B21

I will admit...I had to look up "sisyphean". I've never been much for Greek mythology. Great analogy though. Everything you say is true...they lucked into Crosby. A perfect "storm" of events got them Malkin, Staal and Fleury (none of which included tanking). They have won 3 Cups since your last. They are often called a "model franchise" which I disagree with....only once Crosby and Malkin are gone will I call them that assuming they have maintained their success both on AND off the ice. All legitimate reasons not too like them...plus we are friggin' rivals. So I'll ask a favorite rhetorical question...why the need for all the other non-sense? It's not like there isn't enough for you to dislike them in that short paragraph I just wrote.

@Lindbergh31 << As long as Lemieux and the Pens employ Matt Cooke on their team, no other team in the league will take them seriously when it comes to the discussion of concussions. >> Very fair point and I agree 100%. But Boston has Lucic and Marchand...so that means they cannot complain about the hit on Savard? << Second, if Orpik did indeed plan to stick out his knee on Stephan then he should be out as long as Stephan. You'll never convince opposing fans that the Pens don't get special treatment from the refs or the league because they have Crosby on their team, it's no different than Gretzky and the Oilers in the 80's. >> See post 82 above. So if the league goes out of the way to protect them why wasn't Downie suspended for a very cheap and dirty slew on Crosby? Explain that one. << Tort's point about what would have happened to a Ranger player if he would have hit Crosby or Malkin the way Orpik did on Stepan, he would have been suspended at least 5 games. How come the league hasn't said anything regarding the Orpik hit yet they already suspended the Minnesota player who headed butted Mayers from Chicago the next day, what's the league waiting for. >> Again...just like Downie was suspended? Or Steckel? How many slew foots did OV get away with before he finally got suspended? Orpik got 5, 10 and game. Fair. << I've never had a problem that I can't stand winning a championship as long as they win it fairly without special help from the refs. >> I agree. The refs really did screw the Pens when not once but twice they missed a Red Wings player covering the puck in the crease with their hand. That's two penalty shots not awarded...and we know how good the Pens are on penalty shots. Of course all I hear about is how Malkin didn't get an instigator.

I'd respond but post #53 (to you) beat me to it...and kinda sums it up. Instead of watching a game solely to see what the Pens get away with, just watch to enjoy. You'll live longer.

@Vanflyer << Its not sour grapes. Its just a long overdue coming out party for two of the biggest hacks in the league. Nobody will deny the skill. Two of the best players in the league. Yet both players have chosen to play a style that is below board. It is the same lament with Ovechkin- but even worse. Ovechkin consistently "charges" players. You take a player like Datsyuk, the Sedins, Stamkos and even Giroux. All elite talents and they don't 10% of the crap that Crosby and Malkin do. For too long now there has been a ridiculous level of protection for both players and its about time for it to stop. You got your cup (gifted by the league) and there is not further reason to continue this coveting and blind eye by the league. >> I am so tired of these broad statements..."level of protection". Fine. If that is your point (and it seems to the point of many fans of the Fyers and Rangers these days) give me an example. How does the league "protect" Crosby and Malkin. Does the league not call penalties on them? We know that is not true. Look at their PIM versus players of comparable skill sets. It's higher. If the league called every penalty on Crosby that you are calling for he'd be a 300 PIM guy. His game does not strike me as a 300 PIM game. And if he's a 300 PIM guy, Hartnell has to be at least a 400 PIM guy. Do they get away with more than other stars? We know that's not true either. If any Flyer fan can take the O&B goggles of you will see that Jagr, Hartnell and Giroux get away with hooks, slashes, even PUNCHES (there is a great video of Hartnell repeatedly punching a Devils player in the back of the head during play...no penaly and no suspension) all the time. Funny I didn't see anyone calling Hartnell "cheap" or "dirty" for his antics in the Devlis game. Has Crosby missed significant time with a concussion due, in part, to a questionable hit (the Steckel hit)? Yes. If the league wanted to "protect" him then why was there no suspension for Steckel? I mean, if you are protecting a guy wouldn't even the slightest questionable hit be punished? It sure would. Of course since he is NOT protected, there was no suspension. If a star player was slew footed by a guy with a "history" wouldn't a league trying to "protect" that star player suspend him for multiple games? I would think so. Of course that player got off with a $1,000 fine. Now apparently Malkin is a hypcocrite because he complains, too? Really? Are Torts and Berube serious on that one? Fine. Show me. Prove it. I have never denied Malklin plays on the edge and does not shy away from the occasional late hit or post-whistle whack. Guess what? That applies to half the league. Malkin also takes a lot more abuse than most players. You almost never see Malkin bark at an official or make a controversial quote in the press. He barely speaks English. But now he's lumped in to the "complaining" role because..well...Tortsie and Berube said so. The same Tortsie who was fined $30,000 after the WC for...complaining. The same Tortsie who whines about ANYTHING that does not go his teams' way. << Its not sour grapes of jealousy, but just a utter disdain for the character of players they are. Its not entirely their fault as the NHL has assisted in perpetrating their styles. I know you are a pittsburgh fan and thus have some tainted glasses. What kind of player punches a guy in the balls or in the back of the head multiple times when the other player engaged with another player? >> Back of the head? Well, Hartnell for one. To the balls? I'll take Briere on that one. There is another broad statement..."the NHL has assisted in perpetrating their styles." Fine. Show me how. Is it because Crosby was in the most commercials at one point? Is it all those suspensions levied for hits on Crosby and Malkin? Oh wait...there are none. Is it Crosby and Malking getting away with things that every NHL players gets away with? Have all the disdain you want. They are Pens after all. You aren't supposed to like them. But the BS bias/coddling/conspiracy/protecting that has been ferstering among Flyers fans (and now Rangers apparently) is just that...BS. And now that Milbury and Tortorella have jumped on the bandwagon, you are going to tell me "Look! See! It is true"? Two of the biggest and least credible complainers possible.

