J0e Th0rnton

But he wasn't protection for Mario. He went after other teams superstars, not the guys who cross checked Mario.

Well, if he ended, say, Mark Howe's career with a dirty hit I bet you would feel differently When Domi hit him, I recall Richter giving a shoulder shrug "WTF", and I do not recall Ulf's teammates exactly rushing at Domi in his defense. But maybe I just missed it in the highlights. The rest of the league was elated haha. it was a carnival of schadenfreude Those quotes of him are nice, but there are others from that same article. "His job is to hurt people," said Minnesota North Star center Mike Modano during the 1991 Stanley Cup finals. "He goes for the knees a lot. He takes runs at you, and really all he's trying to do is hurt you and knock you out of the game." A few examples. During the 1984-85 season, while he was playing for the Whalers, Samuelsson apparently flicked his stick into the eye of Montreal Canadien forward Pierre Mondou, causing permanent damage that brought Mondou's career to a premature end. Samuelsson said that it was an accident and that he wasn't sure whether his stick or someone else's struck Mondou. In 1991 Samuelsson's hits caused knee injuries to Minnesota's Brian Bellows and Montreal's Brian Skrudland. His most infamous run-in came during the Wales Conference finals that year when he collided with Cam Neely of the Boston Bruins. The resulting thigh and knee trauma has kept Neely, one of the league's best players, out of action for nearly two seasons. When Samuelsson was with Hartford, Neely went after him on several occasions. The fights were always one-sided, with Neely throwing most of the punches, but Samuelsson, beaten but unbowed, stubbornly refused to modify his style. "Here's a guy who's not afraid to crosscheck you, use his stick or whatever," Neely says. "When you play the way he does, you've got to be willing and able to back yourself up." "Let's put it this way: He has a zest for life," says center Ron Francis, who, along with defenseman Grant Jennings, was traded with Samuelsson from Hartford to Pittsburgh for center John Cullen, defenseman Zarley Zalapski and right wing Jeff Parker in what turned out to be a steal for the Penguins. "I've been playing with him nine-plus years, and I still shake my head at the things he does. He's as crazy as ever." And other articles lol. Big hits like those, though, only provide a hint of why he is so hated around the National Hockey League -- after all, collisions along the boards are a staple of North American hockey. But with Samuelsson, there always seems to be the question of whether the elbow came up too high, whether the knee was thrust out deliberately, whether the stick somehow gravitated faceward at the last possible second -- any of which would make the check illegal and raise the ultimate question: is the player writhing on the ice because of a hard but legal check or because Ulf Samuelsson gave him a cheap shot? This October, in his third game with the Rangers, Samuelsson was standing in front of the Ranger net, alongside Toronto's maniacal goon, Tie Domi. When the other players moved up the ice, Domi whirled around, shed a glove and his stick and drilled his left fist into Samuelsson's mouth. The Ranger dropped like an anvil, out cold even before he hit the ice, where he lay for about five minutes before being helped off the ice. When asked what action the league should take against Domi, Mathieu Schneider, the Islanders' defenseman, replied, "For hitting Ulf? A bonus." In fact, the league suspended Domi for eight games. Last month at Madison Square Garden, for example, he rammed his stick between the legs of an Ottawa Senators forward, Trent McCleary, sending the rookie into a rage. In the ensuing action, McCleary was nailed with a five-minute major penalty for apparently blind-siding an unsuspecting Samuelsson with an illegal, open-ice check that left the defenseman sprawled on the ice, to all appearances in agony and seriously injured. But the slow-motion replay showed that, far from being caught unawares, Samuelsson had glimpsed McCleary preparing to level him and surreptitiously braced himself for the impact. Sure enough, after chewing the scenery for a minute or so -- while the penalty was assessed -- Samuelsson skated off to the bench, where he snickered with teammates before returning minutes later for his regular shift on the ice. As a Penguin in the 1991 Stanley Cup finals, Samuelsson collided knee to knee with Minnesota's top scorer, Brian Bellows, away from the play, slowing down Bellows for the rest of the series. Early the next season, he submarined Montreal's Brian Skrudland, tearing Skrudland's knee ligaments and sidelining him for almost two months. One night in 1992, he worked over the Rangers' Mike Gartner so badly that linesmen had to restrain the normally mild-mannered Gartner from bashing Samuelsson's head with his stick. In 1993, Samuelsson ran the Rangers' captain, Mark Messier, just returned from a rib injury, into the boards at Madison Square Garden. Messier responded by dropping Samuelsson with one punch, which started a brief stick fight between the two players. In his five months since joining the Rangers, Samuelsson has already been involved in a number of dust-ups. During a scrimmage on the first day of training camp, he retaliated against the rookie forward Rick Willis, who had just cut another rookie with a high stick, by cross-checking Willis in the face and slamming him into the boards. "Like a shark, I saw blood on the ice," Samuelsson told The Times's Joe Lapointe, conceding that maybe "it's a little early for stuff like that." In a preseason game he speared New Jersey's Stephane Richer, and early in the season he brought down the Hartford star Brendan Shanahan from behind with a flying football tackle, tearing a ligament in Shanahan's wrist.

