Bertuzzi/Moore trial date finally nears

[yave1964]

@Old School Hockey

I agree, he had his day in court and pled guilty, did his year on probation and community service. He did his time and deserves to get on with his life. It is the compensatory portion that needs adjudicated.

[yave1964]

How about you address my argument. Do we punish the action or the result!

Just because what Scott Stevens did was within the rules at the time doesn't make it any less relevant! Every time he stepped to the ice his goal was to injure and/or intimidate the other players.

You address the result, plain and simple. End of argument.

[Old School Hockey]

You address the result, plain and simple. End of argument.

If this is the rule? Many players would be out of the NHL for long periods of time!

And what do if in that hypothetical case of a player takes out another and said hurt player does not come (in the playoffs) and his team is eliminated? Does the guilty player not come back until next season?

And I was hoping you would address the list of offenders that I listed!

[Old School Hockey]

I think biggest problem with this and many other hits in the NHL is this!

The NHLPA is out there knocking each other's heads off and wants the NHL to take responsibility for its members actions.

Can't we see how absurd that is?

[J0e Th0rnton]

@J0e Th0rnton

Joe the length of his career has NOTHING TO DO with the civil suit. Okay, a slight exaggeration, but not much.

If a rich guy is injured/wronged by a poor man, does that mean that people shrug their shoulders and say well he cannot afford to pay for his slight upon the wealthier man so lets just let it go.

If a poor man is wronged/injured by a rich man are career earnings of the poor man the end all be all of deciding how much the rich guy will pay in damages? no, of course not. It is a factor, but in a typical court of law only a small portion to be considered.

So stop denigrating Moore as a minor player. It is irrelevant. Your making him sound worse than he was BTW but even if he could not stand on skates and was the worst player in the history of the game, it truly makes no difference.

Forgetting the hockey part of the equation, he is a man who was assaulted by a man, a wealthy man who pled guilty to the assault that changed his life forever for the worst. Now it is time for the civil suit where the rich man will find out how much the assault that he pled guilty to is going to cost not only him but his employer who was directly involved. Moore as a mediocre player at best will have his career earnings used as a consideration in the case but it is not the end all be all that you seem to be making it. Your beating the drum for a small part of the equation expecting it to be the only thing under consideration when it is simply just a little piece of the pie. Stop beating on Moore and look at the big picture and you will see just how the situation will work out for the NHL and Bertuzzi.

Length of career and expected career earnings are a consideration but only one, and no more important than anyone of a dozen or more to consider.

Give it a break yave. Moore has long been trying to make it out like he lost a multi-million dollar career so that it affects the judgment. I am calling a spade a spade. Moore was a marginal AHL player only playing in the NHL due to injuries, avoiding allowing anyone but his handpicked doctors to examine him and determine the true nature of his injuries and he is trying to sue for over 30 million. 

[Polaris922]

Sorry Yave. Big difference between aggravated assault with a deadly weapon and a sucker punch in both those cases.

 

And, yes, career ending/life changing issues mean he will get something, but how much will be projected on the issues I already brought up. I.E the fact that he was a 25 year old AHL player who had yet to find his niche and was only called up due to injuries to the Avs and other call up injuries and headed back to the minors the moment the Avs got healthy.

 

Moore, to get a significant amount of NHL level pay will have to prove he would have been staying in the big leagues. Both Boucha(Who had a suit for 3.5 million, but settled for less out of court) and Polonich were established NHL players with many years of NHL level pay ahead of them. Moore, by all accounts, did not even play a full NHL season since he was sent back to the minors 4 times that year, and was not a considersation for the Avs if their Roster was healthy. Furthermore, the lockout year will be subtracted from any settlement.

 

A year or two of league minimum NHL pay and 8-10 years of AHL level pay.

2-3 million. Max.

 

 

You do not sue for what you are making at the time, you sue for the loss of what you could POTENTIALLY make.  Moore was most likely a career third or fourth liner in the NHL, either with the AVs or elsewhere, but what if he'd had a Hartnell type season and scored 20+ one year on Forsberg's wing or Sakic's due to an injury.  Then some other team comes in and gives a large offer, ridiculous money, for the guy who returns to his 5-10 goal output.  Like it's never happened...   Will he get the full $38 million?  Probably not... but if he gets half will everyone feel so slighted??  He deserves it.  

