Flyers Salary Cap: 2016-17

[King Knut]

7 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

 

In all probability, you are probably right, it won't hurt, but ...playing devil's advocate, why take the chance?  Besides Hexy has already addressed this issue and he made his thoughts on the subject loud and clear.  We as fans can debate his philosophy all we want, but it won't change his mind.  In the end we all need to be patient and I admit that is very hard to do for this fanbase.

 

In an ideal world I would prefer that Provorov and Konecny be sent to the Phantoms in the AHL, but the NHL and CHL agreement forbids that so that too is a none issue.

 

I admit I would love to see them on the Flyers, BUT if that does not happen and they are both sent back to their respect junior teams, I won't be upset about it.  At this stage in their early careers there is no need to rush them.  The Flyers still have the same basic roster from last year.  I would expect them to be another borderline playoff team.  Don't forget the Las Vegas team entry draft next spring further complicates the picture.

 

 

We'll what Hextall thinks and what they show. I wish the cards weren't stacked against them.  He says if they play the best they'll stay but that's clearly not true.  

 

Minot sure how the Vegas draft affects these guys playing this year. 

 

Gudas & Manning maybe. 

 

 

[pilldoc]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

Bringing up Couturier does nothing for me.  I'm a firm believer that his lack of an offensive game isn't due to lack of development but mostly due to his usage and the systems he's been playing under

 

I say that is 50/50 right there.  I agree his usage and development under previous coaches sucked, but I challenge you....did Coots need to be on the team in 2011-12?  Was his skill level such that it forced Flyers management that he absolutely had to be on the opening day roster? 

I challenge you...what would have hurt if Coots would have instead been sent back to his Junior team.  After all the line of thinking because he dropped in the draft was because he had Mono and his production dropped near the end of the season.  What if in 2011-12 season he was sent back to Junior team?  He could have worked even more on his offensive skills.  He could have worked on his defensive skills.  Without Coots the Flyers still make the playoffs that year. 

 

Lets take this one more step, then in the following year when the lock-out occurred, he could have been developing still more of his offensive game in Drummondville instead of being in Adirondack with the Phantoms.  (Yes he did fairly well with the Phantoms but then struggled when he returned to the Flyers).  What is wrong with him staying the whole year with the Phantoms or god forbid back with his Junior team.

One can very easily make the argument that Coots development could have been vastly different had he remained with Drummondville instead of being rushed to the NHL as an 18 year old.  Maybe Hexy recognizes that the organization made a mistake with Coots (though they will never admit that publicly) and feels that they don't want to make the same mistake with either Provorov and/or Konecny.

It could be a great discussion of "what if's"  However, we deal with reality and the reality is that for what ever reason Coots has not become the offensive player that many thought they were getting when he was drafted.  There are valid arguments on both sides of this debate.  For years I supported Coots being with the Flyers as an 18 yr old, however, looking back on the situation and using some hindsight, now I believe it would have been better if he would have just gone back to his junior team. 

 

Either way, in closing I am ok with Provorov and/or Konecny going back to their junior teams.  Would I be disappointed...sure...but I would understand.  After all,  we all want the same thing. ...that they perform the way we are all hoping they will at the NHL level as they have been doing with their Junior teams and bring home the Stanley Cup to Philadelphia.  We just have some different ideas on how to get their.

[pilldoc]

12 minutes ago, King Knut said:

We'll what Hextall thinks and what they show. I wish the cards weren't stacked against them.  He says if they play the best they'll stay but that's clearly not true.  

 

I'm sure Hexy has a great poker face.....there is no way he will tip his hand this early in the game.

13 minutes ago, King Knut said:

not sure how the Vegas draft affects these guys playing this year

 

It does not affect them directly, but it affects the Flyers indirectly.  With all the rules of who is protected and who is not (see other threads regarding that topic), if Konecny and Provorov are on the Flyers then if potentially could expose players the Flyers may not want to expose.  Do you really think Weiss or Boyd Gordon are in the Flyers long term plans?  Besides being a step up from what they had last year, it gives the Flyers some options on who to expose next spring.  Options that may nor may not be their if Provorov and/or Konecny are on the team.  (I'm just speculating here) Again see the other thread for more details. 

[flyercanuck]

58 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

I appreciate that you read every other word of my post and put them together in ways to support your conflicting options that actually don't conflict.

 

Honestly I'm not. 

