Old School Hockey

@yave1964

 

I suppose you're eight (and not just about Tootoo ).  It's a benefit in disguise though...the less he gets hit, the healthier his back stays, so I won't knock it.  

 

Is it hockey season yet?

 

@Old School Hockey

 

I'm not worried about DDK at all.  He'll be resigned.  There just negotiating the terms now, but he'll get he wants.  Considering Quincey got a pay raise, DeKeyser can just about name his own price and be approved.  If they let him go, Holland will have that contract extension crammed you-know-where and be run out of town.

Only after DeKeyser is resigned should he be resigned.

Look at that in Detroit! I real GM does something to improve his team!!

Wonder if Dave D can run two teams?

What bad UFA year! Nashville did better than Detroit!

No, Bowman never ever had control of personnel. It was a power struggle between Bowman and Holland, after Devellano retired, both wanted control, Scotty kept threatening to retire year in year out but Holland stayed calm and continued to run the organization. I have two books, brilliantly written in the era, Bowman was and is the greatest coach of all time, but he, even in his own autobiography comes across as rather childish in his failed power play to take over control of every aspect of the team. A great coach, a brilliant mind, but Holland ran the club and brought in Hull, Robitaille and Haske, dealing Kozlov and allowing Lapointe and Osgood to move on to make it work. They had a difficult relationship but Holland ran the front office and was in charge of all personnel decisions.

Not trying to get into pissing contest with you but!

Detroit Red Wings coach Scotty Bowman will take on additional duties as director of player personnel, team owner Mike Ilitch said Friday. "This is a departure from the traditional title of general manager," Ilitch said. "Scotty's focus will be specifically on the NHL level, such as all trades and signings involving the Red Wings." Ilitch this week had promoted Ken Holland to assistant general manager. Holland will oversee pro and amateur scouting and the annual entry draft.

Okay, the case for Kenny Holland

 

 He was drafted by the Leafs but soon was a member of the Wings organization as a goalie, and actually played 3 games for the Wings. He hung around after retiring, as one of Jimmy Devellano's right hand men, he was a behind the scenes guy who was in charge of scouting, bringing in talent such as Sergei Federov, Nick Lidstrom, Marty Lapointe and essentially the guys who made up the nineties powerhouse.

 

  When Jimmy D retired following the 1997 cup win, Holland took over and served as the GM of the 1998, 2002, and 2008 Stanley cup winning teams. During his tenure his team has never once failed to make the playoffs. He, as a protégé of the great Devellano knows how to surround himself with the best and the brightest minds without fear of them taking his job. Some guys in his position would never in a million years dream of having guys like Nill, Yzerman, Paul McLean, Todd McClellan surrounding him. Many others would never have the guts to allow a guy like Babs as the head coach out of fear that his coach might set his sight upon his job.

  In short, Holland has been in the organization since 1983-84, for 30 years he has given his heart and soul to the team and the second best era of the teams history next to the Gordie Howe early fifties dynasty has occurred under his watch.

 

   Some fans, such as myself, are spoiled and want a cup every year. I grew up with the Dead Things of the seventies and never wavered in my love and devotion to the team. This run of the Wings is near an end, like a child of the depression era who lives in fear of becoming poor again, I live in fear of the Wings becoming bad again, though truth be told there is no better drafter in the Wings history and possibly any teams history for this long than Holland. The cupboard, both at forward and to a slightly lesser extent even at the blue line is full, sometimes I feel like chicken little worrying about the sky falling. He has won, surrounded himself with the best and the brightest without fear or favor, and although he drives me nuts with his conservative nature unlike a lot of clubs we are not good one year and horrid the next. They seem to have retooled on the fly, it is a damn shame we swung and missed on the free agent d-men but from what I read he offered more than several of them received elsewhere, including Boyle and Erhoff, both of my choices to fill the point. He was voted as the second best executive of the decade for the decade just past, and was 5th in the previous as well, this is not just Hockey but all sports.

  So yeah, I still think Holland should hang it up and I was hoping Nill would hang in there long enough to take the helm, the fact is he learned from the best in Holland. I am not going to retract any previous statements but will wait it out, he is one hell of an executive and I hope he makes the deal we need for a d-man. He wont make the wrong deal just to make a trade.

Correct me I'm wrong but prior to the 2002-2003 season didn't Bowman have control of player personnel?

@yave1964  I admit his UFA signings have been putrid. D don't see how Jim Nill gets all credit for drafting those kids. Inevitably, Holland makes the call, Nill just recommended the kids. You guys are just way to harsh on Holland. He has assembled an awesome stable of young talent. He has assured the Wings will be in the running for the cup well after Datsuyk and Zetts hang up the skates.

 

 Pretty sure Holland had to give Quincey a raise, I think the rule is a 10% raise from last years salary. If the Wings let Kenny go, he would be employed within 24 hours.

Both Zetterberg and Datsyuk were Bowman guys! Holland gets ZERO credit for them. But he did resign Cleary, Franzen (at the expense of Hossa), Huskins, Quincey, Weiss, Modano, Tootoo, Legwand and the list goes on.

