Bakanekimiwa

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It's there you're just choosing not to see it. I dunno what hurt him. None of us do. Contact with MacDonald due to Megna's push? Impact on the ice? Doesn't matter as I said Megna is the one that caused it. But ignoring the bogus head snap is more homer than I am on this one. I call my boys out when they do it, I'm calling yours too.

@murraycraven

It's ok to support Mason. It's okay to blame Megna. But I'm not the only one who sees the extra lunge made there. It is what it is. Megna's fault, but Mason gave a little extra.

ok Polaris... this is one strike in your delusional 3 strikes ignore box though. he was tracking the puck, you snap back when you're hit by surprise... it's called 'reaction'. and his was NOT 'overreaction'. Calling it 'overreaction' resides in the conjecture realm.

For overreaction, just watch any of the slew of Crosby's. I highly recommend his sliding halfway into his own zone after a face-off NON contact. I'm sure you know which clip this is. That would be the best reference for 'overreaction' I think we could possibly find from an NHL player. 

As per reports...

 

 

umm.. what reports? what I was just reading said he was feeling much better and eyeing return tomorrow. 

Invalid? So a player never strained a muscle overarching his back? Or hurt his neck hitting the ice? Watch the video of the hit, and find a valid reason for his head to snap back after it is no longer in contact with MacDonald's back. Was it a reflex reaction? Or embellishment. When the Pens do it its always embellishment. But when Mason does it...

http://twitpic.com/e0zte1/full

I argue that anyone ignoring the extra head snap instantly makes their own point invalid. A lot if Flyers fans see it, why don't you? Megna is still to blame for Mason's injury, as he caused the events. I just don't think the intent to injure is there, and feel Mason added a little oomph to the damage is all.

you are, what i like to call, wrong. that twitpic shows that he clearly did not snap his head back. in fact, it shows exactly what happened. megna made an extra shove on our defender to push him into our goalie. switch it around and place hartnell in place of megna. now you see it? 

i think it's quite amazing that you choose to ignore the stone cold fact(see what i did there?) that mason remained out for a playoff game and nearly a week later is *still* doubtful for sunday's game. 

seriously man... i think of you as a decent poster here, but this is really stretching any sort of credibility by claiming Mason embellished anything here. this goes beyond team loyalty, i mean, we're just not even in the same reality here. 

now, i suppose we need some independent analysis of this clip. i am willing to wager $$$ that most hockey fans without a horse in this race would agree that there is NO embellishment here. 

I don't dispute he's hurt. I think it's just as likely he's hurt by overacting as from the hit itself. Some other posters and I have beat this to death. We're not going to change each others' minds. Lol

i realize we're not gonna change each other's minds, but i gotta say, i'm surprised you see it this way. honestly, i cannot see the overacting and logic would certainly suggest it was not overacting since he sat out a playoff game. 

now, if he played last night and was fine.. maybe you'd have a point. as it is... with all due respect, your point is completely invalid here. 

My thoughts: I thought a lot of the problems we had were mental. Poor choices on dumps, weird decisions all over the ice, either because of nerves or whatever. It was just a strange game. I saw effort but most of it was misplaced and wasted.

 

I expect a better performance on Sunday now that that stinker is out of the way. I don't think it's panic time at all. It was one game. The goal of a split at MSG is still attainable.

 

If I'm Berube I tell the guys to relax, enjoy the moment, they are the better team. Now go prove it.

it's never time to panic.. until it's 0-2 and you go on the road. luckily, we're going home after next game. we get a win on sunday and we're golden. 

Then I'm watching more Flyers games than you. And you're missing the famous head snap after contact that gets used by Flyers fans agains Pens players when they do it. lol

well.. if Mason was embellishing... he deserves the award for best embellishment ever. I mean.. taking it so far to sit out gm1 of a playoff game takes embellishment to a new level. 

Complete bullsh*t post. Your defenseman got pushed into your goalie just like every other team in the league game in game out. Do we really have to discuss the homer view in every thread every day?! Simmonds and Hartnell do this repeatedly. We lost a game to a goal scored on crap like this the game prior. You guys are acting like babies over an every day hockey play and your precious Mason's embellishment.

I'm a little late to this one... but, wow. Yeah, it IS a bullsh*t post. However, Simmonds and Hartnell have never done what Schmegma did. There was an extra push of the D into the goalie that I have a real problem with. And, there was clearly NO embellishment there. 