 

58 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

-I said that they're not slam dunks.  I said that they're not on the level with those guys.  Those guys made it impossible to say no to especially  because they were so highly touted.  All I am saying about K&P is that they're bubble guys--not like Kane or Ekblad (who many thought shouldn't start in the NHL if you recall)--we can't say for sure either way and at their stage of development in Juniors, keeping them with the Flyers for 9 games probably won't hurt them.  

 

I don't see where you're saying they're not on the level of those guys...just where you name a bunch of superstars who didn't need much time in the A. I don't think 9 games is a terrible idea, but I also agree with Hextall that those 9 games end up taking about 1/3 or more of a junior season away...which isn't helping.

58 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

-Konecny and Provorov are ELITE in juniors.  Are they on a level with Those guys I mentioned?  No.  Are our guys at an elite level above 95% of the juniors?  YES.

 

-Subban was drafted in the 2nd round.  

 

-I brought up Ghost because although he's older, he'd never played an 80+ game season until last year.  In college they play fewer games than in Juniors.  

 

Agreed. 

 

58 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

-Bringing up Couturier does nothing for me.  I'm a firm believer that his lack of an offensive game isn't due to lack of development but mostly due to his usage and the systems he's been playing under.  NO ONE has scored much at all since Lavvy was fired (ecxept for Jake that one year).  But even just being a teensy bit more more off the leash under Hakstol last year he put up .62 Points Per Game which is a vast improvement. 

 

You can call it usage and systems, but his offence wasn't allowed to develop for years since he left junior. 

 

58 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

-These guys have been very clear about their goals.  Send them back and I'm sure they'll compete as well as they can and want to win as much as they can, but they're hungry for the NHL. And the fact that their teams didn't do well in the playoffs is a decent indicator of the kind of talent they'll be surrounded by that will NOT be helping them develop to where they need to be.  

 

Provorovs team made the Memorial Cup. That's the junior equivalent of winning the Stanley Cup AND THEN going on to another tournament. He played 4 rounds of best of 7 in the WHL and won.

58 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

Look, it's a no win situation.  Obviously the best thing for the Flyers would be these guys playing in the AHL.  It would certainly make the AHL a more interesting league if guys of this caliber could play there.  But that would kill several Junior leagues in the process which would damage the overall talent pool.  I get it.  I just think there are a few circumstances that make this year worth taking an extra look at them playing their 9 and maybe... just maybe making the team.

 

I think Provorov can make the Flyers. I think Konecny has a chance. But I also think Hextall is looking down the road at expansion and saying its not worth losing someone valuable for one season on a mediocre team.

 

58 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

And no, they don't NEED Provo to play to trade MDZ or Streit... I'm not saying the NEEDED him for that.  They have Manning, Sanheim and Morin able to come up.  What I meant by that was that last year no matter what, they didn't have the room for Morin.  It would have been extremely tricky for them to keep him up.  This year... not so much. This year there is opportunity.  Last year for Morin, there was literally no option.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Again I agree. And I think we see Morin and maybe Sanheim up for stretches after the trade deadline.

[King Knut]

27 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

 

I'm sure Hexy has a great poker face.....there is no way he will tip his hand this early in the game.

 

It does not affect them directly, but it affects the Flyers indirectly.  With all the rules of who is protected and who is not (see other threads regarding that topic), if Konecny and Provorov are on the Flyers then if potentially could expose players the Flyers may not want to expose.  Do you really think Weiss or Boyd Gordon are in the Flyers long term plans?  Besides being a step up from what they had last year, it gives the Flyers some options on who to expose next spring.  Options that may nor may not be their if Provorov and/or Konecny are on the team.  (I'm just speculating here) Again see the other thread for more details. 

 

I'll have to go find that thread again.  As I understand the rules, their presence would change nothing.  They're not eligible and thus don't need to be protected so it shouldn't affect who is, but I'll be interested to see the theories. 

 

On Coots, bad decisions on his development were made and they're name was Craig Berube. 

 

if they send coots back maybe his offense gets better maybe not, either way he comes up again to play in he AHL for the strike shortened season.  What's that change?  He scored well there as it was.  Then he Has half a season with Lavy if they still decide to bring him up early (they wouldn't have probably, homer would have gone into free agency for the roster Spot with he and Schenn being so unproven) and then on to Berube and his non existent anarchy system. Any progress made would be nullified by a clueless team in chaos. 

 

Chief was was an unmitigated disaster for this team. Bringing in a guy with no plan and no system at a key point in A rebuild was immeasurably stupid. Of course homer never seemed to fully grasp that they were rebuilding even though he initiated it. 

