Del Zotto: BEAST

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

Provorov and Sanheim I think have the best potential. MDZ is a good dman and I am not arguing that... but to call him a true #1 is pure nonsense. That was the original post so some feel he is a true #1... as bad as that may be....

And if MDZ starts the core of this retooling I am glad that person is not the GM. I will gladly rebuild around G...

I mean Gost has more goals in his short stint w the Flyers and MDZ is just about as good away from the puck. It is nonsense to call him a number 1....

When did he get his first goal of the year?

If Del Zotto is the veteran Hextall keeps around, I have no problem with that. I like the fact that Del Zotto is making a concerted effort at being a better defender. I like the fact that he's sacrificing offense for defense. In typ of that, he's an incredibly good guy in the locker room and had done everything that had been asked of him. Is he a number one? Nope, but he doesn't hurt the club when he plays a top pairing role. When he and Morin become the top pairing (I'm in the Morin will be the number one guy on the squad), I don't think anyone will be complaining about Del Zotto and his role on the club.

[murraycraven]

And that was my point... he scores his first goal against Nash. ... sorry, not exactly a # 1.

[murraycraven]

If Del Zotto is the veteran Hextall keeps around, I have no problem with that. I like the fact that Del Zotto is making a concerted effort at being a better defender. I like the fact that he's sacrificing offense for defense. In typ of that, he's an incredibly good guy in the locker room and had done everything that had been asked of him. Is he a number one? Nope, but he doesn't hurt the club when he plays a top pairing role. When he and Morin become the top pairing (I'm in the Morin will be the number one guy on the squad), I don't think anyone will be complaining about Del Zotto and his role on the club.

This is exactly my point...great post

[murraycraven]

"When the kids are ready" It sounds good but is meaningless. What makes you think any of the "kids" will be better than MDZ? Hype?

Do you watch the "kids?" Do you have any idea how they are developing? I watch every Phantom game, and I have news for you, the "kids" are not close to being ready. MDZ is way better than everybody we have in the A. And, he's only 25.

Morin is a physically imposing player who is not close to being ready for the NHL. He is tough but very raw. Haag is wildly inconsistent and shows very little passion

And in juniors:

Sanheim is an offensive player but he has really regressed defensively this year. He's also years away.

Provorov is and will be special. I love his game!

MDZ is still young and someone I believe in. He just logged 29 minutes versus the Rangers (while Ghost only logged 19, by comparison) and played really solid hockey. He's tough, skilled and really competes. He's also perfect for Hakstol's system.

I hope every "kid" develops into a number 1 but even you will admit that is unlikely. MDZ is already getting it done, saddled with mediocre partners. There should be no doubt that he is a core player.

When I am at my laptop I will respond to this.... again, not dogging MDZ but you are way over valuing him.

[doom88]

People really believe he is in the same class as a Weber, Keith, OEL, Doughty? Lol!

There are 30 #1 defenseman in the NHL, most of which aren't in that elite group. MDZ sure isn't that good, and may not be a number one defenseman in skill level (I'm genuinely so not sure he is), but throwing out the top five isn't really the point.

Not trying to derail, please, continue. I'm actually interested where this thread will go.

[murraycraven]

There are 30 #1 defenseman in the NHL, most of which aren't in that elite group. MDZ sure isn't that good, and may not be a number one defenseman in skill level (I'm genuinely so not sure he is), but throwing out the top five isn't really the point.

Not trying to derail, please, continue. I'm actually interested where this thread will go.

I am sorry.... but when you claim him the be a "true #1" the comparisons are justified. MacDud was a #1 on the Isles at one point too.... a true number one? No...

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

Del Zotto is a great complimentary partner to a number 1 guy. I think that's something we can all agree on. As well, in a pinch, Del Zotto can be a lead dog and not look out of place. The issue is that he just doesn't have the consistency or the ability to maintain that for a very extended period of time. That's not a shot on the guy, that's the way it is. I've said it before in other posts and in this series, but I believe that Del Zotto will be the veteran Hextall keeps around when the rest of the blue line prospects are worked into the lineup. Gostisbehere is going to be alright and doesn't need Del Zotto, but when Provorov, Morin and Sanheim all arrive, Del Zotto is going to be an extremely important piece going forward. No, he won't be the number 1 defenseman on the club, but he will certainly be the number one leader amongst the defense and in all sincerity, I think that's a huge compliment and accomplishment for a man who at one point had no teams interested in him.

[doom88]

I am sorry.... but when you claim him the be a "true #1" the comparisons are justified. MacDud was a #1 on the Isles at one point too.... a true number one? No...

