The never ending saga of the Flyers goaltending

[OccamsRazor]

11 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

More or less the rest of THAT team went to game 7 of the ECF's the following year with Robert Esche.  Robert Esche.  

Roman was the problem.  And NOT because he couldn't stop the puck. He was amazing at stopping the puck.  But saying a goalie's job is to "Just stop the puck" is simplistic and inadequate.  If stopping the puck was all it were about the Flyers would have won 4 cups with Roman and 2 with Bryzgalov.  Both were very very good at stopping the puck.  

 

 

 

I'm confused the year before it was Esche and Roman? You were talking about Boucher who was in Phoenix?? I'm confused which year it was.

[OccamsRazor]

11 minutes ago, King Knut said:

you waive him.

 

What and have 4 million in dead money?? Hell no. You don't sign his whining ass!

[radoran]

16 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

The main reason i would be against it as a 4 year deal and Mason has already said he doesn't want no part of a tandem.

 

So what do you do 2 years into it when say he gets outplayed in camp by Hart (just for arguments sake) and is unseated now you have a goalie whom is a backup (no less an expensive one) and is a disgruntled employee.

 

Sure they can trade him and get fleeced because they would have no leverage for a 30 year old goalie who has lost his job and is under contract for 2 more year at 5 mill per..they would have to eat salary to get it done more like half.

 

No thanks. See that before....since they won't be a Cup contender next or the next i go the cheap patch work route for a goalie.

 

Might not be the popular way but it would be my choice!

 

What I do it set up the contract so it's paying something like 6.5-5.5-4.5-3.5 and/or put a lot of the money into signing bonuses and make the back end of the deal more palateable from a trade perspective should one of the HTGP pan out and steal the crease. Obviously there's no NT/NMC involved.

 

I'd be more comfortable going that route than going with cheap patch work for a few years in the hopes that one of the HTGP steps up and takes the job.

 

Further, while I'm not in the "mortgage the future to win now" category, I'm not in the "let's be conclusively mediocre" camp, either.

 

Either this core of VeeGees, Simmonds, Couturier, Schenn, etc. is going to actually do something or they blew up a Cup Final team for, effectively, nothing.

 

Basically, I don't expect anything to happen until they find out if Neuvirth gets plucked up Vegas or not. And it may be academic if a Calgary or Vancouver backs up a six year deal for Mason.

[King Knut]

2 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I'm confused the year before it was Esche and Roman? You were talking about Boucher who was in Phoenix?? I'm confused which year it was.

 

The year Following Roman's complete breakdown on the ice, the goalie who took them to game 7 of the ECF's was Esche. 

 

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

3 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

What I do it set up the contract so it's paying something like 6.5-5.5-4.5-3.5 and/or put a lot of the money into signing bonuses and make the back end of the deal more palateable from a trade perspective should one of the HTGP pan out and steal the crease. Obviously there's no NT/NMC involved.

 

I'd be more comfortable going that route than going with cheap patch work for a few years in the hopes that one of the HTGP steps up and takes the job.

 

Further, while I'm not in the "mortgage the future to win now" category, I'm not in the "let's be conclusively mediocre" camp, either.

 

Either this core of VeeGees, Simmonds, Couturier, Schenn, etc. is going to actually do something or they blew up a Cup Final team for, effectively, nothing.

 

Basically, I don't expect anything to happen until they find out if Neuvirth gets plucked up Vegas or not. And it may be academic if a Calgary or Vancouver backs up a six year deal for Mason.

 

Dear God i don't think i can ok Mason for 6.5 mill. Just can't do it. Count me out. I would find another way.

[King Knut]

2 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

What and have 4 million in dead money?? Hell no. You don't sign his whining ass!

 

Well this is sort of why I don't think it makes a ton of sense for either side.  I'd sign him for 3 years at similar to his salary now.
I'm also fine trying to bag Anders Nilsson or Peter Budaj (despite his age he played 60 damn games this year and was pretty good on two terrible teams). And just really bank on the kids.  Worst case scenario, all 5 are busts and you have to go goalie shopping in 4 years.

 

The only problem with that tack (and I admit it's a risk) is that I believe this team gets significantly better this year and downright competitive in 2-3 (well within the window of Sandstrom and Hart taking over).  So the question is, do you risk icing an otherwise competitive team with a sub par goalie in a Nilsson or Johnson or Budaj or whoever?  Will they really be sub par?  Will Mason have been a better choice for those intervening years?

 

It's the debate.

