JR Ewing

19 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

I think a generational talent is one that comes along once in a generation and dominates it. It isn't 5 or 6  or 7 or 8 guys who put up points.

 

Crosby, as much as I hate to admit it as a Flyers fan, pretty much dominated his era. Not only did he put up more points than Kane, he did it playing a tougher position, while also playing solid defensively (Kane sorely lacks there) In about the same amount of games Crosby scored over 100 goals more and 150 assists more, while playing a 200 foot game. Add 70 more playoff points on top of that. 

 

Theres your generational talent. 

 

And I don't think anyone can argue he's handed it to McDavid. 

 

You're never going to see the Flyers get a generational talent picking 14 through 32 (someone elses pick) all the time. Maybe we get a franchise player out of Michkov. 

The term is nearly laughably over-used now. Generational talents are the sorts of players who start racking up numbers that nobody has seen in (gasp!) a generation or more. They're the sorts of players who pile up multiple Art Ross, Hart, Lindsays, etc. Patrick Kane has won a Hart, Lindsay and Art Ross and was, as you point out, a sub-par defensive player. Great player who had a great year, but it doesn't add up to Crosby, who has two Art Ross, two Harts and three Lindsays. It's light years away from McDavid who has five Art Ross, four Lindays and three Harts in only eight years.

Patrick Kane is a slam-dunk, first ballot of Hall of Famer. Not generational, though.

19 minutes ago, hmc687 said:

 

If the lotteries were truly random they would be drawn LIVE.  Otherwise its extremely suspicious the way certain teams win.  Specifically, EDM to win the lottery 2 times in 6 years (both 1OA wins) and retain the 1OA spot the two times they were 1OA favorites and for NJ to outright win 1OA twice and 2OA once in 6 years.

 

The statistical likelihood of the above scenario is poor.  Probably because it wasnt a statistical anomaly. Bettman and the NHL pick their winners

If anything, the Oilers winning the lottery in 2015 is evidence that the league doesn't rig the draft. There's no way they were hoping that Connor McDavid would land in the laps of a historically inept management team that plays its games in the most out-of-the-way market they could find. If they had their choice, McDavid would be a Ranger or Blackhawk right now.

3 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

Catton is good but considering Coots is shot and Frost our only other skilled center, is kinda small... I'd prefer Lindstrom, he's a better fit to balance out the team. I'm trying to build a balanced team of size and skill with finesse.  So that's a solid one two of Lindstrom and Frost with Coots as third line C.

 We already have three small or non physical dmen with Sanheim,  Drysdale and York as well. So if I'm building a balanced team, I'd like Lindstrom up front or Dickinson on the blueline. 

Frost has average NHL size for a centre, but I do take your point. A player can be small and effective, but small teams are easier to neutralize and you can't teach size...

49 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

I'd love to get either...at what price?

 

Catton certainly isn't big, but he's good everywhere and has a heck of an IQ. Over 50 goal scorer, leading the league in shorties. 5'11" and 170 in his draft year isn't terrible. That's about that Frost was in his draft year...he's put on about 20 lbs. 

Agreed. I think that drafting best player available is damned near always the way to go, with exceptions for things like prioritizing centres over wingers or players who are almost a year younger than the rest of the group. Drafting for current need is risky business. Players take time to develop, and your needs may be very different by the time they're ready, and that's if they even make it that far anyway.

I don't know who of those three will end up the better player, but I wouldn't let Catton being relatively thin dissuade me if I was pretty sure that he was the best bet.

2 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

I wonder why. IIRC UFA veteran D-men were pretty scarce at the TD.
 

Johnson has been knocked his whole career, which goes with the territory of an overall 1st sometimes. But some of the fanbase in Denver never warmed up to him. He may not be the greatest defender but he’s not useless either like some 2-way D-men can be. 
 

If he plays ~12mins, steady, calm, no glaring mistakes maybe delivers a big hit once in awhile imho he’ll be well worth the 4R.

No, I'm sorry. He's well past his expiration date and providing sub-replacement level play at both ends of the ice, especially his own.

8 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 

I know I posted something about this not too long ago, and I think it's something like 2 or 3 teams in the last 20 or 25 years have won the cup without a 1st overall. Those are terrible odds.

 

Of course you need good management to build around or you won't go far. See Buffalo among others. You also need some luck...I'm sure if Philly had Barkov and Makar instead of JVR and Patrick our team would look slightly different. Edmonton used to pick high all the time in week drafts until they finally nailed it with McDavid. They haven't won, but he's still the first player I'm taking on my team for a cup run, so hardly his fault. 

 

I agree culture is huge. And the Flyers are finally addressing that. But talent is also huge. 

 

edit: I see JR touched on this the same time I was posting.

Even if you do everything right, you could come up against a team with a payroll approaching $100M in a league with a salary cap of $85M and get to listen to the analysts wax poetic about that team's incredible depth.