Simply put he can't attract top notch talent.

Here it is!

"Had the odd call, but for the most part it's slowed down," Holland said. "It goes slow now for July and August. In past years once (top) free agents are off the market and money is spent things get slow."

"I explored trades through June, couldn't find a fit," Holland said. "Now I sense a quiet three, four, five weeks. In the meantime I'll reach out to some of those (GMs)"

I'm so tired of his "couldn't find a fit"!

Okay how about his trades then or lack thereof?

 

Six weeks of Legwand for solid prospect Jarnkrok and a 2nd round pick. Yuck

 

Brad Stuart to the Sharks for a 6th rounder. Fair deal, helping Stu out.

 

Kyle Quincey for a first. Ahem

 

Going all the way back to 2007 that is it, other than the add or drop of a Huskins or Commodore for a 7th rounder. That is absolutely it. The Stuart deal was a wash, helping him out, we got fleeced in the other two.

 

  And lets look at who we didn't deal, Happy Hudler and Val Filpulla were gone like a cool breeze after their contracts, Hudler signed with Calgary and Filpula with Tampa, if you know you are not resigning them and they do not fit your plans, get something for them. Maybe trade Val at the deadline a few years ago rather than let him walk, add a Wideman or someone like him.

 

  And speaking of Commodore, he was an UFA the same offseason as Souray, we could have had either, we chose Commodore. Souray had a solid season with Dallas then Anaheim before his injury.

  So yeah, I am sick as hell of Holland, I am sure he knows more than I do, but I also think the majority of GM's in the game today have passed him by and a wonderful Hockey mind is now way past his prime and needs to go. He doesn't trade, 3 in 8 years, his free agent signees are wretched, his misses are glaring, key players like Hossa, Hudler and Filpulla get away for nothing. He chose Franzen over Hossa when the two of them were free agents. I cannot think of anything for him to hang his hat on except for a bunch of recent first or second round knockouts.

2008 were for the most part all Bowman leftovers. Remembering of course Bowman still the man until he left for Chicago. Holland gets very little praise for 2008.

@Old School Hockey In all fairness, I don't think you go into camp with what is there right now. Don't know how much Holland will tinker/alter the line-up as a whole, but I'd be willing to bet some type of new d-man will be in the top 6 before it's all said and done.....just a hunch.

Unless he pulls off a blockbuster deal this off season has been a bust. IMO it started in 09 when he picked Franzen over Hossa! And it's gone down hill since as has the success of the team.

@WingNut722@J0e Th0rnton

 

Dan Freaking broke down hasn't done nuthin for two years at least Cleary. The hits go on and on.

 

  On the bright side, Wilson beat Holland to John Scott. Heh heh heh. That is all I got.

 

I am still holding out for the Wings to sign David Booth and Del Zotto, but Holland is likely to bring back Darren McCarty and Rick Zombo instead.

Not forgetting Lilja and Lebda!

Now let's talk about Holland! His big splash is Quincey and Cleary.

I know it is a tough situation to be in! But unless the cap grows more than any of us think it will, you just can't have 30% of your cap go to two players.

So the two superstar players will be playing with a lot of young guys. And young guys want raises too.

It's a tough situation.

Well Chicago welcome back to cap hell.

@Old School Hockey@jammer2

Agreed, Lidstrom is gone, one of the all time greats.

What I am frustrated with beyond belief is that Holland in the two years, now going on three since Lidstrom retired, has done nothing. Zilch. Look at our current rotation of defenseman.

Kronwall

Ericsson

Quincey

Smith

Lashoff

Kindl

All were in the organization at the time of Lidstrom's retirement. Kronwall IMHO is stretched thin as a number one, I loved when Lidstrom/Rafalski were our top pair allowing 2nd pair minutes to Kronwall. He is a hell of a player but just a bit out of his true role. The rest are ordinary and even boring.

The only addition to the blue line was Dekeyser who as a non drafted college player from Michigan fell into the Wings laps. That is it. An untested college kid, a few minutes from people like Colaiacovo and Huskins but really nothing has been done to help our dreadfully boring defense.

You cannot replace Lidstrom. Agreed one thousand times over. You CAN improve the blue line and the power play. That is Holland's number one sin, forget the wretched contracts to Samuelsson, Tootoo, Bertuzzi, Cleary, Weiss and the rest, his number one unforgivable mistake is not improving our blue line with a power play specialist. I know Del Zotto has weaknesses, so does Jovanovski, but can anyone truly say that they aren't better gambles than Lashoff? Or Quincey? Or Kindl? Until we address the power play, especially the point, this team is ordinary at best.

I'm with you 1000%. IMO Holland lost it all when Suter went to Minn. He knew Stuart was leaving. He should have blown and I mean blown Suter out of the water with his offer. Give him no reason to look elsewhere. I'm talking Weber money. But no he put out an equal offer (give or take) and depended allure of Detroit to push Suter to Detroit. Funny part we'd probably have Parise too instead of Weiss.

Holland needs to get over the fact that Detroit does NOT have the allure it did before.

You should read the Metzler thread....some insight on Del Zotto....he is not what the Wings need. He might fix a pp problem, but the play in his own end makes it to risky of a venture.

