fanaticV3.0

Sorry, guys..but I'm not going to revise history.  Carter could score when he was in Philly, on and off the ice.  And that's all he did...he floated, he didn't back check, he didn't go into the corners, and he sure as hell deserved the reputation he got while a Flyer.  

 

The talent was never a question; the heart always was.  Maturation is one the keys, as someone said.  Saying that...if he had stayed in Philly I'm not sure he develops into the player he is now--for all the reasons we've already beaten to death.   

This revisionist history makes me want to barf (not you coords, you are not pretending to have expected this all along). He was absolutely a one dimensional player here. Anyone pretending they knew he had this in him all along is full of the stuff I'm about to go evacuate from my system.

Additionally, he had 50 points in the regular season. He's having a good PO, and this is probably the best stint in his career, but it's still just a stint at this point. Get off his cock.You can recognize how good he's playing right now without anointing him the best player in the league.

Michal Handzus? Am I the only one seeing that? Is that a typo?

All points fair. Being from Vancouver (Turris played at Burnaby), I got to watch him play. A really good player, but slender is an understatement. At the time he was drafted, he was listed at 170'lbs and I am sure that was with all his equipment on and after a game drenched with sweat. 

 

It was completely unreasonable to expect a guy like that to play AHL or NHL hockey at that time. I am not sure what the solution would have been (after juniors, he has to play pro hockey somewhere). He has finally matured and developed in his body. 

 

That said, the Flyers fans would be howling at the moon on selecting turris over JVR. 

I am very big on personal accountability, but if ever were there a situation to cut somebody some slack it's when a kid is drafted and expected to be a savior (or very important piece) of a terrible organization. I don't understand how a paid professional can expect a kid to come in and just do that. That only happens with very unique and special players. Luckily for him, he's still only 24, so not all is lost. He just played his first full season with his new team and got 58 points. That ain't bad. Ottawa is not a good team right now, but Phoenix is almost always a lost cause. They rarely have anything going for them.

A lot of these guys have one thing in common: $$$$

It seems there is a trend of guys who were signed for too much or for too long and are being let go (or at least talked about it). It shouldn't really be that surprising because some of the deals were thought to be too much when signed, but we're seeing the ramifications now. I'm curious to see if these players recognize they were overpaid and will accept less money (because some of them are definitely legit NHLers).

It's also interesting that 2 of the top 3 names being tossed around are currently in the Cup.

Would you compare him to Patrick Sharp? 

No, but that's more of a timing thing than anything. He could turn into a guy who gets you 60-70 points a year, he just hasn't yet. Versatility wise, I think Sharp plays all over, right? I don't see that ever happening with JVR. But production wise, I could see how they might be similar players one day.

It was a side-comment not directed at you per se'. It is in the context of the number two pick and who is better between JVR and Turris. Some feel Turris would / should have been the pick. I beg to differ. While there are several other players down the line in that draft class I certainly take over JVR OR Turris, thats easy to do with 20/20 hind site. At the time, it was a coin toss between the two at the number two slot (Turris / JVR). I still think the pick was the right one. 

 

Nothing more, nothing less. 

Ok. Gotcha.

Well those people would be wrong. Turris hasn't even proven he belongs in the NHL yet. He just played his first full NHL season in what his 6th year? About him, I will say though I have to wonder if his development was hindered by playing in Phoenix. I'm a big believer in that the worst thing that can happen to a young player is getting drafted to a bad team and little else around him to help. I think it ruins careers.

^^That about sums it up perfectly.

 

JvR is better than he was here but I tend to think he will always be a decent player that disappears for long stretches.   Sad b/c he has all the tools to be a dominating player but just think he has no drive to be that type of player.  Maybe he will but I would take him on the wing over Schenn on defense these days....

aziz was kind enough to spell it out. He's still that, just at a little bit of higher level. Better than he was here, would definitely prefer him over schenn, but I'm not comparing him to Kane or one of the other top-level talents in the league. That's just ridiculous.

Yet there are those that now say they would want Turris on that pick instead of JVR, yet all Turris has done is have one 55 point season- playing one more season than JVR. JVR's production (right wrong or indifferent), smokes Turris's- with one less season under his belt no less. 

I'm not sure what your point is. That my opinion that JVR isn't great is somehow wrong because he's better than Turris, whom other people want? Ok....

No, it wasn't

 

Here's the first post

 

 

So, JVR is mentioned in the first post of the thread by the poster who created the thread and the comparison to "what Kane would look like on his line" is an obvious one.

 

The grapes, they were obviously sour.

Relax Superfan. I didn't tell you you couldn't talk about JVR. Obviously his name is going to come up when talking about that draft and our team's role specifically in that draft (and it's fair game). But I'm not gonna argue over why the thread was created. It was created to talk about what would have happened if we gotten Kane. We already know what did happen with JVR.

And my JVR comment was in regards to comparing him to Kane (when somebody called JVR "a fine player" too).

But it is better than, say, Kyle Turris has ever done in the NHL... Everybody who is on the "JVR was disappointing" bandwagon would have run Turris out of town even quicker than JVR.