By definition, yes. That one sucked, but the average of the top thirty seems much more fair than just the potential hall of famers.

[NRH]

People really believe he is in the same class as a Weber, Keith, OEL, Doughty? Lol!

 

Well only two of those defense men have cup rings, so it's likely that 1st line defense men isn't that lofty a standard.

 

But if we just killed off 4 teams in the NHL that would be a whole other story.

[brelic]

Del Zotto is a great complimentary partner to a number 1 guy. I think that's something we can all agree on. As well, in a pinch, Del Zotto can be a lead dog and not look out of place. The issue is that he just doesn't have the consistency or the ability to maintain that for a very extended period of time. That's not a shot on the guy, that's the way it is. I've said it before in other posts and in this series, but I believe that Del Zotto will be the veteran Hextall keeps around when the rest of the blue line prospects are worked into the lineup. Gostisbehere is going to be alright and doesn't need Del Zotto, but when Provorov, Morin and Sanheim all arrive, Del Zotto is going to be an extremely important piece going forward. No, he won't be the number 1 defenseman on the club, but he will certainly be the number one leader amongst the defense and in all sincerity, I think that's a huge compliment and accomplishment for a man who at one point had no teams interested in him.

 

I know we like to talk about the kids arriving, but there's no guarantee. They might all make it, or they could all be busts, or somewhere in between. 

 

Del Zotto is an important piece now, and he's actually arrived/arriving. At 25 and a defenseman, he's not a finished product. And he's the #1 defenseman on this team. He has the highest Corsi % of his career this year on a crappy team, which is more impressive when you consider that he also has the highest % of defensive zone starts (50.5%) of his career. That might account for decreased production, but he plays a much bigger role on the team by killing penalties and rounding out his defensive game. 

 

Morin might be awesome. Or he might be packing meat at a plant in Quebec. 

 

Our blueline of the future is at least 5-7 years away. Surely they will filter in sooner than that, but a cohesive, mature unit is half a decade away or more.

 

Del Zotto can and should be an important piece in bridging that gap.

[murraycraven]

"When the kids are ready" It sounds good but is meaningless. What makes you think any of the "kids" will be better than MDZ? Hype?

 

Do you watch the "kids?" Do you have any idea how they are developing? I watch every Phantom game, and I have news for you, the "kids" are not close to being ready. MDZ is way better than everybody we have in the A. And, he's only 25.

Morin is a physically imposing player who is not close to being ready for the NHL. He is tough but very raw.  Haag is wildly inconsistent and shows very little passion

 

And in juniors:

Sanheim is an offensive player but he has really regressed defensively this year. He's also years away.

Provorov is and will be special. I love his game!

 

MDZ is still young and someone I believe in. He just logged 29 minutes versus the Rangers (while Ghost only logged 19, by comparison) and played really solid hockey. He's tough, skilled and really competes. He's also perfect for Hakstol's system.

 

I hope every "kid" develops into a number 1 but even you will admit that is unlikely. MDZ is already getting it done, saddled with mediocre partners. There should be no doubt that he is a core player.

 

Arguing that the "when the kids are ready" line of thinking is silly - is well, silly in itself.  No one knows how the kids will an out but when you have some of the most highly touted d prospects in the league you would think one of them will turn out to be legit.

 

Yes, I watch the kids in A-town as I live a close drive to the games and have seen my fair share.  Morin needs to develop his game but there is a lot to like.  Haag is the same and I do not include Haag in with Morin, Provorov and Sanheim type prospects.  Although, I do believe Haag can and will be a good NHL player.

 

Not sure if you have followed much of Sanheim.   Before getting hurt against Skaskatoon he was leading the WHL in points for defensive and is still in the top in nearly every category while playing 7 games fewer than most in the WHL.   Sanheim has not regressed this year and Hextall even discussed this during a press conference stating that he was very excited at Sanheim's trajectory.   Is he a few years away?  Absolutely, but so are all the prospects at this point.   

