Bleacher Report Rumors/Toronto Fans

[Phillygrump]

There have been a lot of bleacher report rumors about JVR to Toronto written from the Maple Leafs fans perspective.

A lot of them have proposed trades of Gunnason plus junk for JVR, citing that Schenn is way too much to give up for JVR at all.

These Toronto fans make me laugh. I haven't seen anyone over-hype their prospects more than the Maple Leafs except maybe for the Yankees in baseball. These Leafs fans are delusional.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1022445-nhl-trade-rumors-2012-Leafs-and-flyers-discussing-james-van-riemsdyk-again

JVR definitely has a TON of upside. I wouldn't trade him unless he was involved in a trade for Weber.

I had to comment about this because I read these BS rumors and comments from Leafs fans. Unreal.

[aziz]

These Toronto fans make me laugh. I haven't seen anyone over-hype their prospects more than the Maple Leafs except maybe for the Yankees in baseball. These Leafs fans are delusional.

not for nothing, but...put JVR's draft position out of your head for a sec, and tell me how impressed you are. then put his draft position back in your head, and include the fact that schenn was taken only 3 spots later, and in the following draft. JVR's mediocrity thus far in his career is excused time and again by his age, but schenn is 6 months younger playing a position that common wisdom says takes several years longer to excel at.

i don't think leaf fans are any more delusional than flyer fans overhyping their prospects. JVR is still struggling to be a 50 point 3rd liner (22 points in 37 games projects to 49 points over a full 82 games...not there yet). he might grow up and learn to have an impact, but then so could schenn.

Edited January 15, 2012 by aziz

[The Quigster]

Why is it that the only Flyer mentioned,being pursued by other teams is JVR? Apparently he has an upside.

[doom88]

Toronto fans forget that if they want someone, there's a reason. The difference to me is the scouting projections. Luke Schenn projects to a good defenseman, but not a complete one (offense). JVR is a young, big LW projecting to a #1 - with the size combined in, an ever increasingly rare power forward. I really believe JVR has a higher ceiling, and is playing better right now (I'd estimate a #2 LW right now, if he had the ice time regularly). Someone here a week or so ago posted that JVR's progression is actually ahead of Richards and Giroux's paces. I hope we don't sell ourselves short moving JVR just because. Luke isn't good enough, and bluntly, no one really is on Toronto when factoring in age/price/current talent/projected talent.

JVR is looking at roughly a 23 game season with his streaky ice time. That is not bad, and another improvement over the past season.

If we don't trade JVR, I don't think it is a mistake. If he develops to his full projected potential, he will absolutely turn into a force to be reckoned with. Remember, he did start some serious training last summer. Let's see if that attitude is permanent.

[Vincent05]

I'm willing to trade JVR to Toronto if they want him that bad. But they must take Bryz also, just maybe he will waive the NMC to play for the GM who gave him a chance to start somewhere else. Maybe JVR and Bryz for Schenn and Komisarek? I know it hurts to trade JVR but one way for us to get out of that long ass contract.

[doom88]

You don't dump a (near) blue-chip potential player to help unload a contract. Buy Bryz out. Big mistake, egg on face, whatever. He needs to go, and not at the expense of high potential players.

[Vincent05]

@doom88

I'm fine with buying him out but there are 2 years he will have a high cap hit and we will lose players to cover that.

2012-13: $875,000

• 2013-14: -$625,000
  
• 2014-15: $1,375,000
  
• 2015-16: $1,375,000
  
• 2016-17: $1,875,000
  
• 2017-18: $1,875,000
  
• 2018-19: $5,125,000
  
• 2019-20: $6,125,000
  
• 2020-21: $1,708,333
  
• 2021-22: $1,708,333
  
• 2022-23: $1,708,333
  
• 2023-24: $1,708,333
  
• 2024-25: $1,708,333
  
• 2025-26: $1,708,333
  
• 2026-27: $1,708,333
  
• 2027-28: $1,708,333
  
• Schenn and Komisarek will be serviceable shut down dmans we need. Komi has 2 more years after this at 4.5mil/year. This also saves us some money next year and we can resign Carle if you want to. Just an idea cause not everyone wants us to trade our young forwards for d help.
  