1 hour ago, GratefulFlyers said:

I'm not convinced "tanking" is the only path. Assets are bought and sold all the time. Maybe not the overall 1st pick but just about anything else. Briere will have to be creative on draft day...if not this year then next year.

Tanking can assure you of getting high quality picks, but a lot of things have to line up properly for it all to work.

You need to do it when the right player comes along. The term "generational talent" gets thrown around a lot these days. Sometimes it's used correctly, like with Crosby and McDavid and sometimes it doesn't, like with Bedard. You can still build around a player like Bedard, but I'm not entirely convinced that you should strip your organization completely of talent to get a player who falls short of that truly rare gift. The textbook example of this are the Oilers. In their case, they tried it with Taylor Hall, and he just wasn't the guy to empty to the cupboard for. Ryan Nugent-Hopkins is a very good hockey player, but his draft wasn't the deepest. Nail Yakupov was a disaster. Not all 1st overall picks, not even consensus #1s, are that guy.

It's one thing to shred talent, but it's another to build it back up. Sure, you can stockpile draft picks, but those picks need to be the right players with the right mix of qualities and at the right positions. You need the right people in player development. You need the right people in the AHL. You need an owner who keeps his nose out of hockey ops. You can't make mistakes there, or you wander in the wilderness.

You can't have bad luck. In 2019, the Oilers had Andrej Sekera carved out of their rebuild, due to an Achilles injury which ended his NHL career. The next season, Oscar Klefbom was forced to retire due to arthritis issues at only 26. Adam Larsson signed in Seattle the next off-season, because he couldn't bear to play hockey in the building next to the place where his father died.

Total rebuilds can work, but a lot factors (many of which are completely beyond your control) have to swing in your favour in order for it to go right.

37 minutes ago, thegx.ca said:

I like Stetcher he definitely improves their D...but still not enough considering all the adds Vegas/Peg/Dallas/Vancouver/etc all made...

Agreed. Kelly McCrimmon is the smartest, craftiest, most creative and devious General Manager currently at work in the NHL, and he had a strong deadline.

4 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

 

But it wasn't "thrown away" and Eric Johnson is not a "washed up bum." He's just not.

 

Whatever you think of the plan - the rebuild or whatever - adding a D-man, which the Flyers truly need right now with all the injuries on the back end - for 18 frikkn games, 18 + the POs - c'mon is that really throwing a monkey wrench into the plan?

EJ is a replacement-level player now:

He costs $3.3M but is providing $800K in value.

10 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

I told you guys that somewhere, somehow, the Flyer ol’ boy network, still has some control.

The GM and POHO hiring were the obvious sign.

On 3/5/2024 at 9:47 PM, yave1964 said:

 Idk man, that was my initial thought but the whispers are getting that he is in worse shape than initially thought.

Here's why I can't help but be a little cynical about Stone being put on LTIR:

Man, it is so lucky that Stone's back always gives up the ghost just before the trade deadline, so the team can add a bunch of salary to their roster. How convenient.

1 hour ago, RonJeremy said:

It’s all about balance and being able to go up against any team and play any style. One dimensional teams always have to hope for a good matchup when the playoffs start, that’s one of the biggest problems Toronto had over the years.  They went up against some physical teams and couldn’t compete.  I know it’s hard, but you can’t be stacked in one area and weak in another and expect to win.

What's been galling is to see a guy the size of Matthews basically disappear when things get physical. Steve Stamkos, outweighed by 20 lbs, bullied Matthews a couple of playoffs ago.

17 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Ok, THAT was funny. 

 

Briere hasn't fallen into the "Chuck Fletcher hole of ineptitude" or anything, as far as I'm concerned. The Seeler signing is in no way as stupid as the Risto trade, and then Risto signing of complete stupidity that will take the franchise years to recover from. 

 

For me, it was just the faint hope that we would FINALLY do a complete rebuild. Tear it down, draft a superstar or two, and enjoy the ride back up in hopes of winning that elusive cup before we're all dead. 

 

Instead, here we are in the middle of the pack, hoping Tortsie can squeeze one more ounce of juice out of that ol' orange rind. I just don't see adding a few twenty something picks to whats here already winning a cup. I hope to hell I'm wrong and I'd gladly eat crow. But when I watch teams hoist the cup and look at our roster, it ain't even close.

I'm sure that surreptitiously planted microphone would have picked up a lot of "he plays Flyers hockey!" sorts of things being said when they were talking about re-signing Seeler. I agree; it's not a crippling signing. I just think it doesn't serve to move the needle for the team in any way, shape or form.

For anybody worried that Seeler will be blocking a young defenseman: if that young defenseman can't move past the 3rd pairing guy who spends too much time defending, you have bigger problems to worry about.

16 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

I just got to the part where they resigned Seeler.  That is incredibly dumb.

Paying a guy $2.7M at that age because he's too unskilled to do anything other than not get out of the way of the puck is not a winning move. 