 

Brayden Schenn hasn't hit that 30/60 level. Scott Hartnell has done it - just twice in his career. 

 

Again, if Claude Giroux is a better player than Phil Kessel, JVR should have been able to hit 30 here just as easily as he did in Toronto. And then the question of the top line left wing has a 30-goal scoring answer to it.

 

I understand the desire to say "never would have happened here" since the trade was such an egregious waste of resources by the Flyers - part of a long pattern we can see under the former GM. And the fact that JVR just posted 30 after putting up 18 in 48 in the lockout season (Giroux 28 and 13).

 

But that's also just about the very definition of sour grapes... 

 

If they had a competent GM who had gotten better value for the player he had just signed to a six year extension then we're having a different conversation (because, obviously, the team was so disappointed with him they did the same thing they did with Crater and Richards - sign to a long term extension...)

 

But he didn't.

To quote the great Roger Murtaugh, "That's pretty ****** thin."

1. It's a strawman or some other logical fallacy. Where's Superfan when you need him?

2. It's ignoring chemistry between players.

3. It's ignoring JVR's own growth as a player. There's no doubt he's better than he was when he was here and besides #2 I think he had a great deal to do with that.

^^That about sums it up perfectly.

 

JvR is better than he was here but I tend to think he will always be a decent player that disappears for long stretches.   Sad b/c he has all the tools to be a dominating player but just think he has no drive to be that type of player.  Maybe he will but I would take him on the wing over Schenn on defense these days....

 I would rather have him over L. Schenn too, but the fact that this thread was created to talk about Kane and JVR is now dominating the conversation is just sad. No. Just no.

There is no question that Richards was always the marquee player ahead of Carter (leader, two-way player, etc.). But not just this post-season, but the entire season long, Carter has been outplaying Richards. 

 

Why are you so hell bent on advocating Richards and bringing up career stuff when the whole dialogue is focused around current. I mean I can spin stats any way you want. Both are fine players, but the fact remains that this season (regular and playoffs), Carter is flat out better than Richards- in all areas. 

 

I am not thumping my chest on that, because I don't care either way. But its a literal fact. 

 

You sound like Regis slurping on Crosby's *******. 

Because when judging a player - or in this case comparing two - you don't just look at one year. It's like saying John Druce is a great PO performer, but only offering that one fluke season as proof of that. It's stupid to think that's a valid argument.

0 GWGs. There's another literal fact for you.

I still disagree that JVR is a fine player.

He has the ability to be a fine player. All the physical stuff is there.

He doesn't have the constitutional fiber to be a fine player. He doesn't have the work ethic, the attention span, nor the interest. He is good for sorry periods and then disappears.

There have been worse #2 picks, but the Flyers should either have stayed Turris or traded down.

That's an old Superfan line isn't it?

The only thing that can be said about JVR right now is that he's better than he was here. It doesn't make him great or even consistently good. One 60 point season doesn't make you a great player. If he turns out to be a 60 point a year guy, that's pretty good. It's also not "Kane level".

If you don't have at least one Cup you shouldn't even be involved in the discussion. We're not talking about good teams, we're talking about great ones. The closest thing to a dynasty right now is Chicago. Then LA. Boston below that because they've been in two, but they're out if they don't win another one.  

Here's the thing.  With Richards' defensive accountability, he's way better than VLC (sucks) for me.  Is it worth 1.5M more?   No, probably not.

 

Assuming this is completely "what ifs?" what would you do with Couturier?  Doesn't he become fairly redundant with Richards back on the team?

 

I wouldn't bring Richards back unless he's already bought out by LA and wants to sign for $2.5M.   Not happening.  First, I would have to imagine there can't be a very good taste in his mouth toward Flyer management, although maybe Hextall helps that.  Second, as you point out, there's really not a viable spot for him.

You keep him. He isn't ready to be the team's 2nd line center, but Richards is. And since when is having two lines capable of legit two-way play a bad thing? So what if it's not traditional? Offense is overrated. The only player on both Cup teams that had 70 or more points was Kopitar. Richards scored 40 in a down year in a diminished role. Drop him in a 2nd line and the 50 or so points he gets in that role is more than enough, especially with Giroux, Voracek, and Simmonds pulling the weight offensively.

Again, I already said he's making too much money and we don't need a center, but if he was bought out I'd certainly consider it. Schenn isn't a center and Couturier isn't a 2nd line one, so that's where Richards comes in if I'm in charge. Adios VLC. At that point I don't care how I get rid of him, I just know that I do it. I'll pull a Milton if I have to. Just shove him in the basement or something.

Career wise?? Are you kidding me?? Its what are you doing now? Carter is going to be runner up for the Conne Smythe if he keeps going the way he is and LA wins. Kopitar will probably get it (again if LA wins). Do you hear Richards name anywhere around that discussion? Me either. I hear crickets. 

 

So, when you talk about an ass-kicker of an argument, put that one to point. Add to that a 5.75m contract for a 41 pt two way player and my argument is very solid. 