 

@yave1964 's point of responsibility is well stated.  Civil court is just about being "more likely than not" the cause of the injury.  51% likely.  Since Bertuzzi plead guilty in a criminal court, where "beyond a reasonable doubt" is the standard, Bertuzzi already lost the civil case, it's just a matter of for how much.  

 

Many refuse to acknowledge Moore was offered a contract. His legal team would not allow him to step anywhere a doctors office! That to me speaks volumes. Why not allow Moore to have a physical? I think we know that answer?

Now on to Bertuzzi. He committed an offense during a hockey game. He served his league determined suspension. For years I've heard punish action not the result. For years I've heard he (Bertuzzi) shouldn't be playing. Well folks Bertuzzi actions are by FAR not the most violent or ban worthy in the history of the NHL.

So let's look at some of the incidences that get swept under the rug when the Bertuzzi incident comes up.

Hunter vs Turgeon blind hit well after a goal scored

Suter vs Kariya cross check the neck of Kariya

Simon vs Hollweg two handed swing to a man head

MvSorley vs Brashear another slash to the head

Clarke vs Kharlamov a slash so hard it broke the guys ankle

Shore vs Bailey he came from behind and flipped Bailey smashing his head on to the ice

All of the Flyers of the 70's should still be serving time in jail

And the granddaddy of them all!

Rocket Richard vs Cliff Thompson! Never heard of Cliff Thompson? He was the f@@king linesman Richard attacked after he gave Hal Laycoe a viscous two hander to His back which followed a high stick to his face. Richard punched Thompson in the face twice.

All of the above were much worse than Bertuzzi vs Moore.

So we punish the action or the result? Think about some of the players that would have served some very long suspensions if not career ending suspensions.

Two bottom lines here. IMO Moore is NOT as hurt as his legal team wants YOU to believe. If so why not allow Moore to see a Doctor?

Secondly and more important. NHLPA to the NHL!

NHL what are you going to do to stop the NHLPA from bashing each other's brains in?

Yes I'm a Wings fan but this nothing to do with the Wings! This has to with the hypocrisy that many have when it comes to Bertuzzi vs Moore and previous (and some later) incidences on the ice. And oh where's Marc Crawford in all of this? That f@@king spline less weisel?

Ok jumping off of the soapbox!

 

In civil court, and even in criminal court, YES you consider the results.  It's the difference between simple assault and aggravated assault.  It's also the difference between a lot of the cases you've cited as "worse acts" and this one.  This one had a permanent lifelong change of life for the victim.  This would qualify as aggravated in most US courts, by the way.  A first degree felony with a standard sentencing range of around five years in prison.  Which tells you Bertuzzi's profession and involvement in the game mitigated his sentence down quite drastically, which I have no problem with.    

 

I've just grown very tired of the "Bertuzzi should NOT be playing and should be in jail" argument when much worse dirty plays have happened before and after the Bertuzzi/Moore incident go unnoticed (hypocritically) because the alleged injury didn't result!

 

The only one saying he should have served time in jail here is me.  Again based on the end result, it's absolutely 100% fact.  You can have a differing opinion all you want, and I have no problem with it, but really if you took the attack he made onto a sidewalk between John Doe #1 and John Doe #2, it's a jail sentence.  I understand and love the sport of hockey, but I don't think it removes the standard of acting like a human being, and being responsible for the results of your actions when they permanently injure someone else.  

 

To both of you I would say that Moore's attorney's are 100% right to avoid the NHL doctors.  IF THAT IS IN FACT THE CASE.  I can find ZERO reference to that.  In fact, I see quite a lot inferring the opposite.  He saw NUMEROUS specialists, NUMEROUS neurosurgeons, the emergency room evaluation and his teams of specialists ALL AGREE on the injuries sustained.  The NHL's own comp insurance companies, both Hartford Life Insurance and Lloyd's of London have agreed after reviewing the medical records, reports, and Steve Moore himself,  that Moore sustained career ending injuries and that he deserves compensation for Permanent Total Disability Benefits.  Do you know how hard it is to get those insurance companies to admit that?  In fact, many medical professionals have stated that Moore has made a remarkable recovery considering his initial injuries, which only strengthens his case that he did all he could do to attain clearance to play again.  

