vis

16 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Ok. 

 

I just hope this guy doesn't make a bunch of WTF trades trying to fix this club.

Agree with that!  (Btw, not saying you were one of the folks saying that.)

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

How many people hire guys who they are not familiar with and think they can come in and help???

 

So it only work if he has no clue who the guys is and never heard of him...i'm just not following it...i could see if he was an X Flyer but Hak job hangs in the balance with this coaching call...hell i know if it was me in the trench with a guy i would want it to be someone i like and trust can help.

My comment was a poke at the folks who say Chuck Fletcher was a "good ol' boy" hiring citing ties to Clarke in 1992.

Somewhat of a non-sequitur, but I just read that Rick Wilson played college hockey and later coached at North Dakota (albeit at different times than when Hakstol was there).  Another "good ol' boys network" hiring, I tell ya!!

21 hours ago, radoran said:

 

I bet if he was - as you note - winning, he'd still be here. Despite the "toxic" atmosphere, the "spies" in the locker room and the caterers being upset that they have to have menus approved.

For sure.  Tolerance of that behavior rises and falls in accordance with success (or lack of).

21 hours ago, radoran said:

 

The "toxic" part is back fill to justify the firing from where I sit. YMMV, which is fine (I don't think it does).

I certainly think the "toxic" part made it easier for them to part ways.  I initially questioned how much of that kind of talk was just spin, but it certainly seems like there is some fire to that smoke.

21 hours ago, radoran said:

 

I, for one, am looking forward to seeing Dave Hakstol freed from the overbearing influence of a GM that picked his assistant coaches for him. Maybe it starts with Chuck Fletcher picking Rick Wilson?

Lol, I hear you.  Thought I read somewhere that Hakstol was at least consulted about the hiring. 

I do hope we are going to see some different things on the ice, specifically more aggression.  Maybe they will even practice a little harder.  Point is, I wonder if Hextall wanted them to play a safer game and Hakstol will now have the chance to coach the way he wants.  After all, Hakstol was touted as always having aggressive, hard-working teams.  No one would describe this team that way. 

The fact that Clarke (or whoever) talked with Hakstol before Hextall was fired and the fact that Hakstol had a hand in firing Murphy leads me to believe that the org sees Hakstol as a victim of Hextall's reign and not as an accomplice.  If Homer & Crew thought Hakstol was an issue, he would have been fired along with Hextall.  That's not to say that Fletcher won't decide to can him anyway...

34 minutes ago, King Knut said:

but the long and short is if Fletcher waits til the deadline to see what he has, then they might just as well have not fired Hextall.  

Sure.  My comment above was more about timing.  Of course, I expect there to be activity as the deadline draws near .  But I am not expecting him to trade a slew of players in the next two weeks.  That was my point.

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If you trade G, Coots, or Jake without replacing them with TOP TIER talent immediately and this team will fall behind three or four years again.  If you trade Ghost or Sanheim, you will watch them DESTROY and win cups on other teams. 

I don't think they trade anyone in the "core" given the mandate to "win" now.  However, none of them are untouchable in my opinion.  That's my point.

I don't think Ghost or Sanheim can "destroy" or win cups on their own.  That's a bit of hyperbole. On the flip side, what if one of them brought back players that could "destroy" or win a cup here?  You wouldn't make a move like that?

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Trading JVR would be HILARIOUS.  LIKE FRIGGIN' HILARIOUS.  And also a shame because they haven't put him in a position to succeed much this year.  But I'd laugh my ass off.  

Well, he's been hurt most of the season.

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I just don't know where this narrative of "Hextall doesn't want good established NHL talent" is coming from. 

Don't think that's the "narrative" at all.  I think the complaint has been that he's too beholden to prospects and to the "future" than the present.  

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Next year's UFA crop is RIDICULOUSLY better than last year's.  The idea that he just wasn't ever going to do anything after he clearly just did stuff as soon as he was able is just silly and rooted in Philly Phan impatience and surliness.

You realize GMs can make trades, right?  That not all player acquisitions come through the draft or via FA?  You realize that when teams underperform, that GMs seek to upgrade or make changes in the middle of the season via trades, right?  Especially where there are glaring holes in the lineup.

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Blame him for what he did and didn't do when he could (aka Grabner and Halak this past summer I guess) but based on his MO so far and by his own admission 4.5 years ago, he was playing a 5 year game of chess and he'd just gotten to the last stage.  

