elmatus

I can understand folks not wanting to pull the plug on this roster. I was there not so long ago for just about ten long years. As has been said a number of times now, there's only so much anyone's going to get from this bunch. The best they've mustered in this decade is some reasonably good runs in the second half of a couple seasons. That's no where near good enough for ten years of building around the same core players. Clearly, folks will have differing opinions on this stuff. Personally, I do not think this roster can compete for a cup as assembled. I don't think getting a veteran 30 some dman will solve the issues that have plagued this team now for ten years. I don't think adding someone with "leadership ability" will change anything either. The simplest and most likely reason for why the team has not ever been true contenders in the past decade is that they just can't. That's not something to be ashamed of either. Over the same ten years, really only maybe 4-5 teams have been consistent contenders, with maybe another 2-3 coming in and out of that zone. The vast majority of teams in this league have been no where near the stanley cup over this same timeframe. Sure, maybe they all lacked leadership, or drive to win games. Maybe they all had piss poor effort and didn't see the point of playing after signing their contracts. I suppose that is a possibility... but I can't say it's a realistic one. Much like the Flyers, the most likely reason why the majority of NHL teams have not been contenders is simply because their rosters are likewise just not good enough. The talent they have on offer just can't cut it. Unlike many of those teams, the Flyers have been good enough to make the playoffs many years during this decade. They've been abysmal once in the playoffs of course, with nothing but garbage play to show for their efforts. They've done this all while changing coaches and GMs, with none of that making any difference in terms of real success on the ice when it counts. This team needs a major roster change in a very real way. They need a true franchise-defining player or two to build around. Cam York is not that guy. Morgan Frost is not that guy. TK and Farabee are not that guy. We need at least one if not two players who are truly a cut above in terms of pure talent and skill, otherwise we will very likely lose to teams who do have those guys.

I'm curious if anyone has a good sense of what would make for good trades and moves to get this team on a better track. Personally, I've been pretty vocal about my feelings that the team as it stands really can't win. The roster as assembled just isn't skilled enough. If it were, we wouldn't be a bubble team for ten years, consistently getting wrecked in the first round if we even make the playoffs at all. This same scenario has played out for long enough to consider that the pieces themselves as assembled just aren't good enough to win it all. So, what would you do? I would like to see Giroux, Hayes, and Voracek moved for good rebuild pieces. I can't say I follow other teams prospect pools very closely, so it's hard for me to really get at decent potential trades. Here's an attempt at getting the convo started: First up is Giroux. I know some folks hate the guy, but the truth is he remains a very good player that any team would benefit from having. He is absolutely a top six guy on virtually any team in the NHL. That said, there's still a question of fit for a guy like Giroux. He's over 30, and probably doesn't have more than a couple seasons of really good hockey left. He also has a NMC. Both of those things suggest to me that he would have to be moved to a team that is a contender right now and is in need of a playmaking top six forward. Teams I would consider buyers include: TOR, COL, CAR, EDM, VGK, FLA, TBL, MTL, NYI, WSH, PIT, BOS PIT pretty clearly would never happen ever (for fear of riots in the streets), so they can be dropped immediately from the list. Of the remaining teams, I feel like shipping to a team within the division is quite unlikely generally, so let's drop NYI and WSH. The rest I do think are probably fair game. What would Giroux want? Well, that's a lot harder to figure out. For the sake of this talk, I'll just assume he would be cool with going anywhere that allows him to contend in the short term -- or at least that he could be convinced to do so. What's the starting point? For me, he needs to bring back a 1st round pick in 2022, and something else of considerable value (ideally a promising prospect, but other things might work too). That really should be a very minimum return for a guy of his caliber. If Fletch can't get that for a guy as productive as Giroux, he's just awful at his job. Some possible options (again this is with my very limited knowledge of other prospect pools in the league): VGK: Peyton Krebs and 2022 1st round pick COL: Alex Newhook and 2022 1st round pick MTL: Cole Caulfield and 2022 1st round pick (most unlikely imo, as i think MTL sees Caulfield as a big part of their future) Second on the list is Hayes. I should start by saying I do appreciate Hayes, and I do think he's a good player to have. The contract though... I mean, it was pretty much always a mistake. Let's make it someone else's mistake while he remains a moveable asset. Unfortunately, part of that mistake includes a NMC, which means he too is probably contender bound. So we're pretty much left with the same list as those mentioned for Giroux above. The other challenge is that Hayes is a depth player signed for way too long. So he simply won't command the same level of return as Giroux. I'm not sure exactly what could be the return for a guy like him, but we're probably looking at some sort of middling prospect and maybe a 2nd round pick or something or some combination of a 2nd and 3rd round pick. The crap part is that does feel like underselling him, as he is more impactful than that. Unfortunately his contract is likely to be a major burden in terms of potential trade returns. Third on the list is Voracek. He has no NMC, but more than likely he too would be mostly of interest to a contender. It would be nice to get another 2022 1st round pick for him, as well as maybe a 2nd or 3rd round pick. I don't think that's unreasonable either. He may be aggravating to watch, but he does still produce at an above average clip. He could be attractive to a contender needing mid-six scoring depth, which many of them do. Thoughts?