[radoran]

2 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

The year Following Roman's complete breakdown on the ice, the goalie who took them to game 7 of the ECF's was Esche.

 

"complete breakdown" being his 2.14/.909 in the playoffs that season?

 

Or was the "complete breakdown" an offense that scored more than two goals never against the Senators in the playoffs?

 

Asking for a friend

[OccamsRazor]

3 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

The year Following Roman's complete breakdown on the ice, the goalie who took them to game 7 of the ECF's was Esche. 

 

 

 

 

So how does Bouch get into it??? He was there in 2001-02? The following year it was Czech and Esche.

 

Hell i forgot what we were even discussing so i'm done before it starts. You've made up your mind. 

[King Knut]

1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Dear God i don't think i can ok Mason for 6.5 mill. Just can't do it. Count me out. I would find another way.

 

Why are we so hung up on numbers?  WE can't stand paying a guy 6.5 million now even though it only affects our cap hit at around 5 million?  It's just the principle of the thing I guess.  Cap wise, it makes no difference and has no impact on the team, it simply makes him easier to trade later on.  It's a sound idea.  

I'm just not sold on the idea that Mason makes us measurably better than some cheaper options out there and moreover, I'm highly not sold that someone else won't offer him a better deal.

[radoran]

Just now, OccamsRazor said:

 

Dear God i don't think i can ok Mason for 6.5 mill. Just can't do it. Count me out. I would find another way.

 

The actual money doesn't matter. It's all the cap hit and then the trade value and buyout price. Comcast has more money than God and if they need to overpay to get a good deal for the team, bully for them!

 

Is Mason a $6.5M goalie? No. Is he a $5M goalie? Arguable.

 

I think, personally, $5M is on the high side so I'm just going with some round numbers.

 

Again, I don't expect Mason in the crease for the Flyers next season. Just examining ways it could happen (because it could). I honestly expect Calgary to make a significant play for him and take the decision out of Hextall's hands (because there aren't a lot of great goalie options out there).

 

But the prospect of a tandem of Neuvirth and a guy with a 2.92 GAA in the AHL or an 19-year-old fresh from the WHL next season doesn't give me the warm fuzzies.

[OccamsRazor]

1 minute ago, King Knut said:

 

Why are we so hung up on numbers?  WE can't stand paying a guy 6.5 million now even though it only affects our cap hit at around 5 million?  It's just the principle of the thing I guess.  Cap wise, it makes no difference and has no impact on the team, it simply makes him easier to trade later on.  It's a sound idea.  

I'm just not sold on the idea that Mason makes us measurably better than some cheaper options out there and moreover, I'm highly not sold that someone else won't offer him a better deal.

 

 

Mainly because i just don't think Mason is mentally strong enough for this young team.

 

He is as fragile mentally as Neuvy's wonky groin and knee....one question mark in goal is all i can stand for one season.

 

I pass. I'd take Johnson at a lower rate than Mason at 6.5mill. Even Bud-die!!! Before Mase. I would just take Mason over Bernier!  

[OccamsRazor]

2 minutes ago, radoran said:

Is Mason a $6.5M goalie? No.

 

There saved me the trouble. Next question! I go Chad Johnson 1st.

[radoran]

3 minutes ago, King Knut said:

I'm just not sold on the idea that Mason makes us measurably better than some cheaper options out there and moreover, I'm highly not sold that someone else won't offer him a better deal.

 

Agree 1000%.

 

I'm just curious what these "cheaper options" are out there. Bernier, for example, made more than Mason last season.

 

And the first person that mentions Billy Elliott gets it.

[OccamsRazor]

3 minutes ago, radoran said:

I honestly expect Calgary to make a significant play for him and take the decision out of Hextall's hands

 

 

From this board to God's ears!

[King Knut]

3 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

"complete breakdown" being his 2.14/.909 in the playoffs that season?

 

Or was the "complete breakdown" an offense that scored more than two goals never against the Senators in the playoffs?

 

Asking for a friend

 

You're refusing to see the point for a friend is what you're doing.  

 

I'm talking about gamed 5 and 6 when he gave up 4 goals on 16 shots and 5 goals on 30 shots and threw a tantrum on the ice directed at his bench.  

 

They added Pitkanen and Zhamnov and removed Roman and went to the ECFs the following year.  

 

 

[King Knut]

1 minute ago, radoran said:

 

Agree 1000%.

 

I'm just curious what these "cheaper options" are out there. Bernier, for example, made more than Mason last season.