I don't see how you can fault the HC. This "struggles with tight-checking teams" thing is on Giroux and only Giroux. Maybe that cross-check he took right after AndyMac scored hurt him bad. Maybe he was hurting all game. Whatever. The point is he's got to break thru those double-teams on his own. Speed - which he has - is the cure for double-teams. Faster decisions with the puck, more movement without the puck. Guys like him are capable of creating space. Up till now he's been a master of exploiting the space teams give him. Now they're not giving it to him - even on the PP they're going right after him. He's got to get quicker. While he's at it - take it to the net more, don't always wait for help, be the All-Star and put on a show. He's got the talent to do it.

No doubt... G has to elevate his play and find his own holes in the Rangers D. My problem with Berube from last night is I only saw G 'sneaked' out there on different lines maybe once? And I'm not sure it was even intentional, I think it was an early line change. 

Clearly, nothing was working last night. I would have liked to see the coach try to juggle some line combos, at least, to try to get G out there against different D combos. He didn't seem to do this... correct me if I'm wrong. 

Maybe there is a whole meta game theory thing going on, but if so... maybe Berube is over-coaching here. Maybe there would be criticism of not having faith and juggling line combos too soon? who knows, but I think he should have tried to be more creative. I realize we have the away disadvantage there, but there's always ways. 

I saw plenty of effort from the Flyers. The Rangers were clogging the neutral zone like there was no tomorrow and the Flyers had no answer. Berube wanted to dump and chase but the Flyers couldn't even gain the red line consistently. You can't chase if you can't dump. Berube needs to come up with a better strategy for game 2.

that's what kinda worries me about this series. we simply got beat by a better team last night. if the Flyers have any hope, they're gonna need to find another gear... raise the bar and take it to another level. the Rangers won, what seemed like, every single puck battle. To a man, the Flyers were just beat to the puck all game long. Which, is pretty much what the last game against the Rangers looked like. 

Berube playing Akeson 5+ min more than Vinny is a serious head scratcher. I mean, I don't care that the kid didn't look out of place and had jump... this is his first playoff game(3rd NHL game) and the 4 min double is the risk you run by overplaying him. To basically lose a playoff game due to a rookie mistake... to me, gm1 is largely to blame on Berube. 

He also needs to find  a way to get G some room out there. But, overstaying shifts is not gonna do it. There was at least a few occasions where guys stayed out there waaaay too long causing them to get pinned in for large stretches. Again, that's on the coach to manage the line changes. 

The players who disappointed me the most last night were Read and Couter. Both can be seen literally standing around watching the puck and not taking their assignment on goals. 

Rookie mistake cost dearly.

Was very surprised to see him in there tonight. Who was he replacing!? McGinn? I mean I know it's ultimately Downie... But I thought we had someone else??!!? Maybe not.

what really needs to happen is have emery go mug Lundy first minute of the game. Henrik won't be the same after that. 

LMAO!

 

I think he gets his $4M+ somewhere or goes home.  I am not sure I give him more than one year.  I really like Timo.  Class guy and all that.   I am not sure I resign him with the idea of playing him on the top pair but I don't know where else you put him.  I'm not sure that I like him paired with Mac, who I'd like to keep on the second pair.  And at $4M+ I'm not sure he belongs on the 3rd pair (plus, I think he's still better than 3rd pair).   

 

Do you go get a top pair guy and pair him with Coburn and then put Timo on the 3rd pair plus special teams?   I'm just not sure that Timo on the top pair (at this point in his career and especially a year older) gets you where you want to go.

 

If he wants to play, I don't know how you let him go do it somewhere else.  He's been a great team guy.  But I'm glad I'm not the one making those decisions.

i think timo will follow the Teemu model. one year to one year. to me, he proved he's still valuable. of course, the cheaper the better, but he'll get his $4m+ somewhere. if it makes sense for the flyers, i do hope they keep him. 

I'm not going to insult you by explaining market behaviors especially since i've done said all I know'd 'bout it.; but for me the Wisnewski deal set a high bar for a competent defensman's salary.  The price wasn't going to down from that point as the years go by...

 

I blame Howson for MacDonald's deal.  

I also think the absence of a NMC is not a bad thing either.

and really... at the EOD... who the F cares if it skews the salary structure of the league. i mean... are we now holding this Mac deal up as THE cause of economic disparity in the league? will the Mac deal implode the league's economic structure by the waves it causes? i mean.. why don't we just take it to it's logical extreme at this point. lol. 