Meh. Personally, I’m not very interested in deals that don’t focus on a rebuild. Giroux, Voracek, and Hayes should be the first to go, and the return should primarily be rebuild resources i think. Marc Staal is a decent player, but he won’t really give us what we most need which is better young talent or picks to possibly obtain that talent.

I mean, he probably has. I would, and I've been a fan for much longer than he has (presumably).

yeah, this is definitely the big if. He may very well not be much more interested in being a Flyer right now than he is being a Jacket. Still, if the rumours are true that CLS is shopping him, Fletch better have his hand on the dial.

He’s UFA and rumour has it he’s not willing to sign there again. Can’t say i blame him.

haha. Well except that Jones still has a lot of years ahead of him. It’s not like getting an aging dman to shore us up for a playoff run. This is a guy who would be fantastic to have around for some number of years yet.

Actual rumor but one based on three huge assumptions:1) The Blue Jackets can't get him to agree to an extension this offseason and do not want to risk another Panarin and Bobrovsky situation of him walking for nothing in the 2022 offseason.2) He would be more agreeable to an extension here rather than testing the market.3) The Flyers would offer the best trade package among teams that would put in offers.That's a whole lot of ifs before something like that would be realistic. And just how much would have to go back the other way? A lot. ???????? I would love to have Jones on this team. I'm curious what it would take to get the job done given the circumstances, but he would be a fantastic add. What would it take to get a guy like him to want to sign here for some term is the big question. It's entirely possible he would want a contender, or something close to it at the very least. I'm sure we could package something to get him. I'm just worried he wouldn't want to be here long term, and I definitely hope Fletch wouldn't make any kind of trade to get him unless he already has a guaranteed signing beforehand. Furthermore, how much would be too much and for too long and with what clauses would it take to get this done? I'm having flashbacks to the Hayes incident, which is a contract we're all guaranteed to hate in very short order. Granted, imo Jones is a much better guy to lock in if possible than Hayes ever was, but there are limits. Tricky situation for sure, but he would immediately be the best dman on the roster. So if there's any truth to this possibility at all, Fletch should absolutely be making calls.

I forget. Was he later traded or just bought out?

This may be an agree to disagree situation for us. I don't think they've lost drive or desire or will or whatever other hard to discern metric. I think they're just not skilled enough as assembled. I also don't think we have a stable that will allow us to contend any time soon. We need higher end prospects that we simply don't have right now. Giroux has been a good soldier for us. He did the best he could with the cards he was dealt. I don't think anyone aside from Lavy truly ever considered him top four in the league. He has pretty much always been top 20 or so, which is great, but that's not enough to build a contender around. His ability to play at a highly productive level for large periods of time made him hard to gauge in terms of potential. Homer and Hexy bit on the gamble that he could be that guy, and it turns out they were wrong. We can point out that he should never have been considered a franchise guy, and that's fair. The truth is that no other player on our team has been more productive than him this decade. Couts is only now getting to a level where he's comparable. Put another way, I highly doubt anyone currently on the team or in our current prospect pool will ever produce at the levels he has in his time here. No one else on this team right now will ever hit 100 pts. Hell, even 80-90 pts will be a career year, and is probably only attainable by Couts with a solid sniper wingman. At any rate, even if it is a question of "drive" or what have you, it really doesn't change anything in terms of what this team needs imo. They need to trade Giroux, Hayes, and Voracek this off season at a minimum, and they need to start looking at stacking picks for the 2022-23-24 draft years. 2022 especially should be a high target right now, given how that year appears to be one of the best classes in quite a long time. Move those three pronto for as many relevant picks and prospects you can get, and consider moving others too if it makes sense. I would keep Couts, Provo, and Hart, and some others I would likely not move unless I get a significant return, particularly TK and Farabee. But largely I think the team should be entertaining all offers and looking to get a proper rebuild started.