Milbury is only "prominent" when he crosses over the line that a more respected commentator would not. That's the only time Milbury makes the headlines and the only time anyone cares what Milbury says. He crossed that line once and again and got called out on it and was told to tuck his tail between his legs and apologize. The only panties in a bunch these days apparently belong to Lavi, Berube, Briere and Torts.

@mojo1917 << the context of the Milbury quote regarding the concussions is important here, when i read and later heard that, i took it to mean Sidney has had his share of concussions and that now that he's got the clean bill of health he's not going to engage in the scrums if he can avoid it. i didn't think that Milbury was making light of 87's concussions but actually using them to further make his point... now what Ray Shero chose to comment on if it is indeed the same quote as the one i'm thinking about, (which is the 35 concussion comment) shows me he a.) didn't get it or b.) was looking to manipulate the conversation for his own purposes. >> I could not disagree more.

@terp << Interesting rebuttle because Shero did indeed comment about concussions. The only problem was that Milbury didn't "make light of" Sid's concussions. Shero was playing the victim, but the offense never occurred. So it was an odd thing to complain about. In fact, it sounded like more whining. >> You obviouly pick and choose what you want to believe. You have it engraved into your mind that there is bias for my team and against yours despite all the facts proving otherwise. The same goes for these latest issues. Shero did not play the victim. He had issues with Milbury making light of Crosby's concussion history (which Milbury did in fact do). Now Milbury is a "prominent" broadcast personality? If you were able to add "well respected" to that you have an argument. But you can't...becuase is isn't. And neither is much of what he says...unless of course it conveniently makes your argument. Milbury is wrong...plain and simple. As was Laviolette and Berube and Torts. << So far as your comment about Flyers fans, this is an apples to oranges comparison. Two head coaches, an assistant coach and a prominent broadcast personality called out the organization and their marquee players. This isn't perception, it's fact and it is damaging to the Pens' brand. The Pens would be wise to take this seriously and do something other than malign the sources and complain about invented offenses against their club. >> Apples to oranges...but still fruit. Your argument...it must be true because X, Y and Z said so. Same as mine. Poll the fans of other teams and I guarantee the whiniest fan title goes to Philly. So it must be true then because enough people said so (using your rationale). By the way, how did the Pens malign the sources? Please post the malicious comments made by the Pens in response to Laviolette, Milbury, Berube and Torts.

Did your wife and son get that? If the Pens are being accused of something they deserve then I won't defend them. But Crosby and Malkin get away with no more or no less than the other star players in the league and that includes several Flyers. For some reason, Torts and Berube and Milbury have issues with that. But just because known whiner like Torts calls out Crosby and Malkin for really no reason...really just reiterating what Berube said who was reiterating what Milbury (a known whiner and Pens/Crosby hater) said...and I have to take "See - we told you!" from Flyers nation? LOL...gimma a break.