 

And the first person that mentions Billy Elliott gets it.

 

I like Budaj and Nilsson.  Johnson is a better option than he who shall not be named, and both are being discarded by an inferior defensive team who will not really be enhanced by Mason alone.  I would have been okay with Bernier.  He was only making more because Toronto gave him a good contract to be their starter.  I don't think he necessarily makes as much on his new deal.  However that Nelson Mandela thing really changed my opinion.  I do not need to deal with another moron or head case or space case or whatever the hell he is.  NO THANK YOU.

 

Supposition is that Hextall likes him because of their time in LA together, but Hextall doesn't strike me as that kind of a GM.  Hakstol likes his guys, but Hextall doesn't seem to have gone out of his way to acquire anyone who he scouted for the Kings to my knowledge.  

[OccamsRazor]

10 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

You're refusing to see the point for a friend is what you're doing.  

 

I'm talking about gamed 5 and 6 when he gave up 4 goals on 16 shots and 5 goals on 30 shots and threw a tantrum on the ice directed at his bench.  

 

They added Pitkanen and Zhamnov and removed Roman and went to the ECFs the following year.  

 

 

 

 

They also added Timander, Malakhov and Danny Markov and didn't have pylon Chris Therien out there. 

[radoran]

Just now, OccamsRazor said:

 

There saved me the trouble. Next question! I go Chad Johnson 1st.

 

That 2.59/.910 is a real upgrade from 2.66/.908 isn't it?

 

Johnson/Neuvirth - because the Sabres, Flames and Islanders didn't want them.

 

2 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

You're refusing to see the point for a friend is what you're doing.  

 

I'm talking about gamed 5 and 6 when he gave up 4 goals on 16 shots and 5 goals on 30 shots and threw a tantrum on the ice directed at his bench.  

 

They added Pitkanen and Zhamnov and removed Roman and went to the ECFs the following year. 

 

Oh, I remember it well. Too well. I was shouting at them as well.

 

I get the whole thing about mentally unstable goalies, but if your offense if a fragile bunch of pansies who blame the goalie (or the coach) when they can't score more than two goals a game (or two goals in a series), it ain't just the goalie that's the problem.

 

They added a lot more than Pitkanen and Zhamnov (who only played 20 games in the regular season) and were driven by desperation from the Recchis, Roenicks, LeClairs, Amontes, etc. that knew this was their last grab at the apple before the lockout.

[OccamsRazor]

Just now, radoran said:

 

That 2.59/.910 is a real upgrade from 2.66/.908 isn't it?

 

 

You're looking at the wrong numbers.

 

I'm looking at the price tag.

 

Get the same performance at a fraction of the price and more more mental fortitude i'm betting too.

 

And after playing in Buffalo, NYI and Calgary he'll be more than likely happy in Philly for the time being.

[radoran]

1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said:

You're looking at the wrong numbers.

 

I'm looking at the price tag.

 

Get the same performance at a fraction of the price and more more mental fortitude i'm betting too.

 

And after playing in Buffalo, NYI and Calgary he'll be more than likely happy in Philly for the time being.

 

"more mental fortitude" from a guy who couldn't beat out Billy Elliott in the Calgary crease?

 

Good luck with that.

 

I saw too too much of Johnson when he was with Buffalo. That said, I'm sure he'd be thrilled to come here.

 

Sean Burke was, once, too.

[OccamsRazor]

4 minutes ago, radoran said:

Johnson/Neuvirth - because the Sabres, Flames and Islanders didn't want them.

 

We'll he went 22-16-4 2.36 gaa 920% 3 shutouts. No too shabby. How do we know Johnson didn't want to go somewhere else?

[OccamsRazor]

2 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

"more mental fortitude" from a guy who couldn't beat out Billy Elliott in the Calgary crease?

 

Good luck with that.

 

I saw too too much of Johnson when he was with Buffalo. That said, I'm sure he'd be thrilled to come here.

 

Sean Burke was, once, too.

 

 

Oh yeah you'd rather hand 6.5mill to the guy who lost his job to a former Sabre goalie in Neuvy!

 

NICE!!!!

 

Keep tryin that till it works for you!!!

 

HAHA!!!!

 

 

[King Knut]

13 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

So how does Bouch get into it??? He was there in 2001-02? The following year it was Czech and Esche.

 

Hell i forgot what we were even discussing so i'm done before it starts. You've made up your mind. 

 

In '01 and '02.

 

Roman had an implosion every playoff series he ever played for the Flyers.  