Yes, and in year 5 his team was almost dead last in the league with little to no improvement.  That's damning.  The team should have been performing much better than it is at this point.

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Who is the right guy with Hart waiting in the wings though?  I keep hearing about him, I keep looking around the league to find him, and I keep not seeing him and every time I ask about this mystery man, no one seems to have an answer.   

This question has been asked and answered.  Search under my posts.

34 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Same with Panarin.  We're mad at Hextall for not improving the roster.  THIS IS IMPROVING THE ROSTER.  What are the players that are better than what they have that would suffice?  

I don't think anyone faulted him for not getting Panarin.  But I can see how saying that fits your "narrative."

34 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Frankly, with Fletcher, I expect they did what most stupid bosses do when they try to replace someone... they went with the guy who told them exactly what they wanted to hear instead of with the guy who said the smartest stuff. 

Look, I'm not in love with the idea of Fletcher.  But I'm not dismissing him either.  George McPhee failed the Capitals for years.  But he went on to build a great Vegas team.  Dean Lombardi didn't win **** in San Jose before going to LA.  Jim Rutherford won a cup in Carolina, but many thought he was washed up before he joined the Pens.  Just because a guy didn't have great success doesn't mean he can't find it somewhere else. 

34 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Seriously, what Flyers coach since say, Keenan did more with less than Stevens accomplished?  

What he did last year with that geriatric dump truck load of cinder blocks in LA was nothing short of miraculous.

He's not a good head coach no matter how many times you try to say it.

Last thought on Hextall:

Have you ignored all the other reports about how "toxic" the environment had become under Hextall?  Do you not think that played a role, if not a primary role?  It's one thing to act the way Hextall allegedly did when the team is successfull.  You can swing your dick any way you want when you're winning.  But the team wasn't winning.  And when you're not succeeding, people don't tolerate that kind of behavior.  I bet if he fostered a different type of environment and been less of a dictator (if you believe what you read), he'd still be here.

7 hours ago, King Knut said:

I really really hope not.  

You know, it may not.  If he's got any sense about him, he'll watch this team - on and off the ice - and see what he has.  Maybe with Hextall removed, this team starts playing to its potential.  He still has holes to fill.  But maybe we won't see anything too drastic - at least not in the short term.

7 hours ago, King Knut said:

If it's me, I don't trade anyone but  Weal, Raffl, Lehtera, Weise, Mac, Folin, Neuvirth, Lyon and maybe Simmonds depending on how the team is looking and what his agent is asking for at the deadline.  

Other than Simmonds, no one wants that trash.  If this team continues looking like it has for the better part of the season,  I'm open to trading almost anyone from the roster other than Provorov, Konecny and Patrick.

7 hours ago, King Knut said:

The fact of the matter is (and Hextall friggin' knew this) everything the Flyers need becomes available this summer (a year the Flyers just happen to have $32 million to spend.  

He may have known it, but whether he would have done something about it - and done it right - is another story.  

7 hours ago, King Knut said:

If it's me, I target, Panarin, Gardiner, Varlamov or maybe Duchene (we still need a 2C/3C) and Nilssen (if you can't get Varlamov) are UFA's to target this summer.  It really doesn't make sense to trade actual assets like Sanheim and Myers for anything like that now.

Depends on a few things.  I'm not sure Varlamov or Nilssen are the rights guys with Carter Hart waiting in the wings.  I really don't know if they should make a play for Panarin.  I think it will cost too much.

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You can't get all of them this summer because you have to resign Provo, Sanheim, Laughton, Konecny and Stolarz (I'm gonna go ahead and pull an I told you so on that one so far) to bridge deals.  Luckily Provo is having a god awful season and ruining his bargainnng ability in the process, but Konecny is going to get PAID, especially if he keeps it up and in light of the Nylander deal.

Yes, all that cap space will go to some important signings this year.  Less concerned about Stolarz and Laughton.  I think Sanheim gets a reasonable deal.

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But I still have some faith in Morin when he's able to return (not sure it should be this year necessarily) and Myers, so if they need to trade Sanheim, I won't get too upset.  He would win cups in Toronto if he goes there though.  

I don't know about Morin and Myers.  Morin is going to have a difficult time making it back.  I was hoping Myers would be dominant in the AHL, but I'm not sure that's been the case.  Any insight?