What I'm doing? I have nothing to do with this. This is all about facts.

Career points:

Richards - 466

Carter - 460

Career PO points:

Richards - 85

Carter - 69

Everything you're saying about Carter is about this year's PO run. Yeah, he's having a better PO, I'm not denying that. But 21 games doesn't make a career and if you actually take the time to look at their careers, Richards is easily the better all-around player. Carter doesn't even have the edge in the area he's supposedly significantly better in. Richards still beats him in that. And there's no debating who the better defensive player in.

Oh and by the way, those 22 points you keep bragging about for Carter, not a single one of them is a GWG. Richards takes that category once again, haha!

@fanaticV3.0

 

 What controversy? I believe Sutter when I heard him say Richards was an important player to him in many different situations. I doubt any of those situations involve goalscoring, but he has plenty of others adept at that. I just don't think Sutter is much of a PC guy and basically calls it like it is.

Yet he's playing less. Weird.

Slice the bread any way you want to. I am not paying any player 5.75m a year as a forward to score 40 pts a year and be a two-way player (I don't care what your name is). 

 

I like Richards and he is a nice player. But it looks as if he is odd man out in LA and also on a decline. Perhaps its because they do not have a role for him there, who knows. 

 

As for Carter, you can not take a blind eye to look at his progression at 200 ft of the ice. 26 goals in 48 games last year. Led the team in GWG. Second on the team in GWG this year behind Kopitar. As a GM, I have no qualms paying 5.25 for that production and especially given his exceptional play this post-season in all areas of the ice. 

The premise of your argument make little sense.

You are lauding Carter's defensive play and down playing Richards' offensive play when Richards has already been at that level defensively (higher actually) for years and their offensive output is pretty close. Carter had 50 points this year and Richards 40. Career wise, Richards is actually a little better. Carter is playing more and Richards less. This isn't exactly an ass-kicker of an argument you've got here. If Carter's offensive numbers were so good they make you doubt you need the better all-around player, I see your point. Then we've got a conversation. Then it comes down to what do you value more? But aside from his current PO production, Carter isn't killing it offensively.

 Sutter? Ya I could see him saying anything..

 

 Oh and GFY. (just thought I'd throw some fanatic conversation in)

No coach starts a controversy with one of his own players during a Cup run. I would say it's stupid to believe that, but we both know you don't even think it yourself. You're talking out of your ass because you would rather stand your ground on a stupid statement than concede a point to me.

Homer made those two trades. It was a big shakeup. That's why people still talk about it. Heck, they still talk about the Cups like they happened last year. And the Broad Street Bullies. Both of those are multiple decades removed.

 

We'll never know how Richards and Carter would have done in Philly had they not been traded. They could very well have won a Cup, or two. Or come close. Or fade quietly into the night after the 2010 pinnacle. 

1. I don't think anything the two of them do at night could be considered quiet.

2. How strange is it that the pinnacle of their Flyers career came during the same years as a .500 season and lucky/flukey comeback in the POs? Kind of defines that team imo. Talented, but not all there mentally.

@

fanaticV3.0

Yeah but i can't say those guys are worst than Boucher/Leighton though....just can't.

I wouldn't say that. You are right.

Really like who please jog my memory....i just couldn't recall any my mind isn't working right this morning just having my cup of joe now and it hasn't kicked in.

 

And i'm not using it as a crutch...sometimes i think it has a lot with management and the fact how they won 2 Cups with a goaltender no one wanted and they just signed him for pennies....and boo-yah two Cups so they think it isn't that important....at least that is what i think they think. 

Osgood, Fleury, Khabibulin, Ward, JSG. I think the fact that Chicago did it with two goalies says something, even of some of their stats are good.

Detroit did, as well as Pitts. Both of those teams were so loaded up front, they really did not need anything more than average. 

I'd throw in Cam Ward, Khabibulin, and JSG as well. Chicago also did it with two different goalies.

I"m not saying they are all horrible players or that we had anyone better, but you don't need an all-time great in net to win.

We also never had Jonathan Quick here. Watching LA win a cup is tough but its not as if we passed on that future here because we traded them away. They were spiraling out here and then straightened out once they got traded.

Agreed on all points.

Yep all those guy in different ears and yet one common trend....

 

...they had to have had the worst goaltenders of any of the playoff teams in any those year....if not someone jog my memory. 

 

1997: waaay past his prime Hexy and over rated backup Snow...

 

2004: Esche (a backup cast off from the Yotes of all teams) and 37 year old Burke.....

 

2010: Boucher a journey man backup and Leighton a career AHLer.

 

If only the Flyers front office thought goaltending was a crucial part of the team success. You have to admit those teams accomplished a lot with very little goaltending help/confidence.

 

Who knows maybe those team could have hauled in 3 Cups....yeah unlikely but you have to think that if that even had a goalie with a better pedigree and skillz it could have been better results.

I have no problem admitting that. It's a legit point. It's no secret we've had goaltending problems.

I also think people like to use it as a crutch. Plenty of teams won with goalies who were nothing special.