Funny...I only see Tortsie, Lavi, Berube and Milbury doing the whining. 2 of the 4 are kinda known for being...well...whiny. The last Pens players to be suspended were Letang earlier this year and Engelland back in December. Google the comments made by Bylsma, Letang and Engelland tell me who the whiners are. Now take your coach fuming over a legal hit that would not have been made had 1) he not put the player out there and 2) said player was not skating with his head down. Again...tell me who the whiners are. Lemieux was not allowed to complain about head shots because he employed Matt Cooke. Funny I don't recall Tortsie having any issues with Avery. I guess it's OK for him to complain now that Avery is no longer a Ranger? Yeah - but the Pens are the biggest whiners.

I like the drunk quote. I think there is a perception issue that the Flyers and Rangers and Milbury have...but really...is that new? Milbury has hated the Pens ever since he accused Badger Bob of "gooning it up"...Milbury not liking goons. Go figure.

@pilldoc << I agree with the Briere hit being clean, however, what about the hit on Grossman by Vitale? >> What about it? Not a slew. Not intentional knee on knee. Totally incidental. << Now the hit on Stephan by Orpik. >> Agree. Torts has a legitimate beef with this his though his comments had nothing to do with the hit. Orpik is lunging forward to make the hit and misses as Stepan deeks past him. Knees collide. Hard to say if Orpik intentionally stuck his knee out to get Stepan's knee. He was already in a wide stance....which oh by the way was the same argument made by Rangers fans when Rupp took out Jordan Staal's knee. Back to Orpik, at first even the Rangers announcers said no then maybe then not sure. I.E. - borderline. I think those guys are pretty fair and when they see something dirty they'll call it out pretty emphatically. They weren't too emphatic here at all. But I can see why Tortsie was upset. << This crap has been going on all season. Of course it is magnified more because it is playoff time. The fact of the matter is if it would had been a Flyer or a Ranger player doing the same knee on knee it, the vast majority of Pen's fans would be calling for suspensions. >> Kinda like Flyers and Rangers fans are doing? << The Pens are one of the most dirtiest teams around, just as bad as all the other teams out there, but for some reason, Bettman wants to protect your franchise. >> Here we go again...are they "one of the dirtiest teams around" or "just as bad as all other teams out there"? Can't be both. << Don't deny it because you know it is true. How can you honestly defend Crosby slashing away during the last Flyers game. For gods sake he broke his stick over Vorachek and no call. All that stuff was festering when the powder keg blew at the end of the game. Maybe Lavy should not have had Briere out there during the last min of play and that is lack of judgement on his part, however, Bylsma sent your goon line out with a purpose, well I support Lavy if he sends out our goon line to drop the puck on tomorrow's game. >> I'm not defending Crosby. I am saying he does nothing that a Jagr or Hartnell or even Giroux does. Don't sit here and tell me that those guys do not take just as many liberties with their sticks or with hooks or slashes or whatever AND don't get called for it all the time. The same thing you want to literally villify Crosby and the Pens for is the same thing your own players do....your own STAR players do....AND get away with just as often. Why the double standard? Please...dislike the Pens all you want because they are the Pens. But literally inventing conspiracies is such BS. And to go along with that, all of a sudden guys like Torts and Milbury who are regularly killed in this form (and were on silly.com) for their own comments are suddenly gospel when they call out the Pens. The irony kills me. And if Bylsma sent his guys out to send a message, why did it take so long for anything to happen? Why no fights right off the faceoff? Were the Pens just hoping Briere skated up ice with his head down so they could level him so "maybe" they could send a message? And since when do Flyer fans have issues with LEGAL hits meant to send a message (assuming that was the intent)???? Maybe when its their team getting the message?

Four different guys....3 coaches of arch-rivals and a commentator who has a well known dislike for the Pens and Crosby and is known for his off the wall and often inappropriate comments. The only complaining the FO did (Shero and Lemieux) was that the league needs to do more about hits to the head, concussions, etc. I guess those 4 disagree with that assessment. If that qualifies as a perception problem then the Flyers must really have the whiniest fans in the league because that is what fans of all the other teams think. So that makes it true then? You tell me.