 

I seriously think you guys have just let the rumors and hype stirring about this.  In fact I challenge anybody to show me proof or even an allegation beyond some Bertuzzi defender blogging it, that Moore was seen taking a neck brace off.  The sworn records indicate he wore it for nearly a year, as documented by doctors, therapists, neurosurgeons, spinal specialists, etc etc..   You guys have just fallen for the spin from the Bertuzzi side of the tracks.   Forget the "I've seen worse" until you've seen worse injuries as the result.  I HAVE seen worse injuries.  And I HAVE seen huge lawsuit settlements in court against people with far less responsibility or money than Bertuzzi has here.  

[Old School Hockey]

You do not sue for what you are making at the time, you sue for the loss of what you could POTENTIALLY make.  Moore was most likely a career third or fourth liner in the NHL, either with the AVs or elsewhere, but what if he'd had a Hartnell type season and scored 20+ one year on Forsberg's wing or Sakic's due to an injury.  Then some other team comes in and gives a large offer, ridiculous money, for the guy who returns to his 5-10 goal output.  Like it's never happened...   Will he get the full $38 million?  Probably not... but if he gets half will everyone feel so slighted??  He deserves it.  

 

@yave1964 's point of responsibility is well stated.  Civil court is just about being "more likely than not" the cause of the injury.  51% likely.  Since Bertuzzi plead guilty in a criminal court, where "beyond a reasonable doubt" is the standard, Bertuzzi already lost the civil case, it's just a matter of for how much.  

 

 

In civil court, and even in criminal court, YES you consider the results.  It's the difference between simple assault and aggravated assault.  It's also the difference between a lot of the cases you've cited as "worse acts" and this one.  This one had a permanent lifelong change of life for the victim.  This would qualify as aggravated in most US courts, by the way.  A first degree felony with a standard sentencing range of around five years in prison.  Which tells you Bertuzzi's profession and involvement in the game mitigated his sentence down quite drastically, which I have no problem with.    

 

 

The only one saying he should have served time in jail here is me.  Again based on the end result, it's absolutely 100% fact.  You can have a differing opinion all you want, and I have no problem with it, but really if you took the attack he made onto a sidewalk between John Doe #1 and John Doe #2, it's a jail sentence.  I understand and love the sport of hockey, but I don't think it removes the standard of acting like a human being, and being responsible for the results of your actions when they permanently injure someone else.  

 

To both of you I would say that Moore's attorney's are 100% right to avoid the NHL doctors.  IF THAT IS IN FACT THE CASE.  I can find ZERO reference to that.  In fact, I see quite a lot inferring the opposite.  He saw NUMEROUS specialists, NUMEROUS neurosurgeons, the emergency room evaluation and his teams of specialists ALL AGREE on the injuries sustained.  The NHL's own comp insurance companies, both Hartford Life Insurance and Lloyd's of London have agreed after reviewing the medical records, reports, and Steve Moore himself,  that Moore sustained career ending injuries and that he deserves compensation for Permanent Total Disability Benefits.  Do you know how hard it is to get those insurance companies to admit that?  In fact, many medical professionals have stated that Moore has made a remarkable recovery considering his initial injuries, which only strengthens his case that he did all he could do to attain clearance to play again.  

 

I seriously think you guys have just let the rumors and hype stirring about this.  In fact I challenge anybody to show me proof or even an allegation beyond some Bertuzzi defender blogging it, that Moore was seen taking a neck brace off.  The sworn records indicate he wore it for nearly a year, as documented by doctors, therapists, neurosurgeons, spinal specialists, etc etc..   You guys have just fallen for the spin from the Bertuzzi side of the tracks.   Forget the "I've seen worse" until you've seen worse injuries as the result.  I HAVE seen worse injuries.  And I HAVE seen huge lawsuit settlements in court against people with far less responsibility or money than Bertuzzi has here.