 

My guess is he loses a step at 32 and is basically unplayable from that point on.

The Edmonton media and more than a few fans used to prostrate themselves by waxing poetic about the shotblocking of Kris Russell. I don't want to be misunderstood, because it's a good thing to block a shot. It's also true that if you're always blocking a lot of shots, the other team just has the puck too damned much. Those guys usually have a pretty rough transition into their 30s, as that sort of game really takes it toll on your body.

I'm glad the Oilers were able to grab a multi-dimensional player. I’d have been disappointed with a pure scorer like Mantha where you have a vacuum if he’s not scoring, and that 20%+ shooting percentage won't go on forever. High calories, low nutrition.

-Henrique: can play centre, PK, play on a skill line, play in a depth role, etc. He doesn't have the quickest boots, but he’s high IQ and pairing him with a fast train like Ryan McLeod should make him effective.

-Carrick: upgrade over Derek Ryan on the 4th line. Ryan is smart, but old, small and slow, and struggles with assignments due to the physics of the NHL.

8 hours ago, yave1964 said:

 Idk man, that was my initial thought but the whispers are getting that he is in worse shape than initially thought.

I know that he legitimately has a bad back, and that can really impact a person's life. Hope he's alright.

3 hours ago, yave1964 said:

  With Mark Stone out long term and possibly the rest of the season Vegas needed scoring from the wing. Mantha is not Stone but his scoring has been good on a team that needed him to step up. It likely means Guentzel is out of the Vegas lottery and makes Vancouver the favourite 

Stone's back will be good to go the day after the regular season ends.

27 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

What if they traded him for many assets in return?

 

Asking for a friend?

 

 

 

The Vancouver Canucks began their rebuild at the entry draft of 2017 after finishing 2nd-last in the NHL, and it was Elias Pettersson who was the centrepiece of that rebuild. After six painful seasons spent mostly losing, while putting other pieces around Pettersson, they now find themselves themselves 1st in their division and have been in and out of 1st place overall throughout the year.

I think that trading the centrepiece of that rebuild, right when you're in a position to contend is, to put it as politely as possible, silly. I'll lean on the opinions of two great hockey men:

Sam Pollock said that the winner of a trade is the team that gets the best player. The Canucks would be instant losers in this scenario. Al Arbour said that the secret to building a winner is "no secret; it's not complicated - get good players" and keeping them is a part of that equation that we can't ignore.

On 3/2/2024 at 12:35 PM, Brewin Flames said:

Love that he singed, great for him...

 

Silly contract for the nucks though.

Right; but what was Allvin supposed to do here? This is what I always want to know from people who think the dollars and term are unconscionable. Do you think it would have been better if he engaged in 100% cutthroat negotiations, risking the creation of a hostile situation between himself and an important part of his team's core? Relationships between player and team have been broken that way, and the Vancouver Canucks aren't better off with Elias Pettersson playing hockey somewhere else.

Should he have signed Pettersson to a bridge contract, which would make him a UFA at the end of the deal, making him even more expensive in three years? That's what happened with Darnell Nurse, who was bridged two times, creating his dreadful contract for the Oilers today.

I guess I just always wonder what people expect to happen in these things. It's one for Panthers to sign guys to lower-than-expected dollars in contracts, but with no state tax and the price of an average detached home going for what Pettersson can buy a 1-bedroom condo for in Vancouver, there are other considerations at play.

At current production, I think he's ever-so-slightly overpaid, but the contract is in the range. If he improves at all, and he's only 25, he'll be fair value. For the people who always freak out about the signing of core players to these contracts, I want to know what it is they think the GMs should do? Bridge them and pay even more? Grind them to death, extract every nickel and create animosity?

Much the same as with the William Nylander contract, the Leafs issue is Tavare's age/AAV, not the young player in his prime.

40 minutes ago, radoran said:

Bookies are here to separate you from your money.

 

I wish I could give more than one upvote. Gambling is a mug's game and every bet is one against the house.

38 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

?

 

They signed both of them to 10+ year deals with movement clauses and traded Crater immediately before they couldn't - to Columbus (for 10 years).

 

An organization commits the next decade to you - and you to them - and two years after you sacrificed your shoulders carrying them to the Cup Final the organization scraps you for parts.

 

First point is that this happened.

 

Second is that no one really cares about it if they get paid not to.

 

 

I mean that the Flyers were able to say "Hey, we wanted them long term, but we found that they just party too darned much". Not saying I approve, but that if other free agents ask them why they should sign a deal after Richards/Carter, the team could say "Keep your nose clean and you're fine".

That is, unless I'm remembering this incorrectly. My memory is that the team wanted them gone and that the prevailing wisdom said it was because of drugs and partying.

3 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Have you met Mike Richards and Jeff Carter?

 

Sure, different group, but the same organization*.

I get it, but the Flyers at least had an out with them.