Thanks for being an objective one. It's refreshing when that happens.

LOL. I take it you agree then.

OK, Van. I want to make sure I follow this. Laviolette has a player injured by completely clean and legal hit and goes off...complaining about the Pens tactics. Milbury, a guy known for readily changing his opinions and his (very often) off the wall and inappropriate comments, then does the same. He also adds a few concussion jabs about Crosby. Classy. Berube takes up Milbury's cause and runs with it. Now Tortsie, probably the biggest whiner of all NHL coaches, does the same after a borderline dirty knee-on-knee hit on his guy pretty much echoing what Laviolette and especially Milbury said a few days earlier. Legitimate beef on the hit but really nothing to do with the players he is calling out. Smells alot like sour grapes.

Oh - and no one "quit" on Therien. Keep trying. If you throw enough shots up against the wall something is bound to stick. Maybe you can pin the war in Iraq on the Pens, Malkin and Crosby?

I don't believe Gonchar is "Superman". Not that it matters...the point was that it's inaccurate to compare the Therien firing to Bodreau. For some reason you brought up the performance of the Pens after the move to make your case. Bottom line....one coach was feuding with a pouting star. One wasn't.

Nice spin. I'm not that only person who thought Gonchar's return was a big reason for the turnaround. It's no secret the Pens need that offensive minded puck-moving d-man to really make things click. Look at what happened when Letang was out this year. Of course the change was a reason as well but this was not some captain-led coup against the coach like it was in Washington. The Caps are a highly skilled team, too. How did the coaching change work for them? They continued to underperform and barely snuck into the playoffs http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2011/11/03/boudreau-sends-ovechkin-caps-message/ Don't recall anything like that happening before Therien was fired. I know you WANT that to be the case so you can point at the Pens/Crosby and say "Ha ha ha" but it just ain't true.

You could not be more incorrect. And a lot of hockey experts argued that the team's turnaround, while coinciding with the coaching change, was even more due to the return of Gonchar who had been out all season.

Wrong. Everything I read had Therien being fired for the team's performance and his style...more stifling and less up tempo. It was pretty much out there about Boudreau and why he was fired. Nice try though.

@peter puck << OV was wrong to skip the dog and pony show he got the suspension he deserved. he shouldnt have been there based on his play at the timeeven though it was the allstar game and hes a "star " >> Um...that's my point. Someone mentioned "You never see OV acting like this yadda yadda yadda...." This was an example of OV pouting. << Im sure there was some goings on in the Pens lockerroom when M.T. was fired and Sid was the captain,not every team airs out their dirty laundry. That team decided they didnt like coach and layed down on him.Some say it was his style but it damn sure worked the year before. >> That would be news if there was. Everything I read had Therien being fired for the team's performance and his style...more stifling and less up tempo. It was pretty much out there about Boudreau and why he was fired. Nice try. << Whining as an 18 and maybe a 19 year old what have you been watching? He hasnt gotten his whinig and diving reputation on a Flyers chat room. >> No. He got it as an 18-19 year old and it's stuck even though those antics have been significantly curtailed these last few years. Sure it's another reason for you to dislike him but not really a legitimate one anymore. I love how Crosby gets killed for the occasional dive when beloved Flyer Bill Barber invented it. If you were around back then I am sure you would have had nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo problem with it. << 9 out of 10 plays argue the call when they go to the box do they get labeled as whiners? No. Sid is constantly whining in every situation even though he admits and his stats prove he commits his fair share and we all know he gets away with just as much as the next player.If Giroux, Ovie and the other stars acted that way wouldnt they be labeled too? >> So if 9 out of 10 players (that's a lot) complain on their way to the box, why aren't there more "whiners" in the league? Why is Crosby the only "whiner"? You make my argument again. And if you think OV doesn't whine then you don't watch enough of him. << Asked yourself this if that was Sids face being drove into the ice while the player ignored the refs would the penalty call and the presser be different? Even the annoucers said there should have been some stiffer penalty called. Sid, Mario, Bylsma, Shero the league and every hockey related show would be all over it calling for suspesions and fines. >> This again? Really? You want a suspension for that then I want one for Hartnell punching a guy while he was down. Fair is fair, right? If you want to play that way, tell my Hartnell wasn't suspended for this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrV3WnJPGNk Punches to the back of the head. Repeatedly. Funny I don't recall any complaining about that. Thoughts?