My point still remains the same!!!!!

The players I listed had much more intent to injury than Bertuzzi did! End of story on that front. Shore, McSorley, Simon and Richard could have easily killed the men they hit. Only luck stopped from killing someone with those hits!

By not going to an agreed upon Doctor tells ME that there's something to hide! To quote a certain person (paraphrase): "those that don't want to disclose the truth have something to hide"

[Polaris922]

My point still remains the same!!!!!

The players I listed had much more intent to injury than Bertuzzi did! End of story on that front. Shore, McSorley, Simon and Richard could have easily killed the men they hit. Only luck stopped from killing someone with those hits!

By not going to an agreed upon Doctor tells ME that there's something to hide! To quote a certain person (paraphrase): "those that don't want to disclose the truth have something to hide"

 

Where does it say he didn't go to any agreed upon doctors??  Joe said the same thing yet I can find no mention of that, even in the NHL defense of the incident.  More blogger hype perhaps?   And any lawyer worth salt will tell you you do NOT go to the defendant's appointed doctor anyway, even if that were true (which is apparently is NOT).  You go to independent medical professionals...  which is what Moore has done... repeatedly.  The NHL's own insurance companies say so.  

 

And you can add to your "would have killed him" list the Bertuzzi hit on Moore.  The way he rode his head into the ice, one of those vertebrae goes sideways, and you have a death on the ice just the same as any of the hits you mentioned.  As you said...  "Only luck stopped from killing someone with those hits!"  Bertuzzi included.  

[Old School Hockey]

Where does it say he didn't go to any agreed upon doctors?? Joe said the same thing yet I can find no mention of that, even in the NHL defense of the incident. More blogger hype perhaps? And any lawyer worth salt will tell you you do NOT go to the defendant's appointed doctor anyway, even if that were true (which is apparently is NOT). You go to independent medical professionals... which is what Moore has done... repeatedly. The NHL's own insurance companies say so.

And you can add to your "would have killed him" list the Bertuzzi hit on Moore. The way he rode his head into the ice, one of those vertebrae goes sideways, and you have a death on the ice just the same as any of the hits you mentioned. As you said... "Only luck stopped from killing someone with those hits!" Bertuzzi included.

Yet all I mentioned or able to carry on a career without the persecution that we've seen with this case. Imagine the NHL without Rocket Richard?

I'm sorry if you can't see you that McSorley and Simon were by far worse incidents that had very lucky outcomes.

[Polaris922]

Yet all I mentioned or able to carry on a career without the persecution that we've seen with this case. Imagine the NHL without Rocket Richard?

I'm sorry if you can't see you that McSorley and Simon were by far worse incidents that had very lucky outcomes.

 

So hitting someone in the head with a stick is worse than riding someone's spine and skull into the ice how?  I see them as very equal efforts.  The injuries in fact make the spine ride a worse attack if you think about it.  The spine into the ice thing had far worse repercussions wouldn't you agree?  Bertuzzi was allowed to carry on his career as well as any other goon in the league.   

[Old School Hockey]

So hitting someone in the head with a stick is worse than riding someone's spine and skull into the ice how?  I see them as very equal efforts.  The injuries in fact make the spine ride a worse attack if you think about it.  The spine into the ice thing had far worse repercussions wouldn't you agree?  Bertuzzi was allowed to carry on his career as well as any other goon in the league.

Man O f-Ing alive! Take off the blinders! Who exactly had a worse INTENT! INTENT INTENT!!!!!!!!

What was McSorley and Simon INTENT with a full two handed swing at a guys head? What happened with Bertuzzi/Moore was very bad result but you're being blind if you think Bertuzzi INTENDED the outcome!

And I love how you ignored what Rocket Richard did. He sucker punch mother F-ing linesman in the nose. Not once but twice after two handing a player. Wonder what his INTENT was?

[Polaris922]

Man O f-Ing alive! Take off the blinders! Who exactly had a worse INTENT! INTENT INTENT!!!!!!!!