 

You state that he logged 29 minutes in the Rangers game which is close to Weber type minutes.  There was a reason for that - the defense was short.  Schultz was injured and Schenn was in the box for fighting.  He will not be playing 29 minutes a night for the Flyers.   Here is a quick list of the TOI leaders by defencemen:

 

RK PLAYER TEAM GP G A PTS +/- TOI/G SHFT SHFT/G PROD 1 Ryan Suter, D MIN 22 3 17 20 2 28:02 679 30.9 30:49 2 Drew Doughty, D LA 23 2 10 12 8 27:09 768 33.4 52:02 3 Alex Pietrangelo, D STL 24 2 9 11 -2 27:04 740 30.8 59:02 4 Erik Karlsson, D OTT 23 5 21 26 8 27:02 617 26.8 23:54 5 Kris Letang, D PIT 23 1 13 14 -14 26:33 690 30.0 43:36 6 Brent Burns, D SJ 23 9 11 20 -5 26:24 650 28.3 30:21 7 Oliver Ekman-Larsson, D ARI 23 5 10 15 2 25:26 641 27.9 39:00 8 Duncan Keith, D CHI 14 4 6 10 2 25:20 429 30.6 35:27 9 Jack Johnson, D CBJ 25 2 5 7 -9 25:08 713 28.5 89:46 10 T.J. Brodie, D CGY 15 2 5 7 -2 25:03 480 32.0

53:40

 

 

11 Justin Faulk, D CAR 23 8 10 18 -11 24:59 677 29.4 31:55 12 David Savard, D CBJ 25 0 11 11 -8 24:57 711 28.4 56:42 13 Roman Josi, D NSH 23 4 10 14 -4 24:56 676 29.4 40:57 14 P.K. Subban, D MTL 25 1 19 20 11 24:50 690 27.6 31:03 15 Alexander Edler, D VAN 23 4 9 13 5 24:50 708 30.8 43:55 16 Shea Weber, D NSH 23 6 4 10 -7 24:37 679 29.5 56:37 17 Zdeno Chara, D BOS 20 3 8 11 6 24:32 567 28.4 44:37 18 John Carlson, D WSH 23 4 14 18 3 24:16 659 28.7 30:59 19 Rasmus Ristolainen, D BUF 24 4 10 14 -4 24:06 729 30.4 41:18 20 Mark Giordano, D CGY 24 5 3 8 -15 23:57 769 32.0

71:51

 

 

MDZ is, in fact, someone I believe in going forward and have stated that much.  With that being said he is a nice 3/4 type dman that is better suited for the 2nd PP.   Let us not forget MDZ was out of hockey until an injury forced the Flyers to sign him - and it worked out brilliantly for us.  I do think he has taken on more of a leadership role and has definitely taken on more of a defensive role under Hakstol - kudos to both him and the Coach b/c his play has gotten better away from the puck.  With that said he still is not a defensive stalwart on the ice.  

 

The entire reason I am claiming MDZ is not a "true #1" is b/c he is not.   Let's play a game - if you were able to move say MDZ and Schenn plus picks for OEL would you do it?  If you say "no" there is no reasoning in debating this b/c I think you would be off your rocker.   

 

MDZ may be a #1/2 on this team - again, MacDud was a #1/2 on the Isles for a time.   MDZ is not a "true #1" dman in this league but he is a very good player for this team.  My major question for you would be this - Would the Flyers have a better chance at winning a cup with MDZ as the #1 or would he be better suited as a 2-4 type dman?

 

Last, MDZ is still young and he can develop.   But, if I use the 300 game metric that most around here like to throw out his development is nearly topped off.  He is in the top 30 in ice time but is still prone to mental lapses in his own end.   I really like MDZ but do not believe he is a "true #1" in this league.   

 

Look, he is a very good player and I agree he needs to be retained.  I just dont buy into the claim that he is a "true #1." I would love to be wrong but I dont think I am...    As OR stated - as of right now he is the #1 by default.   

[brelic]

Just to give myself some perspective, I went looking at a few teams at random to see what kind of success rate they get with defensemen.

 

Between 2005 and 2013:

 

Chicago has drafted 25 defensemen (1 1st rounder) and 1 has played more than 150 games.

Nashville has drafted 20 defensemen (4 1st rounders) and 5 have played more than 150 games.

Los Angeles has drafted 21 defensemen (4 1st rounders) and 4 have played more than 150 games.

 

Philadelphia has drafted 21 defensemen (2 1st rounders) and 1 has played more than 150 games.

 

Not surprisingly, there is a strong correlation between 1st round defensemen, and playing 150 games. The overwhelming majority of players picked in other rounds simply do not make the NHL in any meaningful way.

 

Luckily we have three 1st rounders and that bodes well.

[murraycraven]

How is Travis underperforming? The kid missed 8 or so games and is still 4 pts away from leading the whl in scoring from a d man. Smack my head

Ethan bear has 2 more points than Travis with 10 more games. Trade him straight up right now!

Morin has always been a project. His upside is still 4-5 years out.

 

Could not agree more Claude... this Sanheim "is regressing" is far from reality.