Honestly, i feel like the best comparison for Giroux is probably Nick Backstrom. Both have a similar skill set and are in the club of elite playmakers over a similar timeframe. The huge difference between them of course is that Backstrom was never the top dog on his team. He always rode shotgun, and in his case he rode shotgun to the greatest sniper of recent memory. Washington also managed to snag a lot of high caliber players in the Ovi era, which shows in how consistent they’ve been as a team. And yeah, the playoffs have not been kind to them during that time, but they’ve always been contenders with a good shot. By comparison, our team has been nowhere near that levek of consistent success. All to say that i have a very hard time laying blame at the feet of a guy who turned out to be one of the most productive playmakers we’ve ever had. He’s never been a generational talent, and really shouldn’t be the number one guy, but he’s definitely in the small club of very good players over his career.

the scalpel approach is exactly why the current roster is among the worst performing teams in the league. It’s time to pull out the hatchet. The draft is always a lottery sure, but it’s very heavily weighted in favour of top picks. If we want to build a contender, we should put chance on our side. Yeah, i’m saying exactly this. The team will suck. That doesn’t mean it’s not worth it. The team already sucks now after all. We might go from bottom ten to bottom five, but so what?

I'm late to the party with this one and probably going to end up just repeating a bunch of peeps, but whatever. Lots of good convo in here. Feels like a lot of folks saying largely the same thing but shouting past each other at times. What's wrong with this team? Well, ten years ago it was decided that Giroux was the kind of guy a team could be built around. We had a GM who opted to build via the draft and developing players, and who did whatever he could to not fully tank. Hexy clearly wanted to have a team that remained competent enough to at least make the playoffs, all while hoping he could develop key young players to build around Giroux. Voracek showed some promise early, so the thinking was maybe Giroux and Voracek could be a one-two punch in this case. This proved to be wrong. Hexy and the brass clearly overvalued Giroux and Voracek. They're good players. They're above average in terms of production for sure. Giroux especially is one of the most productive players this franchise has ever had. BUT, it turned out he's not the elite level guy Hexy hoped he would be, and building around him proved to not be good enough. Similarly, the young players we managed to get as a bubble team over ten years really haven't been slam dunk successes. IMO, it's hard to fault Hexy for this. If you're looking for elite talent, anything outside the top five is a crap shoot, and beyond top ten is basically a question of winning some lottery. It's worth noting Giroux was one such success story though. He's not franchise-level elite, but he definitely proved to be a fantastic player given his draft placement. Ghost came around like a fireball, and then faded away just as quickly. Couturier is another pro for sure. In my mind, he has developed into pretty much exactly what he was expected to, which is a very good two-way player. I don't think he's productive enough to be that franchise level guy to build around either, but he's got a lot of the right tools and is a great asset to any team. The fact he's really out best player right now though is not a great thing. If we want to contend, we need someone better than him leading the charge, and we don't have that player. Hakstol was an idiot coach, and the team was saddled with him for way too long. For some reason that baffles me completely, Hexy chose to stand by his man to the bitter end. Commendable I guess, but it was a ridiculous choice and certainly didn't help things. Is it all bad? No. Provorov is still a very good defender who likely needs some guidance to get back on track. Some of the kids have shown inconsistent flashes, including TK and Farabee. My guess is both of them are mid-six guys who can pinch up if needed, but that's fine. We need guys like that. We've been a bubble team forever, and have gotten horrible luck with nabbing the worst 2nd overall pick of the past decade. This team desperately needs a proper rebuild with some very high potential players to actually build around, rather than a guy in Giroux who has really done the best he could, but who probably never should have been that guy. What should be done about it? Others have said it, but the team should be very much on the market. This season is a write off. There is no way at all this roster can be contenders as assembled. Don't waste time getting 30 some veteran dmen or whatever. Just call it done, and move on. Every player should be available for the right price. I would place very high prices on guys like Couts, Hart, and Provo, and I probably wouldn't actively shop any of them. I likely wouldn't shop Farabee and TK either, but I would at least take the call to see what's on offer. Giroux should be traded in the off season. It's tricky but doable. I'm sure the guy would like to win a cup before he retires, and he's likely got a couple more seasons of good hockey left in him. Find a contender, get him to waive his NMC, and get as much as possible for him in terms of rebuilding assets. If we need to retain salary to get a better return, so be it. He's not on the books for long anyway. Voracek is similar, with the caveat being that he won't likely fetch a very big return. Still, at least shop him around and see what teams would offer. If something worthwhile comes around for a rebuilding team, take it. Take picks if that's all you can get. He's going to be a major lame duck (even worse than now) with a weaker team. There's no sense keeping him if there's any value to be had. Trade Hayes pronto. This is the worst contract on the team by far, and Fletch should be shopping him like mad to be rid of it now before it becomes a headache. It was a bad contract the moment is was inked, but it could have been worth a gamble if the team was a depth center away from a cup. Turns out this team is not. This should be a big priority in the off season. He's very moveable given that he has played reasonably well here. Move him now before the contract becomes an anchor. Trade JVR for picks or something. If he can't be moved, which is possible, then whatever. Hopefully Seattle takes him. The same goes for pretty much anyone else not mentioned above. Will the team suck if any of that happens? Yep. Very suck. It's not like they're great now, and suckage means we might get lucky finally and get some quality top five picks to actually build a team around. The 2022 draft in particular is reported to be the potentially best draft year since 2003. Aim for that year and the following couple after it and load up on as many quality prospects as possible. Oh, and get rid of Therrien and Yeo. They were always garbage, and they're still garbage. Give AV the option of staying for a rebuild. If he's not interested, which is entirely likely, then can his rear also. I don't fault AV for the problems with this team, but I don't want a coach who came here expecting a contender and ends up all crabby about how poorly it turned out in the end. Oh, and for the love of whatever anything you happen to hold dear, would you please fire Lappy. I can't even.