 

One of Homer's three most dumbfounding calls and possibly the most unforgivable. 

 

And none of this changes that coots is just inherently good at his role.  Being able to score 80 pets I juniors isn't going to change the fact that he's good at shutting down top liners. 

 

Maybe be it would have helped him, but thanks to homer and chief, it's a moot point. He still would have been screwed in his development. 

[pilldoc]

29 minutes ago, King Knut said:

On Coots, bad decisions on his development were made and they're name was Craig Berube. 

 

29 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Chief was was an unmitigated disaster for this team. Bringing in a guy with no plan and no system at a key point in A rebuild was immeasurably stupid. Of course homer never seemed to fully grasp that they were rebuilding even though he initiated it. 

 

One of Homer's three most dumbfounding calls and possibly the most unforgivable. 

 

And that there is probably one of the primary reasons why Coots was not properly developed / coached.

 

It is amazing how this single action by Homer really screwed this team.  Look I liked Berube when he was a player....but that was a long time ago.  As a coach he had absolutely no freaking clue what he was doing and for that I lay the blame squarely on the shoulders of Homer.

 

Totally agree with you there on the above said points!

[LegionOfDoom]

Had Coots stayed in Juniors one more year, that would of given him a better foundation to go to the next level in the AHL. But his AHL experience would of not been a great environment with the problems with the leagues. Further compounding his promotion to the NHL.

 

It's kind of like a promising student taken out of high school(Juniors) as an 11th grade student to go to a college, when one more year in high school would of been better for his development.

But then that student also ends up in a college where they party half(season) the school year and don't focus on school. So the college(AHL) didn't do him much good either.

 

Cooter was in a tough situation for his development offensively. Fact

Playing early in the NHL effected his maturity in his offensive game. Fact

Couturier is a smart player and saw this and was aware he needs to improve his offensive game. Fact

He was put in a situation where he couldn't really practice to improve his offensive game. Fact

He is old enough now to put it together in the sense that he can work in the off season to improve on what he didn't or wasn't given a chance to do.

Is he complacent on where he's at as a player or does he truly have the inner drive to want to improve his game and be the offensive player He knows He can be.

Just like Schenn is starting to take those steps now and started to trend in a more offensive manner, I know that Coots can do it too. He already has a hat trick to his list of accomplishments.

Remember Schenn was thrown into a constant rinse cycle and never put in a position to grow with his line mates.

That's why I'm a big advocate in trying to find pairings that players can grow up playing in their development while in the AHL and coach the long game of seeing what type of players can click together. And you put your rookies in those types of situations when they are playing with similar type players when they get into the NHL to ease the transfer of everything going 10 times faster than in the minors. It would be a little bit of a security blanket for some players and the following year they can be weaned out of their egg tooth.

You have assets, when these assets show they can be in the NHL, they are still assets. It's not like we want to make them fall off the nest and say, "Fly biyotch...or die!" 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

On 31/08/2016 at 7:55 PM, King Knut said:

 

I'll have to go find that thread again.  As I understand the rules, their presence would change nothing.  They're not eligible and thus don't need to be protected so it shouldn't affect who is, but I'll be interested to see the theories. 

 

On Coots, bad decisions on his development were made and they're name was Craig Berube. 

 

if they send coots back maybe his offense gets better maybe not, either way he comes up again to play in he AHL for the strike shortened season.  What's that change?  He scored well there as it was.  Then he Has half a season with Lavy if they still decide to bring him up early (they wouldn't have probably, homer would have gone into free agency for the roster Spot with he and Schenn being so unproven) and then on to Berube and his non existent anarchy system. Any progress made would be nullified by a clueless team in chaos. 

 

Chief was was an unmitigated disaster for this team. Bringing in a guy with no plan and no system at a key point in A rebuild was immeasurably stupid. Of course homer never seemed to fully grasp that they were rebuilding even though he initiated it. 

 

One of Homer's three most dumbfounding calls and possibly the most unforgivable. 

 

And none of this changes that coots is just inherently good at his role.  Being able to score 80 pets I juniors isn't going to change the fact that he's good at shutting down top liners. 

 

Maybe be it would have helped him, but thanks to homer and chief, it's a moot point. He still would have been screwed in his development. 