• 
  

[aziz]

The difference to me is the scouting projections. Luke Schenn projects to a good defenseman, but not a complete one (offense). JVR is a young, big LW projecting to a #1 - with the size combined in, an ever increasingly rare power forward.

is that really a fair comparison? schenn is incomplete because he is not projected as an offensive power, but JVR is not incomplete even though he is a strictly one-way forward? and it's not like schenn is completely ineffective offensively, he just isn't in the mike green mold. JVR, on the other hand, is useless defensively. for whatever it's worth (because i increasingly find them full of crap), hockey's future pegged schenn as an 8.5B and JVR an 8.0B.

also, shutdown defensemen are not a rare commodity?

Someone here a week or so ago posted that JVR's progression is actually ahead of Richards and Giroux's paces.

mmmm, you gotta squint your eyes pretty hard to see it that way. giroux's 3rd season in the league, he had 76 points. richards had 75...and both of them were top penalty killers. JVR was on a pace for 48 before the injury, and the flyers have few forward options worse for PK duties.

i'm not a big luke schenn fan, but i am becoming less and less of a JVR fan. my decreasing confidence in his future is on hold while he sits out, but i wouldn't shed a tiny bit of a tear if he were moved. i'd call something close to a straight up trade fair. maybe toronto needs to toss in a 2nd round pick. maybe.

[doom88]

Straight up comparisons between defense and offense are tough, I agree. I was trying to kind of compare based on their respective 'slots' in position. Luke Schenn I don't think slots as high amongst defenseman as JVR does against LWs. Shutdown defenseman are not as rare IMO as power forwards, and that is a large reason why I think JVR has more value. JVR doesn't play well in his own yet, but that is more likely to develop than goal scoring in a defenseman committed to playing defense (read: not Mike Green).

I am pissed at JVR, I'll be the first to admit it. I want him to break out right now, but also realize that might be a little unfair (power forwards take just as much time to develop as defenseman). If he can play consistently at that 'wow' level he is capable of, I would hate to see him do it elsewhere.

You did bring up an interesting proposition though, why not put JVR on PK? That might be the wake up call he needs to work hard and play both sides of the ice. I wonder if he could rise to the occasion...

[aziz]

I was trying to kind of compare based on their respective 'slots' in position. Luke Schenn I don't think slots as high amongst defenseman as JVR does against LWs.

i guess my question is: based on what? based on pre-draft scouting reports from may of 2007? that was 4 years ago. based on a week and a half last spring? remember leino two years ago? maybe what we saw briefly in the playoffs is what JVR can become full time, but the bulk of the work doesn't support the theory, imo. as the games and the months and the years go by and i see a player with zero vision and zero creativity, i'm quickly running out of confidence. he's got a nice shot, a nice move to the net, and good size. that'll make him a strong 3rd line player. i'm not seeing a whole lot beyond that. yet, at least.

(power forwards take just as much time to develop as defenseman).

i'm not sure i agree with that. a power forward has to drive the net and look or rebounds/deflections. a good shot and some clever hands are nice, but you either have those or you don't. defensemen, on the other hand, have to learn the nuances of zone coverage in a wide variety of situations, learn composure with the puck as the last man back, learn safe outlets. to me, anyway, it is the FAR more technical position, and thus the one that requires the longest time to figure out and the most maturity to execute. more size = better for a power forward, so i can see physical growth being an issue, but we should at least see the mini-version at this point. and we don't. i don't, anyway.