I feel like this is a case where we're essentially just agreeing on pretty much everything. Of the guys you mentioned, Giroux is just not as good as most of them (imho). I'd say he compares well enough to a guy like Backstrom, but the rest are definitely all better players than Giroux, and Voracek is not in that same tier at all. It's worth noting Backstrom has had the best sniper of this generation on his wing (and vice versa). It's entirely possible we'd have a cup too if Giroux were riding shotgun to Ovechkin. There's a decent argument to be made that the lack of an elite sniper is one of the biggest challenges we've had for a long time now. But all of that is just imaginary. The bottom line again is that this roster just doesn't have the necessary skill to be contenders, which I think is also your point. I didn't always think this way. I'll admit that for a good time (say 2011-2017 or so), I was willing to give the team time to build around this core and figure things out. Two GMs and some number of coaches have now tried and failed. To me, that suggests the problem is more fundamentally related to the talent they've had to work with. They don't have enough skill. @CoachX To your point, they weren't good enough last year either. They made the playoffs well enough. Then they proceeded to ride a tight series against the 24th overall team, who would never have come close to even being there in a normal year, and eventually got absolutely obliterated by a team that was itself a solid tier behind the eventual winners. Bottom line, they weren't good enough last year. They weren't good enough the year before either. This is a bubble team at best, which is exactly what they've been for virtually all of the last decade. This year is no different. Could this team make the playoffs this year? Yeah, for sure. Half the league makes the playoffs in the end. Can this team win a round? Er... probably not. Can they win two or more rounds? Not without some absurd amount of luck. They're just not good enough.