 

in '01, after 4 games decided by one goal and 1 game the Flyers won by 2, Roman coughed up 5 goals on 9 shots. Boucher came in relief and gave up 3 more on 14 shots, but the Flyers were down 5-0 3 minutes into the second.  The game was over.  

 

In the '02 playoffs the Flyers could literally not score a goal to save their lives.   This series was the epitome of the kind of play I'm talking about.  Anyone who watched it will probably remember, but it was just horribly ugly.  The Flyers could literally not make it across the red line.  The Senators just had them shut down and pinned into their own zone the whole time.

 

The weird part was the Flyers didn't give up an inordinate amount of shots.  Patrick Lalime faced about as many shots as the Flyers goalies did.  Both teams were running extremely stingy defensive systems, but while the Flyers didn't allow many shots, or even many quality shots, the shots they managed to get were even lower quality poorer percentage shots.  They couldn't get out of their own zone because there was no puck control in their own zone.  Neither team could control it because of Roman's style and his inability to swallow or control rebounds.  Play in the Senators end was much more relaxed and controlled because Lalime managed to calm things down and get the puck to his D men when the Flyers perimeter shots finally came in on him.  

 

After Game 3 (I believe was when) Boucher suggested in a post game interview implied the problem when he suggested that perhaps a shake up of the starting lineup might help.  Everyone freaked out and the next game Roman gave up 3 goals on 19 shots.  Boucher came in relief and stopped all of the few shots he saw. 

After that they Started Boucher in game 5 and the Flyers scored for the first time since OT of game 1.  But they got beat on 2 PP goals (the 2nd in OT).  In the end Boucher didn't give up a single even strength goal and Roman who stopped a lot of shots (but never significantly more than Lalime).

 

In 2003 (as mentioned above) Roman faired better, but once again, with the team's back up against the wall in a deciding game, after giving up almost no goals (just enough to lose 3 games) Roman coughed up 5 goals on 30 shots.  Better than the previous two seasons break downs... but not good when your team needs you to shine.  This is the time he flipped out.

 

 

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

Just now, King Knut said:

 

In '01 and '02.

 

Roman had an implosion every playoff series he ever played for the Flyers.  

 

in '01, after 4 games decided by one goal and 1 game the Flyers won by 2, Roman coughed up 5 goals on 9 shots. Boucher came in relief and gave up 3 more on 14 shots, but the Flyers were down 5-0 3 minutes into the second.  The game was over.  

 

In the '02 playoffs the Flyers could literally not score a goal to save their lives.   This series was the epitome of the kind of play I'm talking about.  Anyone who watched it will probably remember, but it was just horribly ugly.  The Flyers could literally not make it across the red line.  The Senators just had them shut down and pinned into their own zone the whole time.

 

The weird part was the Flyers didn't give up an inordinate amount of shots.  Patrick Lalime faced about as many shots as the Flyers goalies did.  Both teams were running extremely stingy defensive systems, but while the Flyers didn't allow many shots, or even many quality shots, the shots they managed to get were even lower quality poorer percentage shots.  They couldn't get out of their own zone because there was no puck control in their own zone.  Neither team could control it because of Roman's style and his inability to swallow or control rebounds.  Play in the Senators end was much more relaxed and controlled because Lalime managed to calm things down and get the puck to his D men when the Flyers perimeter shots finally came in on him.  

 

After Game 3 (I believe was when) Boucher suggested in a post game interview implied the problem when he suggested that perhaps a shake up of the starting lineup might help.  Everyone freaked out and the next game Roman gave up 3 goals on 19 shots.  Boucher came in relief and stopped all of the few shots he saw. 

After that they Started Boucher in game 5 and the Flyers scored for the first time since OT of game 1.  But they got beat on 2 PP goals (the 2nd in OT).  In the end Boucher didn't give up a single even strength goal and Roman who stopped a lot of shots (but never significantly more than Lalime).

 

In 2003 (as mentioned above) Roman faired better, but once again, with the team's back up against the wall in a deciding game, after giving up almost no goals (just enough to lose 3 games) Roman coughed up 5 goals on 30 shots.  Better than the previous two seasons break downs... but not good when your team needs you to shine.  This is the time he flipped out.

 

 

 

 

 

ok. 

[King Knut]

14 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

They also added Timander, Malakhov and Danny Markov and didn't have pylon Chris Therien out there. 

 

Well they didn't play Jagr.  They didn't need Therien

 

Markov I'll give you.  He helped.