What was McSorley and Simon INTENT with a full two handed swing at a guys head? What happened with Bertuzzi/Moore was very bad result but you're being blind if you think Bertuzzi INTENDED the outcome!

And I love how you ignored what Rocket Richard did. He sucker punch mother F-ing linesman in the nose. Not once but twice after two handing a player. Wonder what his INTENT was?

Intent leads to criminalization, but result determines severity of punishment. Bertuzzi intended to hurt Moore, perhaps not as severely as the actual result. In that he may have only wanted to give Moore a concussion.

Problem is he did much more. The severity of injury becomes the issue. I.e. I only intended to run a stop sign, but because in doing so I severely hurt another driver when I hit his car, I am now responsible for any aftermath and injuries that resulted from my lesser intent.

As for Richard, I read your comment. But the linesman didnt suffer a life altering injury. And Richard was punished for it.

[Old School Hockey]

Intent leads to criminalization, but result determines severity of punishment. Bertuzzi intended to hurt Moore, perhaps not as severely as the actual result. In that he may have only wanted to give Moore a concussion.

Problem is he did much more. The severity of injury becomes the issue. I.e. I only intended to run a stop sign, but because in doing so I severely hurt another driver when I hit his car, I am now responsible for any aftermath and injuries that resulted from my lesser intent.

As for Richard, I read your comment. But the linesman didnt suffer a life altering injury. And Richard was punished for it.

Why are different catagoires of murder?

[Polaris922]

Why are different catagoires of murder?

 

You're supporting @yave1964 's and my side of the argument now?  Because regardless of intent, you will be held responsible for your actions.  Again intent matters but does not exonerate your actions, and punishment will be based upon the results of said actions.  Agreed thank you.   LOL   So we agree Bertuzzi had bad intentions, though maybe not as severe as the result.  Therefore he IS responsible, and his penalty is about to be determined in a civil court.  The criminal courts went WAY to easy on him, and it's one rare instance where I think a court in the US would be harsher than a court in Canada.  Bertuzzi was given too much leniency simply because he's a hockey player.  

 

In Bertuzzi's own words to the court:  "I don't think of myself as a criminal," he said, "but it's important for people to know that certain violent conduct has no place in hockey. I hope I can repair some of the damage I've done."

Edited May 11, 2014 by Polaris922

[Old School Hockey]

You're supporting @yave1964 's and my side of the argument now?  Because regardless of intent, you will be held responsible for your actions.  Again intent matters but does not exonerate your actions, and punishment will be based upon the results of said actions.  Agreed thank you.   LOL   So we agree Bertuzzi had bad intentions, though maybe not as severe as the result.  Therefore he IS responsible, and his penalty is about to be determined in a civil court.  The criminal courts went WAY to easy on him, and it's one rare instance where I think a court in the US would be harsher than a court in Canada.  Bertuzzi was given too much leniency simply because he's a hockey player.

Man this is tough? Who gets a worse sentence? A man who comimits manslaughter or a man commits Assault in the first degree? Knowing of course manslaughter includes death and assault in the first degree did NOT end in death.

[Old School Hockey]

Man this is tough? Who gets a worse sentence? A man who comimits manslaughter or a man commits Assault in the first degree? Knowing of course manslaughter includes death and assault in the first degree did NOT end in death.

Or manslaughter vs attempted murder?

[J0e Th0rnton]

You're supporting @yave1964 's and my side of the argument now?  Because regardless of intent, you will be held responsible for your actions.  Again intent matters but does not exonerate your actions, and punishment will be based upon the results of said actions.  Agreed thank you.   LOL   So we agree Bertuzzi had bad intentions, though maybe not as severe as the result.  Therefore he IS responsible, and his penalty is about to be determined in a civil court.  The criminal courts went WAY to easy on him, and it's one rare instance where I think a court in the US would be harsher than a court in Canada.  Bertuzzi was given too much leniency simply because he's a hockey player.  

 

In Bertuzzi's own words to the court:  "I don't think of myself as a criminal," he said, "but it's important for people to know that certain violent conduct has no place in hockey. I hope I can repair some of the damage I've done."