I mean, those are very good point totals... He's in pretty great company with those numbers. A lot of talk seems to be a question of leadership. I feel like that's just a red herring honestly. None of us knows what kind of actual leaders these vets are. For all we know, maybe they're saying all the right things at all the right times. Or maybe they say some of the right things some of the time (seems the most likely). At the end of the day though, I've said before how I really don't think we need to bring concepts like leadership or drive into the equation. We just can't get an accurate read of stuff like that from any couch. What we can very easily see from our respective couches is that this team is not at all up to snuff. They're not good enough. Period. They don't have the skill level needed to be contenders in the NHL. We don't need to add extenuating factors. There's no way these guys have decided to coast and stop caring for the past 5-6 years or whatever window makes sense to anyone here. Morale is no doubt very low right now, so it makes sense they might be feeling that way now, but there's just no way in my mind that these guys have been in a zero f***s state for ten years, certainly not when a much more plausible and evident reason is available to us -- they suck. Well, they don't suck. They're just not good enough to win at the NHL level. That's really the easiest most likely reason for all of this. I know that hurts to say. Because that's essentially admitting this team's biggest need is a very significant reworking of the roster from the top down, but that's where I believe we're at. While tweaks could maybe help somewhat (getting a dman or two for instance), I highly doubt anything like that will be enough. What we need is more talented and skilled players than what this team currently has available. Until we get that, I really don't think this team will take any big step forward.

Yeah for sure there are players like this. Laine may very well be that kind of guy. Certainly that is the reputation he's developed. He isn't the only one either. I have a feeling Erik Karlsson's drop to the bottom of the hole has a lot to do with his lack of s**ts to give also. Sergeant Bankruptsy down in San Jose probably falls on this list too. Not to mention perennial trade favourites like Hall and Duchene. Whether the rumours are completely true about those guys, I dunno, but I have to think there's something there along those lines. There are whatever amount of players like that for sure. That said, I do think that ultimately the vast majority of players who get to the NHL want to play well enough to be recognized as phenomenal players. I don't think they're all just paying for a paycheck. I've never heard that of Giroux or Voracek or Couturier or Provorov or JVR for that matter (though it would actually seem far more plausible in his case given his record). @OccamsRazor seems to apply quite well here in fact. Sure, we can sit and offer a bunch of additional reasons why the team sucks. Every time we add conjecture though, we're more than likely straying further and further away from the otherwise simpler truth. They're not winning more consistently, because they just can't. They're not good enough. If they were good enough, they would be winning more. I really don't think we need to make up any other excuses.

This. This right here. We can talk leadership and accountability and making guys skate for five days at sprint levels all we want, it won't change what the current roster is actually capable of doing. They don't lack some sort of whimsical quality like leadership, or desire, or whatever. They're just collectively and individually not good enough when compared to a number of other teams in the league. Is some of last night an AV thing? Yeah maybe. A Fletch thing? Yeah, maybe. Was is some sort of anomaly? Yeah, most definitely it was. They're not going to suddenly lose every game by nine goals. And if they had been playing well up until just last night, I'd be much more willing to look beyond it and consider it just a road bump in an otherwise okay road. Ultimately though, winning consistently in this game requires players who have a skill set that is fundamentally better, both individually and collectively, to beat out ~30 other teams, and I just don't think this roster has that very basic thing. They're not good enough. Period. They've had plenty of time to show it, and they keep falling short. Here's the thing, I'm 100% sure every single player in that locker room would much rather win than lose. No one reaches this level of play with a laissez-faire attitude towards competition. It's impossible. They're not a contending team because the players as assembled are just not good enough to be a contending team. Full stop. It's not rocket science. It's not some sort of mind trick or whatever. No amount of screaming at this team is going to change any of that either. To the point others have made here also: This team is not one Ekholm away from being consistently good. Ekholm isn't Gretzky. He alone cannot possibly make up the difference here. The teams needs a significant face lift that goes well beyond just grabbing one vet dman.

I'm with you in that I think a rebuild is on the horizon. The question is more whether the management can see this. If they can, they should definitely trade Giroux this off season (if possible). He is worth a good amount now to a contender, but he won't be in another couple years. Move him while the return is still good. Same with Voracek, though they'd get less for him. JVR may have increased his stock this year a bit, but I really don't think many GMs are looking at him with that much recency bias. I'm sure he could be moved, but it wouldn't be for any huge amount. It would possibly be similar to moving Voracek with the year he's having. Still, move all three and you should get some amount of rebuild stuff back. Move Ghost too (the price here would be abysmal, but probably some picks or something). And move Patrick. Why sit on the kid in the feint hopes that he'll finally show something he really never has? He may fetch something of a return still based on some sort of untapped potential, so take it and run. To my previous point though, losing all those guys (and most especially Giroux) will mean this team is going to be scraping the bottom of the barrel for some amount of years. If they go down this route, we the fanbase need to recognize we're in for some even worse hockey for a good bit of time.