@xganarchy << What!! LOL Okay, so the next time there's a scrum, you'd be fine with Rinaldo throwing off the gloves and punching Malkin/Crosby/Stall in the face a few times before even getting the gloves off? C'mon now.... >> Pissed? If they got hurt...sure. But in a scrum? Don't get involved if you don't want to be hit. It happens...like Hartnell in that now famous "scrum" with Kunitz. << I think a lot of fans are PO'd that one of our skill guys was injured when the game was pretty much over at that point. Of course we would want our players to play to the final buzzer, but that doesn't make us any less PO'd. Lavi was PO'd for the same reason. One of our best playoff performers was put out by a 4th line scrub (who coincidentally had a borderline knee on knee hit on one of our better defensemen earlier) when the game was already decided. >> Looking at the situation from a neutral standpoint, many would say what happened is just part of the game and will provide for a great first round matchup. Others have said it's one of those unspoken rules, like not running up the score when ahead by 3-4 goals at the end of a game. >> Hey...you have every right to be PO'd. But being PO'd at the situation versus "blaming" what happened on the Pens is a little different. Should Lavi have known better? Maybe...he didn't have the luxury of the last change but still...why take a chance. Send out the 4th line. Not sure about an unwritten rule here, either.

@mojo1917 << no i actually don't care a whole lot about it, it was unfortunate briere was hurt and that's really the end of it, if this were the flyers vs the oh i don't know phx coyotes that hit doesn't take place in the same situation, because of a rivalry there needed to be a message sent. whatever. >> If the point was to "send a message" something would have happened a lot sooner...like right after the face off. Funny, I didn't see any Pens challenge any Flyers to a fight. If the point was to send a message, you go out of your way to do so. Briere had his head down. If he does not, there is no hit to be made and chances are time just runs out. << the pens weren't coming back from 3 down in those 63 seconds, that check wasn't necessary. it does look good on youtube though. I don't know what laviolette was thinking send out mash unit simmonds and briere in that situation, i blame our coach as much as i do vitale, it doesn't make vitale a "classy guy" though >> Who said it makes Vitale a classy guy? I certainly does not make him "unclassy" or dirty. Not at all. He's a 4th liner who knows he only keeps his job if he goes 110% all the time. He does not have the luxury of taking a shift off...even a shift with 1:30 left. Sorry if that offends a Flyer fan (of all people) but that's the truth. "Blame" Vitale...interesting choice. Can't blame him for making a big hit? The only player to blame is Briere. << i don't think your team matches up very well with my team with a full quiver , which, now thanks to that hit and the unfortunate hit on grossman we don't have , we'll just have to rely on one of our good young guys instead of a proven playoff performer, and our shut down d man, but our young guys have proven themselves to be up to the task. >> Agree about not matching up. Funny how this season played out. You owned us. We owned the Rangers. The Rangers owned you. Weird.

So again...what did the Pens do wrong? I don't have any problem with sticking up for a teammate like the Flyers did...almost impossible for the guys on the ice to know at the time if that hit is legal or not. But don't sit there and point the finger at the Pens and accuse them of sending a message or act like they started that mess. Just because the whole incident made Lavi's ****** itch doesn't mean he's right. And yes - there is a difference between legal and dirty. My point exactly. It's also VERY hard to be both. Vitale's was legal and NOT dirty. The only case made that it was "dirty" so far was that the game was decided and there was little time left. Boo hoo. So if a team is down 8-1 going into the 3rd period all of the players should just skate around trying to score, All-Star game-style, and no one should make any big hits on the opposition. I mean really...this is the Flyers section, no? And Asham did not "sucker" Schenn. It was a scrum. It starts and punches are thrown. Hit or be hit. Now Schenn knows.

It's a 60 minute game. Not 58:30. You're telling me that if Letang were skating up ice with his head down and Rinaldo leveled him with a legal hit and Pens fans whined about it....you would agree with the Pens fans? Because that is the argument you are making. The Rinaldos and Vitales of the world go all-out all the time. Otherwise, they pack their bags for the AHL. If Rinaldo makes the same hit you applaud that all the way to the bank. Don't even try to deny that you would. The problem is Vitale "out-Flyered" a Flyer...and you don't like it.