Spidey! is that you? Haha Parros will give you at least someone who can fight back

Only because he played in the 80's. Unless the game opens up again and pads shrink, nobody is likely to beat many records set in that era

Sounds like a plan to me. Regarding "Where do we cut off" http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_100_greatest_hockey_players_by_The_Hockey_News I would say the top 31 players at least are easily going to make their way into the Hall of fame without much argument or need for validation. Their accomplishments speak for themselves. Some of the names below the top 31 I have never heard of, so i would need to look into them.

haha. So far this forum seems like it could handle the poll I am up for this. I like the discussions. Will we be skipping the obvious hall of fame guys? I mean autoinducting them? Obviously we do not need to have a discussion on the merits of the top 20 players of all time lol.

I am assuming we can use our own Criteria? Certain intangibles mean more to people than others Edit, and would we have a panel and vote in process?

Exactly. When many players around the league are suggesting Domi get a raise instead of a suspension, it should raise a few eyebrows. Ulf deliberately took players out with far worse cheapshots and ended careers. At worst, Ulf got a punch and a nap. Ulf was a guy who would fight and give little punches back, axehandle you with his stick, but keep his visor on so your punches did no good. if you managed to get his helmet off, he would turtle. He never paid the price for thingsbecause he wore armor and hid. All Domi did was throw a punch just about every player in the NHL wanted to throw, but feared the consequences. ill put it to you this way. If a news report came in that a group of fans had pinned Ulf down and crushed his knee with a cynderblock, I would have cheered. I would not wish that on any hockey player ever except Ulf. he is THE dirtiest player ever

Where is Pavel Bure's cup? Marcel Dionne? Cam Neely? Wha?? When he was acquired, the Sharks were the team that just sucked. They could not adjust to the new NHL. The previously got by using clutch and grab trapping and the new NHL was destroying them. The were the last or 2nd last team in the league, and on a 10 game losing streak. He dragged them from bottom barrel to a 99 point season. He definitely could stand to shoot more like he did in his early days. He once used his size a lot more, but was suspended a few times for being a bit too chippy. A few years back, he threw what i think was a clean hit(It actually was not even a hit. He just skated in front of him and planted his feet to stop him) on a blues player, knocking him out and was suspended 2 games. This confuses me a bit. Thornton most certainly did not whine his way out of town. He was shocked when he was traded. He had just signed an extention for 3 years and was the only Bruin doing anything t win. 33 points in 23 games and nobody else was scoring. As I recall, when they were losing(Mostly due to management signing a bunch of big slow 3rd rate players), Jacobs instead of having a talk with the team went in front of camera's and bashed the team. But he never whined his way out of town. He had just bought a house and talked nonstop about how much he loved the team.

I don't think so myself, although i obviously am dying for it to happen. There are quite a few guys in the Hall of fame with weaker resume's than his who have never won a cup. Joe has a claim to several things. Back to back 90 assist seasons are a thing only Lemieux and Gretzky have done. In fact, only 5 players have ever scored 90 assists. Joe also has 3 Assist titles in a row, a rare feat. Runner up for 2 more assist titles, and 3rd another year(as well as 7th, 8th and 10th) He has already solidified a place among the greatest playmakers of all time. When looking at overall points, he has been 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th and 8th. He has multiple years where he was a Hart nominee. 4th, 1st, 3rd, 6th..... That's a lot of time being one of the best players in the league in terms of the Hockey Hall of fame. Pavel Bure was recently inducted. His goalscoring is impressive. But not as impressive as Thornton's playmaking all time in anything but flash. Bure has no cup to his name. Nor was he ever considered the best player in the league(was 3rd for the hart once). Cam Neely, a huge favorite of mine growing up is in. And that shocks me given his body of work