I don't hate this. I don't really think it makes us into a contender or anything, but I don't hate it. I have to assume they'd nab Voracek in this scenario, though I guess JVR could make a case if he continues on the year he's been having. I don't think Lindblom or NAK have shown enough on the ice to merit being picked up, unless it's a question of wanting to use the cap space on other players elsewhere. And clearly no GM worth their salts would even sniff at Hagg or Braun. That would be Chiarelli-level bad. Where's Laughton though in this scenario? I could see him being a target.

I strongly doubt Fletch would go down this road, but you're absolutely right that Couts would net a significant return. The question definitely should be asked whether this team is in need of a proper rebuild. If the answer is yes, then two things need to happen: 1) Giroux needs to be traded for the best return we can get (also Jake, though the return would be less for sure) 2) We all collectively have to brace for a number of very bad seasons On point one, Giroux may get disparaged here, but he's one of the most consistent point producers in the league over the last decade. He would absolutely fetch a solid return from a contender who is in win now mode. In fact, adding a guy of his caliber in a role like that could very well be a huge boon to whatever team would get him. If this happens, and he goes to a team that is right now in a contender position, we should be ready to cry when we see him in the finals, cause that could absolutely happen. On point two, the team right now has been a bubble team for at least 5-6 years. They're a bubble team again this year, despite what some might suggest is them "not living up to whatever expectations". BUT, losing the core vets who have been our top point producers over this 5-6 span is almost definitely going to mean a hit to our ability to win games. Put another way: if you think they're hard to watch now, wait till you watch them without the only guy on staff who routinely hits 80+ pts per season, and the one of only a few who happen to get another 60+ per. I'm not saying we shouldn't do it. In fact, I'm pretty much getting to a place where I feel like a rebuild is exactly what we do need. I'm just saying we need to understand what that would mean if it were to happen. We're not used to teams who are truly bottom dwellers. We're used to bubble teams. It would be like watching Buffalo or Detroit 50-82 games in a year. It may be exactly what we need, but we should be ready mentally for what that exactly means in terms of the skill we see on the ice.

This is where Chuck suits up and puts up a hatty.

There are so many confounding variables too. Fletch and AV aren’t the guys you bring in if you figure the team needs a rebuild. These are winning window guys — guys who are supposed to find ways to get the most out of already good pieces and build them into a contender. So i’m pretty doubtful this management will take the team into rebuild territory. Trading something like Provorov seems very unlikely either way, but even less so given the above. I would say the same for Couts and Hart. I would be shocked well beyond to see any of those three in a trade right now. Giroux? That’s a harder assessment for sure. Obviously there would be no shortage of teams who would want his services. At the same time, he is on the back end. To me, the teams who would be most interested in him are current contenders. I wonder what such teams would make sense and how.

i get this for sure. The question is mostly what can conceivably be done, and how much would it help? Getting Ekholm feels an awful lot like just doing something to do something. That’s not me saying we shouldn’t give it a shot, especially if the price tag is good as it looks to be if that rumour is true. I just don’t think he would make that much of a diff. This is a team relying on star alignments to win games right now. They’re essentially playing like the same bubble team they’ve been for at least 4-5 season. I feel like it would take more than an Ekholm to change that. it’s very possible the only cure here is a proper sea change with some awful seasons, very high picks, good drafting, and a hard move away from the core that hasn’t managed to figure it all out. but, shipping out Ghost and Gus for Ekholm and Arvidsson (who is a decent mid to bottom six in his own right) seems like an improvement to me anyway, so why not give it a shot?

if i’m being honest, i’m pretty doubtful Ekholm changes this team’s fortunes all that much. But if the price tag is a pair of underachievers, why not give it a shot? I know Ghost has been decent this year, but that’s not enough to make me forget the multiple seasons of meh to gross. He absolutely feels like a trade now candidate to me. Before he reverts to his usual underwhelming self. the picks do bother me a bit though. They’re essentially currency, and i do get that, but if this team does end up needing a proper rebuild, the picks will become pretty essential. Such a mess really. I’m happy i’m not Fletch

Rumour mill has this as Ekholm and Arvidsson for Ghost, Gus, and picks. Not sure what the picks are, but i don’t hate it. Ghost seems like a trade now candidate to me, and Gus has been pretty awful.