 

Laviolette and Berube are both responsible for Couturier and his lack of development. We saw signs of life under Hakstol and at one point, Coots was on a 60 point pace. My hope is that Hakstoll continues to push him offensively and that the Flyers use Raffl and Gordon for more defensive assignments and lighten the load on Coots while he gets more turns in the offensive zone. That should have been the agendas for Laviolette and Berube, but Holmgren gave them carte blanche to do whatever they want. People talk about how great Lavy is as a coach, but he's done nothing with an uber talented squad in Nashville. Berube will never get another coaching job again. 

[King Knut]

10 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

 

Laviolette and Berube are both responsible for Couturier and his lack of development. We saw signs of life under Hakstol and at one point, Coots was on a 60 point pace. My hope is that Hakstoll continues to push him offensively and that the Flyers use Raffl and Gordon for more defensive assignments and lighten the load on Coots while he gets more turns in the offensive zone. That should have been the agendas for Laviolette and Berube, but Holmgren gave them carte blanche to do whatever they want. People talk about how great Lavy is as a coach, but he's done nothing with an uber talented squad in Nashville. Berube will never get another coaching job again. 

 

Lavy had a guy who could shut down the best.  He used him.  Berube doubled down in that putting him in the D zone all the time.  Under Chief, Coots consistently had the 2nd most minutes among forwards.  

 

I'm hip loping the whole team puts things together under Hak this year.  They were all scoring less. 

 

Coots, Schenn and Jake all showed strong signs of putting it together her, but injuries really dampened coots and Jake and killed what they were building. I hope they can stay healthy and that Schenn keeps on the path he found. 

 

Lavvy...no don't know, I guess you and I have different definitions of uber talented. He's fine. They're fine.  

He took a very strong team to the finals and helped Giroux find his game. 

 

Chief makes him look like Scotty Bowman. 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

Lavy had a guy who could shut down the best.  He used him.  Berube doubled down in that putting him in the D zone all the time.  Under Chief, Coots consistently had the 2nd most minutes among forwards.  

 

I'm hip loping the whole team puts things together under Hak this year.  They were all scoring less. 

 

Coots, Schenn and Jake all showed strong signs of putting it together her, but injuries really dampened coots and Jake and killed what they were building. I hope they can stay healthy and that Schenn keeps on the path he found. 

 

Lavvy...no don't know, I guess you and I have different definitions of uber talented. He's fine. They're fine.  

He took a very strong team to the finals and helped Giroux find his game. 

 

Chief makes him look like Scotty Bowman. 

Injuries absolutely KILLED this club. Giroux played on a bad hip all year that required surgery. Voracek's broken foot that didn't heal quite right. Couturier's shoulder. Del Zotto's wrist. Gostisbehere also had hip and abdomen surgery. They were the walking wounded and they still showed up to play. Hopefully if everyone's healthy (and from the stories I've been reading about Voracek, he's kicked his fitness regime into an all new high level), there's no reason to believe that amongst the top five (Giroux, Voracek, Simmonds, Schenn, Couturier), they can't score a combined 350 points among them. I'm counting Giroux for 90, Voracek 80, Simmonds and Schenn with 70 and Couturier with 60. If Laughton has a break out year (and he's coming into camp with a chip on his shoulder to prove he's a player) or if Konecny cracks the top six, that 350 total should go up to 390 - 400 points amongst the six. Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I'm expecting big things out of the club this upcoming year, especially if Provorov can crack the defense. Add him to Del Zotto and Gostisbehere as the puck movers and offensive guys and this team should be able to bring a whole world of offensive hurt to the rest of the league.

[LegionOfDoom]

I'm hoping that will be a key pickup for this year as brought up, Gordan and Weise being a key part in helping not only Giroux but also Sean Couturier in freeing him up to be more of a offensively counted on threat as a second line center especially, and a big boost offensive threat if he is a third line center. If our rookie prospects talent(or free agent pickup) can push to be a second line group and we can say/have Schenn and Coots as our third line threat, that would be such, such an accomplishment on Hextalls part as a GM. I think Schenn and Coots are talented enough easily for second line assignment, but having them on the third line because we have capable players on the second line, would just be so, so nice.

 

Who's gonna be our pimp sandwich top nine by next year is what I want to know.

Right now we're on a holding pattern on the ice for this year trying to develop in the minors and develop an identity in the pros as Who We Are as a Philadelphia Flyers organization under Hex/Hak shop, and as we move forward to reach the playoffs again.

It's great having one year under his belt as a coach and KNOWING how to coach the Youth under his watch.

My Oh My....