You did bring up an interesting proposition though, why not put JVR on PK?

well, because he'd get torn up. he doesn't have the head for defensive work. too much thinking, too much adjusting to the play. he isn't tied with simmonds for worst +/- among flyers getting reagular shifts because he doesn't work hard at it, he just doesn't have those tools in his box.

i know i'm being a little more down on him than i should, but i feel like we should see at least a spark at this point. as his draftmates in simmonds and voracek -both far less touted- are finding their stride and learning to fully participate in the offensive zone play, JVR still doesn't seem to have any ability to react to what's happening in front of him. he reminds me of carter a little bit in that way: he decides he gonna shoot next time he gets the puck, and so he fires away whether the shot is there or not. or decides to drive hard to the net next time he gets the puck, and so he drives on in whether it is the best option or not. or...well, there is no "or", those are the only two usefull things he knows how to do. he executes from his pre-planned playbook no matter what, and if things get scrambly, he is basically useless. carter-esque.

point is: i'm more and more of the opinion that JVR will be a commodity of diminishing value. his draft position puts a certain shine on his future, but that will tarnish the longer he remains ineffectual. the flyers can hold onto him and hope, or they can cash him in at current prices and maybe walk away with the wiser investment. i'm not jumping up and down begging for him to be moved, but like i said, i wouldn't be the least bit bothered.

-grumpy aziz

[The Quigster]

Why not put him in a shoot-out every two years?

[terp]

How quickly some people forget. Virtually everyone on the forum bashes Homer for being impatient and failing to allow young players to develop. But now it's time to dump JvR, who has been beat up all season, for failing to progress quickly and steadily enough. In fact, we should trade him for Luke Schenn, another player, in another city, in the dog house for the same thing.

Maybe Flyers management isn't so much impatient as in tune with a portion of its fan base.

Edited January 16, 2012 by terp

[MayonnaiseOreo]

I'd honestly like to see him play with us next year, fully healthy, before we make our final evaluations. He isn't developing like Iginla did as a power forward and certainly doesn't have that drive, but playing injured, especially with a torn stomach muscle, can make it hard to want to give it your all. He looked phenomenal in the playoffs and I give him another year to prove his worth, just like we did with Leino. I really like JvR, he's a good kid, but he's been very disappointing thus far.

[Vincent05]

LMAO If you guys were refering to my post, I was just sugguesting Homer dump Bryz too if Burke wants JVR that bad. I wouldn't want to trade him for Schenn+. If Homer does trade him I rather get Weber with JVR in a package.

[Phillygrump]

not for nothing, but...put JVR's draft position out of your head for a sec, and tell me how impressed you are. then put his draft position back in your head, and include the fact that schenn was taken only 3 spots later, and in the following draft. JVR's mediocrity thus far in his career is excused time and again by his age, but schenn is 6 months younger playing a position that common wisdom says takes several years longer to excel at.

i don't think leaf fans are any more delusional than flyer fans overhyping their prospects. JVR is still struggling to be a 50 point 3rd liner (22 points in 37 games projects to 49 points over a full 82 games...not there yet). he might grow up and learn to have an impact, but then so could schenn.

Its not the fact that they want JVR for Schenn straight up. Its the fact that they put Schenn way ahead of JVR. They speculate JVR for gunnarson? For Kulemin? Give me a break. draft position has nothing to do with it. I personally don't want to give up JVR for Schenn.

JVR for Schenn straight up would be a pretty even deal. I happen to think guys like JVR take more time to develop and learn to use their size to their advantage over more time. I think that gives JVR a ton of upside. I personally don't want to give up JVR for Schenn. I am not impressed with Schenn.

[Phillygrump]

<<The difference to me is the scouting projections. Luke Schenn projects to a good defenseman, but not a complete one (offense). JVR is a young, big LW projecting to a #1 - with the size combined in, an ever increasingly rare power forward. I really believe JVR has a higher ceiling, and is playing better right now (I'd estimate a #2 LW right now, if he had the ice time regularly). Someone here a week or so ago posted that JVR's progression is actually ahead of Richards and Giroux's paces. I hope we don't sell ourselves short moving JVR just because. Luke isn't good enough, and bluntly, no one really is on Toronto when factoring in age/price/current talent/projected talent.>>

Well said Doom. This is exactly how I feel about it. I could care less about draft position when evaluating talent 3 years later into their developent. For me though, JVR's ceiling is higher than Schenn's. I agree he projects further than Schenn. I also think that Toronto is like the Yankees in that, because they get so much media attention, their prospects get very over-hyped.