I'm on my phone so I cannot type up a huge post like normal, but keep in mind The motley crue singer killed someone driving drunk and only did 30 days prison time. The US court system is pretty lenient on superstars

[Polaris922]

Or manslaughter vs attempted murder?

Where is this comparison from? Nobody accused Bertuzzi of manslaughter or homicide. But he wasn't punished equivalent to his offense either. In fact, a Canadian district attorney gave him a plea agreement without the victim or his attorney present, and the "judge refused" to postpone the hearing to allow him to get there. Who the hell does that?? A Vancouver judge hearing a case on a Vancouver hockey player, that's who.

So if Moore gets 20 or 30 million, I say God bless him.

[Polaris922]

I'm on my phone so I cannot type up a huge post like normal, but keep in mind The motley crue singer killed someone driving drunk and only did 30 days prison time. The US court system is pretty lenient on superstars

Oh I know it happens! Even without superstar status, sadly. But I think the Vancouver judge was as biased as they get in this case. And the DA was worse.

[Old School Hockey]

Where is this comparison from? Nobody accused Bertuzzi of manslaughter or homicide. But he wasn't punished equivalent to his offense either. In fact, a Canadian district attorney gave him a plea agreement without the victim or his attorney present, and the "judge refused" to postpone the hearing to allow him to get there. Who the hell does that?? A Vancouver judge hearing a case on a Vancouver hockey player, that's who.

So if Moore gets 20 or 30 million, I say God bless him.

Point is the intent gets punished much more severely. i.e McSorley and Simon should have been punished more severely than (attempted murder) vs Bertuzzi (manslaughter).

Again the while point in the real non sports world is a guy who attempts murder but by luck doesn't actually kill them gets punished more severely than guy with no intent accidental kills someone.

[yave1964]

Bertuzzi pled guilty to get it over with.

He has attempted to apologize to Moore who refused it.

He truly seems contrite and has accepted the vilification with as much grace as possible.

Intent has nothing to do with nothing. The result of his attack upon Moore is what matters. Nothing more nor less. The result, period.

Lets forget hockey, look at it from outside of the box.

A man annoys a company, who sends one of their best employees to voice his displeasure to the man. It ends in fisticuffs', whether intended or not the first man winds up with a life altering injury. The man who injured him pleads guilty to the assault.

Of course the injured man is going to sue, and get absolutely as much as he can, even more than he deserves if his lawyer is good enough.

Nobody says Moore is a saint or that his character is unblemished, but what he is plain and simple, especially with Bert accepting the terms of the assault conviction is the victim. It is not a matter of how but of how much now. I have read several lawyers critical of Bertuzzi's attorneys for allowing him to plead guilty before the end of the civil suit, essentially he coughed up the puck in his own end and gave it to Moore. Focusing on the ridiculous that Moore was a poor player is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with it, period. Attempting to say bodies landing on top of Moore were the issue is irrelevant. Bertuzzi pled guilty to the assault, making that argument moot. You may believe it in your heart of hearts, good for you, but in the court of law none of that matters anymore. Guilt has been established, now it is simply determining compensatory damages.

And back to my original point, this should have been dealt with a long time ago by Bertuzzi, by the Canucks, by Crawford and by the league. Pay, overpay get it over with and move on. Instead the league closed ranks and drug their feet to an absurd degree, but now it is time to pay the piper.

I am a Wings fan of no small degree, Bert has been fun to watch but I would have rather he played for someone else. He deserves to have his chance to play and earn a living but I wish he had done it in Florida or Phoenix or somewhere else.