[King Knut]

I agree but if we tank he will be up for trade bait . I would think so keep it up MDZ!!!!!

Oh I doubt that. He's got a nicely proportioned contract ( for a change) he's relatively young still and he's working out.

Luke, maybe Streit if he returns. Those guys are trade bait (Luke's game changing fight not withstanding). MDZ is only trade bait if Hextall can't extend him for a decent rate before next October.

[murraycraven]

Oh I doubt that. He's got a nicely proportioned contract ( for a change) he's relatively young still and he's working out.

Luke, maybe Streit if he returns. Those guys are trade bait (Luke's game changing fight not withstanding). MDZ is only trade bait if Hextall can't extend him for a decent rate before next October.

 

Which brings up another question:  since there is a group of people that believe MDZ is a "true #1" what will his payday be?   "True #1" dmen do not come cheap....

[King Knut]

Arguing that the "when the kids are ready" line of thinking is silly - is well, silly in itself. No one knows how the kids will an out but when you have some of the most highly touted d prospects in the league you would think one of them will turn out to be legit.

Yes, I watch the kids in A-town as I live a close drive to the games and have seen my fair share. Morin needs to develop his game but there is a lot to like. Haag is the same and I do not include Haag in with Morin, Provorov and Sanheim type prospects. Although, I do believe Haag can and will be a good NHL player.

Not sure if you have followed much of Sanheim. Before getting hurt against Skaskatoon he was leading the WHL in points for defensive and is still in the top in nearly every category while playing 7 games fewer than most in the WHL. Sanheim has not regressed this year and Hextall even discussed this during a press conference stating that he was very excited at Sanheim's trajectory. Is he a few years away? Absolutely, but so are all the prospects at this point.

You state that he logged 29 minutes in the Rangers game which is close to Weber type minutes. There was a reason for that - the defense was short. Schultz was injured and Schenn was in the box for fighting. He will not be playing 29 minutes a night for the Flyers. Here is a quick list of the TOI leaders by defencemen:

RK PLAYER TEAM GP G A PTS +/- TOI/G SHFT SHFT/G PROD 1 Ryan Suter, D MIN 22 3 17 20 2 28:02 679 30.9 30:49 2 Drew Doughty, D LA 23 2 10 12 8 27:09 768 33.4 52:02 3 Alex Pietrangelo, D STL 24 2 9 11 -2 27:04 740 30.8 59:02 4 Erik Karlsson, D OTT 23 5 21 26 8 27:02 617 26.8 23:54 5 Kris Letang, D PIT 23 1 13 14 -14 26:33 690 30.0 43:36 6 Brent Burns, D SJ 23 9 11 20 -5 26:24 650 28.3 30:21 7 Oliver Ekman-Larsson, D ARI 23 5 10 15 2 25:26 641 27.9 39:00 8 Duncan Keith, D CHI 14 4 6 10 2 25:20 429 30.6 35:27 9 Jack Johnson, D CBJ 25 2 5 7 -9 25:08 713 28.5 89:46 10 T.J. Brodie, D CGY 15 2 5 7 -2 25:03 480 32.0

53:40

11 Justin Faulk, D CAR 23 8 10 18 -11 24:59 677 29.4 31:55 12 David Savard, D CBJ 25 0 11 11 -8 24:57 711 28.4 56:42 13 Roman Josi, D NSH 23 4 10 14 -4 24:56 676 29.4 40:57 14 P.K. Subban, D MTL 25 1 19 20 11 24:50 690 27.6 31:03 15 Alexander Edler, D VAN 23 4 9 13 5 24:50 708 30.8 43:55 16 Shea Weber, D NSH 23 6 4 10 -7 24:37 679 29.5 56:37 17 Zdeno Chara, D BOS 20 3 8 11 6 24:32 567 28.4 44:37 18 John Carlson, D WSH 23 4 14 18 3 24:16 659 28.7 30:59 19 Rasmus Ristolainen, D BUF 24 4 10 14 -4 24:06 729 30.4 41:18 20 Mark Giordano, D CGY 24 5 3 8 -15 23:57 769 32.0

71:51

MDZ is, in fact, someone I believe in going forward and have stated that much. With that being said he is a nice 3/4 type dman that is better suited for the 2nd PP. Let us not forget MDZ was out of hockey until an injury forced the Flyers to sign him - and it worked out brilliantly for us. I do think he has taken on more of a leadership role and has definitely taken on more of a defensive role under Hakstol - kudos to both him and the Coach b/c his play has gotten better away from the puck. With that said he still is not a defensive stalwart on the ice.