[flyercanuck]

<<The difference to me is the scouting projections. Luke Schenn projects to a good defenseman, but not a complete one (offense). JVR is a young, big LW projecting to a #1 - with the size combined in, an ever increasingly rare power forward. I really believe JVR has a higher ceiling, and is playing better right now (I'd estimate a #2 LW right now, if he had the ice time regularly). Someone here a week or so ago posted that JVR's progression is actually ahead of Richards and Giroux's paces. I hope we don't sell ourselves short moving JVR just because. Luke isn't good enough, and bluntly, no one really is on Toronto when factoring in age/price/current talent/projected talent.>>

Well said Doom. This is exactly how I feel about it. I could care less about draft position when evaluating talent 3 years later into their developent. For me though, JVR's ceiling is higher than Schenn's. I agree he projects further than Schenn. I also think that Toronto is like the Yankees in that, because they get so much media attention, their prospects get very over-hyped.

I would agree only to the point of people who don't do their homework. The Leafs draft record over the last 40 years is nothing short of horrendous.

[aziz]

I am not impressed with Schenn.

but you are impressed with JVR? his 1-way, not-quite-50-point production?

This is exactly how I feel about it. I could care less about draft position when evaluating talent 3 years later into their developent. For me though, JVR's ceiling is higher than Schenn's. I agree he projects further than Schenn.

what are you basing that on? what spark of genius have you seen that i, obviously, have not? yes, yes, 10 days last spring he was amazing. outside of that? if not the simple fact that he was taken 2nd overall, then what? i have this feeling that had he gone at the start of the 4th round, no one would have a ton to say about him at this point. giroux is years and years beyond him, undrafted rookie matt read is outproducing him (with less icetime), voracek and simmonds have been at least as effective. if not for draft position, he'd just be the flyers' 5th or 6th forward prospect. with couturier and schenn now on the scene, maybe 7th or 8th.

your opinion is your opinion, and i don't mean to attack that. i just find it a little weird for people, in a single post, to talk about fan bases over hyping their players and then follow that up with being positive that JVR will be beast mode one day. they acknowledge he has a one dimensional game (so far), with no creativity (so far), gives an inconsistent effort (so far), has failed to provide any kind of real impact on the ice (so far), and has just generally underwhelmed (so far)...but will one day be a major force to be reckoned with. while the jury has already returned a negative verdict on the younger luke schenn.

and then they say leaf fans overhype their prospects.

[doom88]

Most of us are stopping short of saying JVR will get it together. The thing is, he shows flashes of what he can do here and there. I agree, he doesn't do it all the time, but he's only 22. JVR is a good prospect, but one that needs work and health. Everyone can't be Crosby.

[aziz]

The thing is, he shows flashes of what he can do here and there.

sure, but....

how much do we want to value "flashes"?

[Flyguys03]

JVR has to be one of the most overrated players around. He had a good 6 games in the playoffs last year, and all of a sudden he is a high valued commodity. He is more inconsistent than Jeff Carter.

[doom88]

He is a hurt, 22yr old, big framed, former second overall pick. Bluntly, giving up at 25 could be too early.

[aziz]

my point is only that the same could be said of 22yr old, big framed, former 5th overall pick luke schenn. pronouncing final judgement on one while claiming it is too early to do so for the other seems....inconsistent.

[doom88]

Fair enough, I agree with your logic. I still maintain that Schenn isn't slotted in position to potentially be as good though.

[aziz]

and that's fair. i just can't get past the thought that the "slotting" is based on being the #2 pick (in a weak draft), and not his play and progression since.