[Old School Hockey]

Bertuzzi pled guilty to get it over with.He has attempted to apologize to Moore who refused it.He truly seems contrite and has accepted the vilification with as much grace as possible.Intent has nothing to do with nothing. The result of his attack upon Moore is what matters. Nothing more nor less. The result, period.Lets forget hockey, look at it from outside of the box.A man annoys a company, who sends one of their best employees to voice his displeasure to the man. It ends in fisticuffs', whether intended or not the first man winds up with a life altering injury. The man who injured him pleads guilty to the assault.Of course the injured man is going to sue, and get absolutely as much as he can, even more than he deserves if his lawyer is good enough.Nobody says Moore is a saint or that his character is unblemished, but what he is plain and simple, especially with Bert accepting the terms of the assault conviction is the victim. It is not a matter of how but of how much now. I have read several lawyers critical of Bertuzzi's attorneys for allowing him to plead guilty before the end of the civil suit, essentially he coughed up the puck in his own end and gave it to Moore. Focusing on the ridiculous that Moore was a poor player is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with it, period. Attempting to say bodies landing on top of Moore were the issue is irrelevant. Bertuzzi pled guilty to the assault, making that argument moot. You may believe it in your heart of hearts, good for you, but in the court of law none of that matters anymore. Guilt has been established, now it is simply determining compensatory damages.And back to my original point, this should have been dealt with a long time ago by Bertuzzi, by the Canucks, by Crawford and by the league. Pay, overpay get it over with and move on. Instead the league closed ranks and drug their feet to an absurd degree, but now it is time to pay the piper.I am a Wings fan of no small degree, Bert has been fun to watch but I would have rather he played for someone else. He deserves to have his chance to play and earn a living but I wish he had done it in Florida or Phoenix or somewhere else.

My bigger point I noted long ago this is actually NHLPA vs NHLPA. It's not like NHL did any of this.

All NHLPA need to take responsibility for their actions and stop looking at the NHL to stop their foolishness! There's absolutely no respect for each other! From Crosby to Lucic!

Edited May 11, 2014 by Old School Hockey

[J0e Th0rnton]

You do not sue for what you are making at the time, you sue for the loss of what you could POTENTIALLY make.  Moore was most likely a career third or fourth liner in the NHL, either with the AVs or elsewhere, but what if he'd had a Hartnell type season and scored 20+ one year on Forsberg's wing or Sakic's due to an injury.  Then some other team comes in and gives a large offer, ridiculous money, for the guy who returns to his 5-10 goal output.  Like it's never happened...   Will he get the full $38 million?  Probably not... but if he gets half will everyone feel so slighted??  He deserves it.  

 

@yave1964 's point of responsibility is well stated.  Civil court is just about being "more likely than not" the cause of the injury.  51% likely.  Since Bertuzzi plead guilty in a criminal court, where "beyond a reasonable doubt" is the standard, Bertuzzi already lost the civil case, it's just a matter of for how much.  

 

 

In civil court, and even in criminal court, YES you consider the results.  It's the difference between simple assault and aggravated assault.  It's also the difference between a lot of the cases you've cited as "worse acts" and this one.  This one had a permanent lifelong change of life for the victim.  This would qualify as aggravated in most US courts, by the way.  A first degree felony with a standard sentencing range of around five years in prison.  Which tells you Bertuzzi's profession and involvement in the game mitigated his sentence down quite drastically, which I have no problem with.    

Again, bull friggen crap. Moore was a pedestrian call up, covering a team laden with injuries, not a 3rd line caliber player(Not even 4th line). And yes Yave, it is totally relevant because his claims as to how much money he lost due to the injury will refect directly on the settlement. That is why he is trying to paint the picture that he is an NHL 1st line player, when in fact, he was an AHL 3rd line player. Claiming he could "Potentially make" could easily turn into him claiming to be the next Crosby. They will look at it logically, and come to a logical conclusion.

 

Nobody is claiming Moore will get nothing. We all know he already won the civil case. Just not how much. A large part of the settlement will be proving his career was not worth what he claims it is, and judging how much Bertuzzi lost from punishment(Lost his sponsor deals and endorsements that year worth $350k along with his pay loss, but after that incident, he was punished by not getting any new sponsors and endorsements, worth millions over his career)

 

In the NHL, the average player shows he belongs in the NHL and is producing effectively by age 23. Players who are 25 and still not producing or contributing defensively at AHL level(Let alone NHL level), being used strictly as call ups for injuries, and sent up and down multiple times in the same season(Where every NHL team can pick them up on re-entry waivers for half price if they see value in them, but none did). Moore lost the majority of his faceoffs(In fact, he was ranked like 350th in the league). His team had 17 guys with more time on ice per game for penalty killing, so he was not there for his defensive abilities and, well, he could not score either. In fact, 31 goals against were scored while he was on the ice, and only 20 goals for. His torrid skating was a constant point of worry for avs fans, and this was in the dead puck era.