Joe Thornton

Maybe. I kept waiting for his work ethic and experience to turn into something an the Sharks gave him chance after chance because of his work ethic, but just did not see it happen. Joe Thornton tends to bring out the best in people(See Ryane Clowe, Milan Michalek, Jonathan Cheechoo) and teach them how to use their skills, but McGinn even with some time up with Joe was just not finishing opportunities or incorporating learned skills. His hockey IQ and hands and anticipation will never match his skating and heart I think. I hope I am wrong. I just see his ceiling as 40 points tops.

ill concede that, Staal is a bit better defensively, but not by much. It was 2012 they finished close in votes for the Selke trophy(Staal finished 8th with 67 points, Pavelski 11th with 44 points). Staal has previous finishes that were higher than that, but lately, pavelski has closed the gap. Offensively, They are close too. Pavelski does finish with 10-15 more points on average, but that is mostly because of PP time. He is just used in more situations. The age definitely makes a difference, but that is why Staal is signed until 2023, While pavelski is only signed until 2018

Domi is a jerk. I have no doubts about that. However in this case, I think the player on the recieving end deserved what he got as karma for all the star players he intentionally tried to take out over the years(And yes, Ulf was looking to take them out). A lot of players, coaches and analysts felt so too. Domi definitely got his cheap shots in as well, and I never agreed with them other than this one. Not sure about the fighting fans thing. The only time I remember that was when a drunk fan got sprayed with a bit of water. And then he did something stupid, trying to jump over the glass into the penalty box, actually breaking the glass down and then trying to get shots in at Domi. In this case, if Domi threw a few shots at the rabid drunk fan who was obviously trying to atack him, I would find it perfectly acceptable. The funny thing is, I do not remember a single one of Ulf's teammates rushing to his defense either. I did not watch the gam when it happened, but a friend called me and I watched highlights of it all night

It would be an amazing deal to get them for 5 million, but we will see, depending on if the cap goes up again, and if we can unload Havlat. Realistically, I think Jumbo Joe gets 6 million again, and Marleau gets a bit less. Dan Boyle will be the guy taking a bigger paycut because he is 37 and visibly slowing down.

Rofl. I did not realize until now just how many centers the Sharks have. I think 10 centers must be the NHL record. Granted that is why we are such a good faceoff team. We cheat on faceoffs and if one guys gets thrown out, the next guy cheats on faceoffs and the refs rarely stop and throw the second guy out. Thornton, Marleau, Pavelski, Couture, Kennedy, Burish, Sheppard, Wingels, Desjardins and Hertl are all natural centers.

Oh how I wish everyone on the Sharks had his energy and work ethic and physicality at all times. That being said, I do not think he will ever be a top 6 forward or break 40 points. His hockey IQ is just not great and his hands do not match his skating. His ceiling to me, if he ever hit it, would be a third line forward Excellent physical and energy line player though and he cycles the puck very well. Granted if he is given icetime and PP time, he might just pull a Darcy Tucker and have 1 great year.

I don't think so. Wilson, Thornton and Marleau all seem to think they will retire sharks. The cap i keep hearing different things about. Some say it will stay the same, and others insist it will likely wok its way up to 70 million next season. Even if it stays the same, Havlat is being bought out at the first opportunity(Nobody is happy with him) or we may trade him for future considerations if anyone wants him. Boyle is 36-37 and his contract is up. he will likely never get that kind of money again, and can be resigned at a lower price. Thornton and Marleau are both 33-34 and Thornton has always proven willing to take a discount and short terms. I think 6 million is the new cap for our forwards to be honest. Thornton and Marleau both want a cup, not money. Thornton has said as much in an interview. Pavelski is already more than a 40 point player. He is a regular 25-30 goal, 60 point player and seems to produce no matter who he plays with at ES(but has best results with the top line of Pavelski/Thornton/Marleau. That line is deadly). He plays in all situations and is a pointman on our PP. But he is also our top Pker. The past 2 seasons he has been a 2nd/3rd line center and occasionally jumps to the wing for Jumbo Joe and Marleau. This past season he played with Wingels and Torres. Well, he tends to hop all over every line occasionally. The coach makes everyone practice together so he can throw mishmass lines out. The season before last we saw a lot of Clowe/Pavelski/Wellwood/Mitchell/Setoguchi. Couture is much the same. They juggle his linemates a lot, but he always comes through looking great. not the best skating in Couture, but his hockey IQ is amazing and makes up for it. I suspect before long, we will hear that Jumbo is extended, and likely, Marleau as well. But not for more than 6 million a season.

