, not only leading his team in scoring like Weber usually does in Nashville but actually being in the top ten of the league which in todays game is nearly unheard of. That is partially why i was so furious with Matt Cooke a few years ago, you can hit a generational talent sure, but not stomp their ankle with your blade. I do think of Karlsson as a generational talent, a man among boys at his position and in his peak years, if the forwards are down and he carries the team, not just to sneaking past Boston for the final spot but to a 110 or so point season and he has his best years, he would deserve to be mentioned. With apologies to Lidstrom, stats are not subtle enough to notice all the little things that he did right, he never got turned around, never out of position, just a perfect defender with the most accurate shot ever, not super hard, not a cannon but accurate, good for 15 or so pretty goals a year, but the things he did were not the things that the voters for the Hart even consider, and I am okay with it. Kind of like pitchers with the Cy Young award he had his own award and you really have to stand up and make people notice as a pitcher to get into the MVP conversation. Same thing.

[ScottM]

@yave1964 Honestly. I'm not so sure that Lidstrom was the league's best player some years, but like you say, his stats don't look like it. The thing is, even if I believe it to be the case, it's extremely hard to make that case to someone else. It really is an apple to oranges comparison, isn't it? I really think the fact that Lidstrom finished as highly as he did in those seasons speaks volumes to his skill.

 

As for Karlsson, as excited as I am about the team's season as a whole, I'm also highly interested to see what he can do personally. He's now surrounded by a team of guys that no longer think they're bad, but rather, know they can play. If he has an entire season in which both he and the team are playing well, and he's not dealing with the after effects of that injury (as I believe he was in 2013-14), he may stun the league with what he does.

[GUSTER12345]

ABSOLUTELY.