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As far as the coach goes, I'm still not sure if Quennville is the right guy for this team, but I won't have a fit if he's brought in now.

I'd rather see Keefe or someone a little more forward thinking at least considered first and most of those types are Mid-season somewhere.  

They passed on Zito and they will pass on Keefe.  They seem to want established NHL guys.

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but frankly, I'd just as soon see Stevens brought in as an interim to finish the season and publicly call it a "Favor to the organization".  Consider letting him stay on as an Asst. under the new regime if he's up for it.  

Absolutely not.

22 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Plus, do we really want guys that aren't really "in the plans" in Toronto coming here ?

Well, one is already here...

Seriously, the Leafs are going to have a cap crunch.  They need to start figuring things out sooner rather than later.  And given his production and contract, it's something I would consider.

Yes, I recall that he's a bit of a douche...

7 minutes ago, brelic said:

Even if Hextall did micromanage, the reality is that Hakstol has been here 4 years and has had plenty of time to put his stamp on the team, regardless of who his assistants are. IMO, he hasn't really done that to any effective degree. 

I kind of hear you on this.  I'm not trying to defend Hakstol that much, but if Hextall has been preventing him from putting his stamp on the team - i.e., playing the way Hakstol wants them to play - is that really a bad reflection on Hakstol?  Plus, I have some sympathy for Hakstol because he's been given a **** sandwich in net for years and at times I've wondered how he's been able to get the team to perform given the roster.  I'm kind of giving Hakstol a clean slate, actually - for the rest of this year.  But, if Q says he wants the job....

7 minutes ago, brelic said:

But if Fletch tries hard enough, maybe he can pry Kadri from them for Simmonds in a package. He'd become our 2C, push Patrick to 3C. 

 

Kadri also played some time with JVR.

I'm cool with that, depending on what goes the other way.  The Leafs are crowded down the middle, no?  Kadri seems to be the odd man out and he has a reasonable deal.  

7 minutes ago, brelic said:

Yes, no doubt. I just hope it's a splash worth making, and not one 'just because'.

Flyers don't play until Thursday.  What are the chances he makes a trade before then?

10 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I hope it works out, obviously.

Uh, he did trade Brent Burns away. 

And he did cripple the Wild with those Parise and Suter contracts which will be on the books until the asteroid hits in Donald Trumps 3rd term.

Needless to say, I don't have the "high hopes". 

This is where I am.  I hope Fletcher - and Holmgren - have learned from past mistakes and put those lessons to good use.  However, I'm not feeling all that great about it.

http://www2.philly.com/flyers/chuck-fletcher-philadelphia-flyers-general-manager-gm-hired-source-20181203.html

Should get interesting quick...

37 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

 

No, he did not. There were no invites to camp this year.

Thanks.  I wonder if he'll catch on elsewhere.  There was such a buzz about him and then he was released.  Put up decent stats this past year and still went undrafted.  

4 hours ago, pilldoc said:

https://www.nhl.com/flyers/news/flyers-open-2018-development-camp-june-28--philadelphia-flyers/c-299267066

 

Flyers Open 2018 Development Camp June 28

The Flyers will take the ice for their 2018 Development Camp on Thursday, June 28 at the Virtua Center Flyers Skate Zone in Voorhees, NJ

 

Flyers Development Roster.pdf

 

 

Thanks.  Didn't see this until now.  Any significance to jersey numbers?  I seem to recall not, but figured I'd ask.

Looking forward to hearing reports on Hart, Frost and Allison in particular.  Myers should dominate.

Did that Korosenkov kid get drafted this year?  Thought he was eligible this year again.

Wonder if we will see him invited back.  Some stats from this year:

Regular Season: 63GP 36G 46A 82PTS 46PIMS +33

Playoffs: 14GP 4G 12A 16PTS 16PIMS +2

16 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I see the justification for criticism, I also think he'll rebound from this year.

Fair points.  Good chat.

@mojo1917

Over the past three seasons, his point totals have decreased from 86 to 73 (-15.1%), 73 to 67 (-8.2%) and from 67 to 58 (-13%).  It's three years of decline.  I'm not sure where you draw comfort that he will produce an increase in production.   They literally signed a player to take away some of his "hard minutes" and his production still fell.   