Definitely. I am incredibly biased obviously since Neely was my favorite player growing up and Ulf effectively ruined him and his career. I just hate Ulf for being the supreme hit and hide player. Since I started watching hockey, I have never seen a dirtier player. Edit: How many other players have 2453 penalty minutes with as few fights as Ulf? I am pretty sure he is like top 30 all time for Penalty minutes and that every guy above him was a noted fighter who had more penalties for fighting than other infractions

Not sure if I would have Wellwood there. By all accounts, he has the talent to be much more than he is. granted, I did not mind him on a lower line role with the Sharks, but i also was not clammoring to keep him. A year ago I would have said Suter, but now everyone knows how good he is. I used to think Bergeron was underrated, but a lot of people are hip to the guy now. Damn great player he is.

@fanaticV3.0@JR Ewing Efff That. Samuelsson deserved worse. A guy who intentionally tried to blow peoples knees out(And often did). A guy who intentionally high sticked people in the eyes. Cross check people in the neck as hard as he can. Spear people in the nuts. Butt ending people in the face. He was always intentionally trying to knock people out of the game. Everytime you played him, you knew you had to keep an eye out for the cheap shots. This is a guy who players agreed almost unanimously as most hated in the NHL for YEARS. He wore ridiculous sized hard armor for pads to maximize damage done by hits(His Nickname Robocop was not an affectionate one). He refused to answer the bell after the cheap shots. In Todays NHL, Ulf would have been banned long ago. How often does a sucker punch like that invite praise from so many other NHLers? There was a reason for that.

Well, Pavelski puts up a good deal of points considering he does most of it at ES, and more recently has been doing it on the third line checking opposing teams with little help. He also is the teams go to PK guy Looking at the Market and recent signings. Filppula is making 5 million. He has one 23 goal, 66 point season under his belt. Same age as Pavelski, but overall, usually a 40 point guy tops. He does not kill Penalties often. Clarkson is making 5.25 million a year, and is a one time 30 goals scorer with a career high 46 points who does not kill penalties. Jordan Staal makes 6 million for the next 10 years. His defensive play is roughly the same, but his offensive value is a wee bit less. He is the best comparison. For all the extra things Pavs brings to the table, he could have tested the Market and possibly gotten more. This made me laugh "Phew. Was worried I'd be on the hook for dinners this year. Big Money Pavelski will be taking care of them now" Jason Demers responds "that's what you think couture hahaha"

Hmmm. Not that I am happy with our defense, but it is not that bad. haha. I am assuming he is just going for reactions with this. Vlasic and Stuart are very solid defensive defenders. Boyle is still great offensively, although aging fast. Demers shows flashes of a prime Dan Boyle and Braun is not that bad. Hannan is old, but plays better than murray did as a #6 guy. Irwin....yeah, he makes me nervous when he is on the ice. Tennyson looked decent in his call up.

Overall, you will not see many shark fans complaining. Most think it is a wee bit too much but not really given the market, and overall, we are very happy. Couture and Pavs would fetch a fair price on the open market for their two way skills given what guys like Filipula, Clowe and Clarkson are getting(Both are better than any of them) Core players locked up for 5-6 years. If the cap goes up next year, we have a bit more breathing room. if not, well, we have around 15 million for Thornton/Marleau/Boyle. Boyle being 37 can expect a paycut. We might be able to swing it. Thornton an Marleau up till now have agreed to short term 3-4 year contract extentions every few years in a land where everyone was asking for very long term deals. Both have expressed desire to win a cup there. Pavs original extention was only 4 million a year when he could have asked for more on the market. He is being rewarded now. I hope and hope that the next thing I hear is Thornton and Marleau get extentions at a hometown discount.

Thank you. My thoughts exactly.