I didn't choose any of the bubbles. They have been asserted to me.

 

I'm not impressed with people who just assert things without any backup whatsoever and then are upset when the facts don't fit their preconceived notions.

 

 

 

 

It's not. I've clearly said he should have gotten somewhere in the $4-$4.5M category. In this and other threads.

 

The only people getting all hot and bothered about it aren't me. I'm engaged in a discussion on a message board with people who are asking specific questions and asserting specific things.

upset? noo, not me. are you? you seem mad bro.

specifically what did i not backup? i can't foresee the future as much as you can't. we're discussing philosophical differences of how the organization signs it's players. 

what facts don't fit my 'preconceived notions'? that's an absurd statement, btw. the 'facts' that you bring up have no relation, or bearing, to the Mac deal. this is where you accept the 'bubble' that's, apparently, been asserted to you and i don't.  

you asked if you were missing something. i think i, quite clearly, told you what you were missing. you're arguing a point and i'm counter-arguing your point. what's the problem? because i won't entertain your meaningless comparisons i have 'preconceived notions'? well, if by preconceived notions you mean... opinion, well we've all got them. 

that's the fun thing about sports... humans are not computer simulations and there is no other hockey player on the planet that can accurately be compared in the way that, it would seem, you would like to. so to see all these names and numbers brought up as statistical 'proof' that this is a bad deal just makes me laugh. 

 

I do hope I'm not "choosing my bubble" by answering your direct question...

 

LOL... looks like i touched a nerve. 

@JackStraw posted the comparables link and asked the question. @mojo1917 posted Wisniewski and Carle. I picked neither of them. That's the answer. I can't help it if you don't like it.

 

Happy to hear the many examples of other defencemen who has never scored 30 that has gotten $5M. You have time, I'll wait.

 

In the meantime, look at the actual "apples to apples" comparison below.

 

 

The "solid two way guy" who is -22 as opposed to even?

 

Neatly ignores the direct apples to apples comparison in the actual response to you so, again:

 

Kris Russell 27 on May 2, has 29 points, 12 on the PP, -11, 201 blocks, two years, $2.6M cap hit

Andrew MacDonald 27, 28 points, 11 on PP, -22, 242 blocks, six years, $5M cap hit

 

Do either of you have ANY comparable players that are making $5M? It's OK if you don't. I'm just asking. Again.

honestly don't have time, nor care to investigate since each year of FA sets a new bar for lunatic signings. the flyers have just tended to set the bar as early as possible to avoid the bidding wars, for better for worse. as well, capgeek seems to either be down, or my internet is not allowing it here at work. 

if this signing is really that crazy or outlandish to you, just wait a few months and we'll check back. if you've been paying attention, and it seems you have, each season raises the bar over previous ones. each year players are paid more and more. so to compare any deal that was not made with comparable players within weeks of each other is a fool's errand IMO. add to that, the fact that the cap figure goes up and up and this is really a silly conversation. 

what really matters is that Mac has made OUR D better. the deal is what it is and i'll defer to Homey on what it takes to get player A signed over player B for what price. I'm happy that he's signed and we'll let the rest play out. stats are fun, but you're looking at them in a bubble. choose the size of your bubble and you'll get different angles for your opinion. i'm not impressed. 

is this the best deal for the Flyers to make? probably not. is it the worst? i really don't think so. do points really tell the whole story? absolutely not. 

Matt Carle: 31 points (30+ for fifth consecutive season*), 7 ppp, +1

James Wisniewski: 51 points (3rd 30+ season), 28 ppp, even

 

MacDonald: 28 points (has never scored 30), 11 ppp, -22

 

Maybe I'm missing something in the comparison?

you've missed several critical points in your apples to oranges comparison.  you like stats.. fair enough. 

one thing you are missing is the caveat that he played on the islanders most of the season so his -22 should be framed with that understanding. point 2 is that he's sniffed 30 points twice and he's just 27 years old. AGAIN, on an islanders team that has been, practically and statistically, shiiite.

Wiz signed a 6yr $33m in July 2011 when he had exactly 2 30 pt seasons under his belt. that's in 2011 $$$. 

Carle played with Pronger... end of conversation about his point totals. I dunno if the asterisk by his name is because he did not score 30+ pts in 2012, technically he has NOT scored 30+ for 5th 'consecutive' ... but this is all nit-picking really. 