I think we (Wings fans and the NHL) have to come to grips with the fact that Lidstrom is retired and there isn't a defenseman in the NHL anywhere close to him. And may never will be again.

Petry would bring local flavor (Dan's boy) but it seems whenever I watch him he is putrid. He scored an own goal against the Wings last year, the year before Datsyuk humiliated him all night long in a game. I watched a game last year against Calgary where he was a minus 3 or maybe minus 4. I know it is a rather small sample, I don't watch a ton of Oiler games but he is bad whenever I see him. Every single time.

  The opposite happens sometimes too. Michael Scarbossa, a mediocre prospect for the Avalanche plays for the Lake Erie Monsters. Well, during the lockout a couple of years ago, I went to Cleveland and watched the Monsters four times and I swear every single time I saw them play Scarbossa scored at least one goal. And I watched him twice on TV as well and he scored in those games as well. So I understand that it can just be a fluky thing, either that or Scarbossa is the second coming of Gretzky which I doubt, lol.

  How about Michael Del Zotto? He is only 24, put up a 41 point season the year he could start drinking legally. The Predators let him go, we could get him cheap and I have always been high on him.

I think Petry has a big upside. How many times did we see Stuart score on our goalie? Lol

Del Zotto? Don't know enough about him? He not a big player.

What about (can't believe I'm saying this because loath him) Green?

What about Jeff Petry? Local boy that's an RFA.

Any thoughts?

@yave1964 Helen St.James latest column discusses the pros and cons of trading for Tyler Myers. Don't think there is any legs on this one, it's just Helen speculating.

http://www.freep.com/article/20140706/SPORTS05/307060063/tyler-myers-sabres-detroit-red-wings?odyssey=obinsite

I have read several articles about a Myers trade. It seems the steaks are too high. I’m hear Buffalo want one of the following: Nyqusit, Jurco or Tatar. After the Legwand trade I’m not so sure I’d like to see another good young leave. Now if they want Quincey and a pick I’m for it.

As I said earlier they're documented in the lawsuit and we found them the last time we did all this so they are documented. It's the validity some argued but 5 different medical Ted agreed for the most part.

Would you (not being a dick) mind providing a link?

Simple answer. If he accepted the contract offer and was either unable to play or simply put on waivers after he weakened his case for restitution significantly. Add that to his doctors saying he would not be cleared to play and the NHL's own comp insurance providers BOTH agreeing he would not be medically cleared and you have the offer for what it was... A legal ploy by the NHL to reduce liability for court.

The proof of brain damage lay in the medical teams' diagnosis of long term effects post concussion damage. The hospital trauma staff and both insurer's again agreed with the findings.

Until the medical issues are made public it's 100% hearsay for us to debate!

Old school, I have spoken my mind to the nth degree on the subject in here. Moore is going to make Millions, likely tens of millions by the time it is done. Not worth getting so worked up about. But no, to me, a person is a person is a person, a wino, a CEO, we are go from the  stink of the diddy to the stench of the shroud. Moore is going to get paid much, much more than he would have a decade ago if the league had treated this as a unique case and settled long ago.

Old school, I have spoken my mind to the nth degree on the subject in here. Moore is going to make Millions, likely tens of millions by the time it is done. Not worth getting so worked up about. But no, to me, a person is a person is a person, a wino, a CEO, we are go from the  stink of the diddy to the stench of the shroud. Moore is going to get paid much, much more than he would have a decade ago if the league had treated this as a unique case and settled long ago.

The point is workers are compensated based on their worth. And Moore is not Yzerman.

I feel Moore should be compensated. But not in the Yzerman, Jagr, Fedorov level.

Ok. Would a $15/hour employee get compensated the same a CEO for the same attack? And that's really not that far off when comparing Moore to an NHL player.

Tough question goes unanswered. Do we realize what Moore is asking for is more than Yzerman made?

That's the thing though... It's about potential. The man has a documented 130+ IQ and now has brain damage. What if he'd played say... Six years in the NHL then got into coaching or marketing or became an agent? How much could he have made? Or even on a two way contract how much would he have made?

Now add his damages which the Canadian cap DOES allow to go higher for life changing injuries according to some Canadian attorneys...

Bertuzzi's worth doesn't matter. The aftermath of his actions does.

Any YOU have proof of said brain damage? Come on man his attorney's are trumping everything up.

Here's a very simple question? If he's so bad off why did his legal team forbid Moore from entertaining the contract offer he was offered and let the physical tell the story?

No, forget hockey. We are talking about a human being who was injured on the job by a malicious incident in which his coworker pled guilty. It is about a criminal assault that is now down to compensatory damages being awarded. Nothing else. It is not about Hockey, it is about life. Of course my wife wears a shirt that says Hockey is life, so that may be where my argument falls apart.

  Using your argument, if a rich guy breaks the neck of a wino does that mean he is any the less financially liable simply because the man was a vagrant? I personally cannot see that through.

Ok. Would a $15/hour employee get compensated the same a CEO for the same attack? And that's really not that far off when comparing Moore to an NHL player.