Do do you think $8.25m for less than 70 points is value?  I could be ok with mid-70s.  But that's a 15 point increase over last year.  That's seems like a tall order.  

I hope his production doesn't dip further.  I didn't think it would this pst year.  But it needs to drastically improve, imo, above where it was the season before this.  I don't see a lot of evidence that it will.  

@csummers

Does declining performance over the past three years give you much faith that he will regain $8.0/year performance?  Again, it's not a one year phenomenon.  I don't know why you keep saying that.

And, yes I think continuity is important.  You need to build and maintain an identity.  But I don't think you can retool or whatever they want to call it.  I think you're more apt to remain a middling team, rather than a team with a legitimate chance year after year.  If you're going to rebuild, I think you have to go all-in.  And that means evaluating everyone on your roster.  There can be no sacred cows.  That's all, I think, the "trade Giroux" crowd are saying.  It's something to consider, not something that must be done.  If it may help you in the long run, why not consider it?

28 minutes ago, csummers said:

Could be worse, could have stamkos. But you would be calling for him to be traded too so it wouldnt matter. You would just find the best players, and blame them. 

Right...that's exactly what I'm advocating...

1 hour ago, csummers said:

 I just told you, lucic for one.  it changes over time and in three or four years what will you see? . Right now, bobby ryan, 7.5 million dollar cap hit, has not scored 60 points since the 10/11 season. Lucic cap hit is 6 million, Ryan oreilly, 7.5 hit, only scored over 60 points once in his career, rick nash was a special kinda player this year with 36 points and a 7.8 million dollar cap hit. Is kopitars cap hit of 10million worth the 50 whole points he got? how about Kesler?

I wouldn't consider any of those players grinders (i.e., third/fourth checkers).  Are they overpaid?  Yes.  I'm not a huge Lucic fan - and I think his contract is bloated - but he has scored 20+ goals had at least 50 points in each of his last two seasons. Ryan O'Reilly - again, a bloated contract - had 60 and 55 points in his last two years and is three years younger than Giroux.  Kopitar's contract is absolutely ridiculous.  Rick Nash's deal has been laughable for years (but only has one year left).  But these guys aren't "grinders."

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 Kesler is a second line center on anaheim with a 7.8 million dollar cap hit, almost the same as girouxs. Thats a second line center, cap hit almost the same as girouxs.

As for Kesler, his cap hit is $6.875m - not $7.8m.  He had 22G and 36A (58pts - same as Giroux).  Less than half of his points were on the PP.  

For the record, Giroux's cap hit is $8.275m (not $8.0m).  So, as long as we are being accurate, that's a difference of $1.4m and not "almost the same as girouxs."

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 Its a long term deal, judge it as the market moves up arouund him. Basing a career on a bad year he went into with an injury from the world cup is not fair.

I am.  And right now, he is overpaid and likely will be again next year if recent trends in his "production" persist or don't reverse drastically.  His point totals have been in steady decline for the last three years.  And it seems that injuries have played a part in each of those years, which is also concerning.  In those three years, they missed the POs twice and in the other year lost in the first round (in which Giroux had 1A and the team could have been out sooner but for Neuvirth's heroics).

Still didn't answer my question: do you think Claude Giroux is performing up to his contract?  At what point do you think the Flyers are getting value for his contract?

36 minutes ago, csummers said:

 Its just a certain bunch of flyers fans that always want to get rid of the best players in order to rebuild. Giroux has a cap hit of 8 million. In a couple years, it almost is now, that will be the going rate for a second line center, grinders are getting 6 million against the cap now. Thats why they do these long term deals.

Among forwards, Giroux is a top 10 cap hit but nowhere near top 10 in production.  You don't think he's under performing his contract at the moment?  Do you think he'll become a better "value" going forward?

What "grinders" are getting $6m against the cap in what are considered market deals?

Sure, you do long term deals hoping that as production falls, the median rises.  Ideally, it works that way.  But Giroux seems well ahead of that curve, absent a sizable turnaround (e.g., around 75 points next year).

The reason "a certain bunch of flyers fans" want to "get rid" of the best players is because Giroux will be well past his prime by the time this team could be ready to seriously contend for the Cup on a regular basis.  If you can get something of reasonable value for him today which could help you in the future, why wouldn't you do that?  I don't think anyone is suggesting to trade him for nothing.  But he should not be off-limits, either.