My main point is:  the way you've chosen your players and statistics here is obviously flawed and chosen to show exactly what you'd like to prove... the unprovable. Time will tell and your certainly entitled to you're opinion here, but please spare us these types of highly flawed comparisons. 

edit: 'your' to 'you're' 

edit2: which apparently didn't work. 

Well, the Pens fans would disagree doc and that horse has been beat to death   

 

I will say that if Mason is out more than one game the Flyers are toast - burnt toast.  This is going to be a quick series.  i realize Razor is playoff tested but I think age is catching up with him.  We might catch lightning in a bottle for a game, possibly two, with Emery in net but the fact is Mason needs in the lineup to have a fighting chance.

 

Seriously, I am more pissed that no one stood up to Megna after that play.  Clean, dirty... call it what you will but if a Player does that someone should stand up for Mase. 

 

i hope Fluery gets a "Mengna" tonight

there's a time and place to get smegma and you can bet that the flyers will get him back. but, it's highly doubtful it will be this year. that game in pitt was too important to go running around for payback. 

ok.. now i am getting grumpy @ruxpin ... 

Timo will not be signing anywhere for less than $4m. and why should he? his play is still top 2 D pairing. thinking he will sign with the Flyers for $2m or less is completely delusional. 

so to the cap it's 5 x 6 eh ?

 

I don't know if I think he's an elite type defenseman , which is the kind of money he will be making, I reckon the lack of an NMC is nice.  he is steady, smart and good with the puck on his stick, he's not over the hill and may improve some which would be really nice.  

That is NOT elite type defenseman money anymore. How much is Matt Carle making? This board needs to face it... D men are becoming more and more valuable in today's league and even the middle tier D men are making a lot more money now. 

A little grumpy tonight, bak?

I like that he is signed and I'm a fan before a lot of people here. I took on just about everyone when he was first brought here.

And I did say that those saying it's the going rate could be right. And your point about it being tomorrow's discount is undoubtedly correct. History proves you right.

I'm still a little surprised it took as much as it did. I wonder if there's a little extra in the in exchange for no NMC.

haha.. did i sound grumpy? maybe. i'm not. it's just the same old song around here. i don't expect everyone to be happy with every signing, not by any means. but, $5m/year avg is not bad for a 27 y/o who has the poise and puck moving ability that Mac has. 

i didn't realize that his payment balloons toward the end, but i also see nothing wrong with that here. sure, in sports... anything can happen. he could join prongs on the sideline collecting those bigger checks in the final years, but in 6 years he'll be 33, and in that time, that money could seem like a massive underpayment with things work out well. 

second guessing can go both ways here with these things and maybe i get a little frustrated when deals that are NOT obviously horrible are so overly scrutinized here. all the while, let's all forget deals like Matt Read which allow us to take risks in other areas. 

You know I really like the guy and was doing jumping Jacks when it was announced we traded for him.

But I agree it's too much and too long. I guess those who say it may be the going rate may be right but yeah, too much for too long

It's always 'too much and too long' with any new deal. and it always will be.. that's how sports contracts have gone as long as i've been watching. seems crazy now, until this summer when someone else with comparable numbers gets $6.5m from buffalo or some such. 

I would like to say this is a particular philly sports mentality, because i certainly don't see it here in nyc where they spend like it's hookers and blow money anyway, because it's the 'i told you so' indignation of the philly sports mentality. 'prove me wrong' is always the philly fan m.o. ... until then... anyone who would like to see the bright side of things is just looking through orange tinted glasses. 

<grunch> haven't read through the entire thread, but the first page was enough for me to tell you that you're all insane.

$5m for Mac is a good deal. the 6 years is obviously to circumvent the cap.. most likely why there is NO NMC. 

27 y/o gifted D man entering his prime. his steadiness and excellent ability to calm things down and move the puck up the ice is exactly what this team needed. 

When he first came back, last fall, he was an immediate catalyst for the team. He was playing very well... from most perspectives. Then he got into the fight and got concussed. Since then, he's been a bit hit or miss. I think you can add about 2 more concussions since then now... 

He had, lately, seemed to be playing better, maybe coming out of the concussion fog. But, it will be interesting to see what happens when he comes back from this one. If he can show that he's not suffering ill effects of multiple concussions, I'd like to see him back. It seems doubtful that he will for many reasons. $$$ is probably #1.