 

Comparing him to Hartnell is just weird. Hartnell at age 18 and 19 had scored more in the NHL than Moore did in 2 AHL season at age 24. Moore was a career AHL guy, only there due to injuries. His being put on reentry waivers multiple times that season and nobody caring to pick him up at half of league minimum speaks volumes. That and he was only called up after Hahl and McAllister went on Injury reserve, then all their centers started getting injured.

 

 

While we are comparing real life incidents to Hockey incidents and claming on ice actions deserve real life punishments, let's do this. I challenge you to take a hockey stick, do downtown and slash a few people. Cross check a few people, and maybe slew foot and can opener a few people. Maybe even throw a good running blindside shoulder check to someone's head. When you are done, ask the officer why formal charges are being filed against you and tell him just to put you in the penalty box for 2 to 5 minutes.

 

All things that routinely happen every game, but should be treated as real life right?

 

In any case, my stance on the civil suit stands. Moore should get what he likely would have made in his career. Even being generous and thinking he would have lasted 3 years in the NHL as a 4th liner in the new NHL with his atrocious skating and faceoff abilities, that is 3 years of league minimum(So 1.5 million). Then factor in 10 years or so of AHL pay, which would be around $50000 a year for a 3rd line AHL center. Another 500k. Then of course, the pain and suffering. Well, considering millionaire rock star Vince Neil killed a man drunk driving and gave brain damage to 2 other people in another vehicle and had to pay 2.6 million combined in restitution to them and their families.....

 

I was a little surprised they opted to have the trial in Colorado. Colorado has a cap on punitive damages(These are the damages used to punish the wealthy). I have zero doubt Moore will win money for Hospital and Medical bills(unless as some say, it is covered by league insurance), and on loss of pay, and he likely will get something for pain and suffering as well as emotional distress. But Punitive damages are where the rich people get smashed the most in civil suits, and Colorado has a punitive damage cap. But then again, Canadian civil law is much gentler on the pocketbook as well.

 

A lot of people say if Bert loses the suit badly, or worse than he wants to, he will file an appeal that it should have been held in Canada due to it being the time and place of the incident, which will likely delay Moore getting any money for years as they continually appeal and reppeal all the way to supreme court.

Edited May 12, 2014 by J0e Th0rnton

[yave1964]

@J0e Th0rnton

I appreciate where you are coming from with what you are stating as to career earnings for Moore. The simple fact is that is a consideration but it is far from the end all be all that you seem to want to make it. The fact is it is only a small portion of the deciding factor in how much can be awarded to a plaintiff. That is what I have been desperately trying to get through to you, and we have went round and round on, yes, future earnings are a factor but you seem to think that is the only factor under consideration. It is much more complicated than whether Moore could play hockey at an NHL level for one month or one decade. It matters, but you are placing all of your eggs in one basket by assuming that is the only factor in deciding how much to award Moore.

[J0e Th0rnton]

@J0e Th0rnton

I appreciate where you are coming from with what you are stating as to career earnings for Moore. The simple fact is that is a consideration but it is far from the end all be all that you seem to want to make it. The fact is it is only a small portion of the deciding factor in how much can be awarded to a plaintiff. That is what I have been desperately trying to get through to you, and we have went round and round on, yes, future earnings are a factor but you seem to think that is the only factor under consideration. It is much more complicated than whether Moore could play hockey at an NHL level for one month or one decade. It matters, but you are placing all of your eggs in one basket by assuming that is the only factor in deciding how much to award Moore.

Yave, I never said it was the only factor. Merely the most relevant one. Originally, I thought they were having the trial in Colorado, now I just realized they are having it in Ontario? The punitive damage cap and economic damages caps in place in Canada mean the Loss of income is going to be where he gets the majority of his money in this suit.