The entire reason I am claiming MDZ is not a "true #1" is b/c he is not. Let's play a game - if you were able to move say MDZ and Schenn plus picks for OEL would you do it? If you say "no" there is no reasoning in debating this b/c I think you would be off your rocker.

MDZ may be a #1/2 on this team - again, MacDud was a #1/2 on the Isles for a time. MDZ is not a "true #1" dman in this league but he is a very good player for this team. My major question for you would be this - Would the Flyers have a better chance at winning a cup with MDZ as the #1 or would he be better suited as a 2-4 type dman?

Last, MDZ is still young and he can develop. But, if I use the 300 game metric that most around here like to throw out his development is nearly topped off. He is in the top 30 in ice time but is still prone to mental lapses in his own end. I really like MDZ but do not believe he is a "true #1" in this league.

Look, he is a very good player and I agree he needs to be retained. I just dont buy into the claim that he is a "true #1." I would love to be wrong but I dont think I am... As OR stated - as of right now he is the #1 by default.

How many teams have a true #1 anymore?

Chicago? LA? Nashville? I guess maybe Montreal?

Kimmo was prone to mental lapses here and there.

MDZ is not Keith or Weber, nor is he Kimmo or Rico. But he's pretty good.

My question is, will he demand $6million+ when his co tract is up in 2017. The chances are that he'll have earned it if he keeps going.

But can the Flyers afford to give it to him? Probably not. Not with all the years remaining on VLC and MacDonald's deals (Though we will have Streit money back by then).

Personally I would think the 5 million range should be emanable, but hopefully not for 20 years--but if Hexy can't swing it then dish him to the Blues or the Stars or whoever else is contending come winter 2017 for the best picks you can get.

[King Knut]

Which brings up another question: since there is a group of people that believe MDZ is a "true #1" what will his payday be? "True #1" dmen do not come cheap....

Yeah, he's not weber or suter. I mentioned this later but I think it's on Hexy to limit his new deal to 5-5.25 million and I hope not for ten years.

If Hexy can't lock that down by next year's trade deadline (unless of course the team has a major turnaround) then send MDZ to the highest bidder.

[murraycraven]

My question is, will he demand $6million+ when his co tract is up in 2017. The chances are that he'll have earned it if he keeps going.

 

that is the question and I am excited to see the responses... if he is asking anywhere near that amount he is a goner in my eyes.

[murraycraven]

How many teams have a true #1 anymore?

Chicago? LA? Nashville? I guess maybe Montreal?

 

off the top of my head - Rangers (McDonagh), Montreal (K), Phoenix (OEL), Blues (Petro), LA (Doughty), Chicago (Keith), Calgary (Giordano), Ottawa (Karlsson), Nash (Weber), Minny (Suter), Pitt (LeTang), Tampa (Hedman)

 

I put these players waaaaaaay ahead of MDZ.  Some of the teams listed like the Blues and Nash have a True 1A and 1B.

[King Knut]

that is the question and I am excited to see the responses... if he is asking anywhere near that amount he is a goner in my eyes.

 

Yeah.  As much as I would love for him to stick around for continuity sake and as much of a valuable asset I think he'll be for a while, Hextall can't make that mistakes Homer made with salary and the cap.  

 

the 6 million dollar salaries have to be reserved for the truly elite players.  Duncan Keith doesn't even make that much.  Doughty and Weber do, but they're probably overpaid (in part thanks to Homer) with contracts that will eventually become dead albatrosses to their teams.

 

At least they're getting something extremely productive out of them in the mean time as opposed to our dead albatrosses.

[King Knut]

off the top of my head - Rangers (McDonagh), Montreal (K), Phoenix (OEL), Blues (Petro), LA (Doughty), Chicago (Keith), Calgary (Giordano), Ottawa (Karlsson), Nash (Weber), Minny (Suter), Pitt (LeTang), Tampa (Hedman)

 

I put these players waaaaaaay ahead of MDZ.  Some of the teams listed like the Blues and Nash have a True 1A and 1B.

 

While most of these guys I agree are beyond MDZ at this point, but among these guys, there are a few who are far and away more elite than others.

 

Essentially, McDonagh and LeTang may be true #1s on their team, and overall better players than MDZ, neither is in the same league as a Keith or Weber.

[murraycraven]

McDonagh and LeTang may be true #1s on their team, and overall better players than MDZ,

 

 

agree completely.... MDZ is nowhere near McDonagh and LeTang either...

[AndyS]

Top 4 D-man? Sure.

 

A "beast" or part of the essential core of the team going forward? Not so sure about that.