elmatus

Seems too crazy to be true, but that is exactly the kind of trade I would consider notable. That is a lot of ifs mate. I do very much hope you're right, and of course it's entirely possible that you are. I think we may be ranking some of the changes a bit differently, which would account for some of the difference in opinion. I will say this, the single biggest change of most importance in my view is the coaching. That alone could make a tremendous difference with this team. If this team does see a huge leap forward, I don't think it'll be because of these recent acquisitions -- it would be 9/10th because of the coaching change. Hart is an important second. As you say, we didn't get good goaltending for much of last season. In my view, bad goaltending just isn't enough to not even make the playoffs. Out of all the teams that make the playoffs in a given year, only a few really have elite level goaltending. A few others may have reasonable goaltending. And then there are always a couple who make it despite their goaltending. Sure, they may not make a cup run (though plenty have), but they at least make it to the playoffs. As far as the off season additions go, I think it's hard to judge those until we see what the coaching staff does with them. Is Braun a top pairing guy? He might be. This is the part I really don't know, as I don't watch him much. If he is though, I'll be curious to see who's riding next to him. Honestly, next to the coaching change, Braun is the player I'll be most interested in seeing come October. I'm kind of bummed that he's really just a rental, but for this year, he should be an improvement if he can be that minute-munching steady-hand kind of guy. Hayes is a reasonable acquisitions. We needed a 2C, and we got one. That Hayes contract will almost certainly become a problem in the future, but as far as next season goes, we got probably the best 2C option we were realistically going to get. I'm fine with that. Folks have talked about him as a good PKer, which is also something we clearly need. So yeah, I'm on board with this. The contract will suck, but I'm on board for the time being. Niskanen's a reasonable pick up as well. It's a shame we're not getting Niskanen from 4-5 years ago, but hopefully this guy can at least shore up 2nd pairing duties and help some of the kids grow a bit. His contract is fine too. Is he better than Gudas? That I don't know. He doesn't really have to be though. He just has to be as good on the ice and hopefully better off the ice. If he can do that, it could be a solid add. I don't know that he'd play the PK, but it's possible I suppose. He's not really a defensive juggernaut, so I figure Braun and Provo are the more likely candidates, but who knows? So yeah, the team should be improved in 2019-20. My previous post was noting the jump from non-PO team to contender as being a big leap. Personally, I'll be content if this team at least makes the playoffs. I'm not expecting miracles at this point, but at least give me some playoff hockey to care about. If they can win a round, I'll be super happy. Anything beyond that would make me ecstatic, as it would seem like one hell of a leap. #PlayoffsOrBust

Cup or bust is just unrealistic. This team didn’t even make the playoffs last year. Sure, they should be better with a full year of Hart and (hopefully) better coaching, but the leap from non-PO team to a cup is a lot to ask. Not to mention Fletch still has yet to really add an impact player to this roster. Hayes is fine (though overpaid), Braun seems decent (i don’t know him enough personally), and Niskanen is reasonable in a limited role. None of those guys are the kinds of players imo that make last year’s mess into a sudden contender. Now, all of that stuff combined should definitely net us a playoff spot. That to be is the bare minimum to consider this coming season a reasonable success.

Every team needs a 4C, @OccamsRazor.

Lots of good points here. I was just looking at it from the standpoint of what we currently lost vs what we gained, which doesn't seem like a big change frankly, but all those picks we lost along the way could very well come back to bite us down the road. Hopefully not, but part of me is still reeling from the homercoaster... I'll reserve judgment for now. I want to see what happens with Hayes and Ghost. In terms of what we have on the ice now, I don't know enough about Braun to have a good sense of what he brings, so it's hard to gauge. If he's a stay at home guy, then that's really something we don't have much. Could be good. Is it worth the picks we sent out for, as you say, a rental? That I'm not so sure. I don't know that Braun is what puts us in a contending spot. Also, I worry we just stocked up on dmen but didn't really get a top pairing guy to go with Provo. Again, I don't know Braun enough, but him being a stay at home guy would seem an odd partner for Ivan, unless of course AV is planning to shuffle the pairings a bit. Ghost or Sanheim would seem like better partners for a stay at home guy imo. It's also entirely possible AV believes Provo can be more offensive, and he wanted Braun so that he'd have a been more freedom on the ice to further develop that side of his game. That would be pretty cool actually. Provo/Braun Sanheim/Niskanen Ghost/Myers or maybe Ghost/Braun Provo/Niskanen Sanheim/Myers And maybe that wouldn't be a bad thing...

I can't imagine his agent would be gunning for that. Provo has high potential, but Karlsson was dominant for much of his career. Even Provo is highly unlikely to ever reach that level. There can be no worse comparison for contract talks imo.

I don't hate Ehlers, but he doesn't fill a pressing need for us right now. Ghost would have to be going in order to get him I bet, and I wouldn't do that until we're sure we have a 2C. Without Ghost as a chip, our chances of getting a 2C seem slim to none. Unless of course Hayes decides to sign. If so, then I dunno. I kind of feel like we could do better for Ghost though. Ehlers isn't my favourite.

Yeah I dunno what to think about this. I guess? Is Braun first pairing material? I don't really watch him much. He's more defensive-minded from what I've heard, which I guess is good. We don't really have any pure stay at home types at this point. I still have no idea what the pairings will look like next season. I feel like we missed the boat on a true first pairing guy. I suppose it's also possible Provo drops to the second and they pair someone more offensively minded (Sanheim? Ghost?) with Braun on the first? Or maybe they ask Provo to step it up and put him with Braun. Should be interesting to see. I have to think Ghost gets moved now. That blueline is crowded, and he's clearly the biggest fish to fry. I imagine it'll be for some forward help, probably a 2C given what's being said about Hayes. Provo/Braun Sanheim/Niskanen Myers/Morin/Hagg (?)

Oh, that I don't know. It's possible his agent is asking for more than that. It's also possible Fletch is low-balling him based on just last season. I really hope not, but we really don't yet know what kind of GM we've got.

I'm not sure it's a problem. Sign him to 6-7M per year for eight, which is about what he likely is worth given last year's fiasco. Signing him to a bridge just means it's entirely possible we'd to have to pay him 10M per by the time it's done, which would suck more.

I really hope so. You have to be right -- right?

Honestly I'm not so sure. Him having a down year will impact his salary anyway. Let's say for a moment he bounces back and develops into the norris contender many have suspected he would become. If he signs a long contract now, it would probably be something like 6-7M for eight. Sure, that's not good if the Provo from last season turns out to be the norm, but it would be a fantastic contract if Provo becomes the next Doughty, which he very well could. Say on the other hand he gets a bridge deal and spends the next two seasons becoming that guy. Suddenly we're on the hook for 10M or more and two of those younger years are behind him. My personal feelings are that last year's Provo just doesn't add up to his potential. A lot went wrong with the team. His fall was so precipitous it almost has to be an anomaly. What other reason could there be realistically? And if thats' the case, he should be signed to term now while his value is comparatively lower than it will be in two years.

Trouba has been pretty open over the last few years about not much liking his current team and wanting out. He's also been very clear about his salary expectations. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy who's too concerned with winning. He wants money, and WPG isn't the place to play if you want money. NYC on the other hand fits the bill perfectly.

I don't like what this is saying at all. I like McAvoy as much as the next guy, but he doesn't have the two-way potential Provo does.

I'm not saying you're wrong about a Subban for Ghost trade. I do think you're wrong about that being an improvement. I like Subban, but he's on a bad contract for what he seems to be capable of at 30. Ghost is a very comparable player to him, is cheaper, younger, and is on a much more reasonable contract. I get that Fletch has said Ghost is on the block, and I honestly think it would be possible to upgrade the team by trading Ghost. I just don't think trading Ghost for Subban is an upgrade. I want to see a solid upgrade already. Ghost is the obvious trade chip to make that happen, but it really should fill a need we have.

I think Fletch legit thought he was getting a reasonable goalie. I'm not sure why he thought that, but I don't imagine he bothered getting the guy just for kicks. He likely figured the guy was just bad because he played for a bad team in Edmonton. What he failed to realize is that Talbot was one of the big reasons why that team has been so bad in the first place. The sad part is anyone paying attention could pretty easily have told him Talbot is a borderline NHL goalie at best. How the brain trust surrounding him didn't pull him away from that one asap is beyond me.

I don't imagine many people are too pissed at getting Niskanen. He's only on contract for a couple of years anyway. I think if the coaching staff wants this guy, they may as well give him a shot at least. If it doesn't work out, he won't be around for long anyway.

Yeah, they're likely just putting him out there in the event someone would be silly enough to pluck him of waivers. I can't imagine a world in which that happens, but I suppose it's worth a shot.

You wouldn't go for Point? I'm not saying he'd even be available at all, but if he were, I would give that a shot for sure. I agree Karlsson would seem more likely given Vegas' cap situation though. I also agree that giving up Ghost for anyone but Karlsson or Point from my previous list is likely to be a mistake.

Karlsson would need Ghost for sure. I'm not sure Kadri would though. In fact, I don't think it would be a good move frankly to trade Ghost for Kadri. But if Fletch can get Kadri for cheaper than that, why not? He's a lot like Hayes really. Either one can plug away as reasonable 2Cs for a few while Patrick (hopefully) figures things out. I like Johansson as well. He's a solid third liner who can play on the wing, and we're in need of a RW anyway with Simmer gone. If Fletch can get him without overpayment, I think he'd be worth getting for that purpose.

A lot depends on perception of course. Fletch has a pretty singular mandate right now of getting this team to the playoffs next season. Period. Anything short of this would be a failure. So where are this team's biggest needs? Well 2C is the most pressing for sure. The UFA market isn't filled with good 2C options though. Hayes is probably the better option on there, and that alone shoots up his value. Someone is going to pay good money to get him, not because he deserves it necessarily, but because the options behind him are even less enticing. That's the definition of a limited market. I do think we might be able to find better by trading Ghost mind you. That's in another thread

Let's say Hayes doesn't sign, either because he wants too much, or just because he'd rather play in NYC or whatever. And let's say Ghost now becomes the chip to get us our 2C. Who would we have as options in that case to target? W. Karlsson? They're cap strapped and he's an RFA. I worry he's going to get a ton of money and not live up to the contract mind you, but he should be on the short list for sure. Turris? Seems unlikely as Nashville is still contending, and they're already trying to move Subban to give cap space. I do like Turris, though he's not a gamebreaker by any means. He'd be just as serviceable as Hayes. Of course, if the price to get Turris is Ghost, I think we could do better elsewhere. Stepan? The Yotes would have to sweeten the pot and send something else with Stepan to even out to Ghost imo, but that's very doable for a team with a bunch of talented and underperforming players. It would leave them even weaker at center than they currently are mind you, but honestly I don't think this team cares much about winning anyway. Point? I highly doubt it after the monster season he had. I would imagine TB will do everything they can to lock him up for some term. Still, it's worth mentioning here. Point is another one, sort of like Karlsson, who could end up being an overpayment based one one very good year. In fact, he's stands to get even higher salary given his good year was just this last one. I personally think he is an elite player though. Anyway, food for thought. Kadri? Toronto is in cap hell with a bunch of key players to sign. Kadri is almost guaranteed to move somewhere, so why not here? It may not even take Ghost to get him, which is great. That said, he doesn't have the potential upside of a Point or Karlsson, so there is that to consider. Getzlaf? It sounds ridiculous, but Getzlaf is in his bottom nine right now with two years left on a pretty big contract. Anaheim is in the gutter and highly likely to go full rebuild starting next season. Is there value in grabbing a guy who was an elite level center for much of his career and put him in a lesser role as a 2C? Is it worth losing Ghost for a guy like 34 year old Getzlaf? Would Anaheim part with him for less than Ghost?

Yeah, the same thing's happening with Hayes too. The difference is we need a 2C something fierce. We don't need what Trouba brings. To me he's more of a "would be nice to have" kind of guy, and I'm not sure I'm interested in overpaying for that.

Yeah, it's a tricky situation. Basically it boils down to how badly we need a 2C. Six a year for Hayes is alright, but more than that seems like an overpayment. At the same time, we need a 2C more than anything else on this team right now, and it's not like they're falling from the sky. Hayes is serviceable in that role, which gives him value in a weak market like this one. That said, we do also have Ghost. A trade involving Ghost for a 2C could open up a solid amount of doors. There's also Kadri out of TO who has been rumoured a bunch. I'd put him about on par with Hayes for the most part, and I'd be fine with either of them at this point. It's a tricky situation really. I haven't been super impressed with Fletch so far, but I'm actually pretty fine with the Hayes thing. It's a major need for us, and he's at least trying to fill it. The alternative of just doing nothing would be far worse imo.

Again, Niskanen really isn't that much better. In fact, at his age and with the season he had last year, he may very well be worse. That said, this remains a wash to me until proven differently. I don't hate the trade, but I don't think this is a big trade by any standard. It's a meh. This forum is suffering an awful lot from blame everyone syndrome. Gudas was one of our better dmen last season. And yeah, that's partially because both Provo and Ghost had down years, but it's still something of note. He revamped his usual game and still managed to be relatively effective when compared to others on the team. Niskanen is generally better offensively, which is nice. But a straight up "who's better" comparison is a hard sell. I'm fine with the trade, but I'm not excited by it either. I want to see a trade that actually makes this team measurably better, and this just isn't that. I'm hoping we do see one in the next bit.

Yeah, no. Let someone else pony up if that's the case for Trouba. The hype train on this guy is unreal. He's had exactly one productive season in his entire career, and his defensive metrics don't exactly make him out to be the next Chara either. Hard pass imo.