if kronwall hit was clean....

[B21]

@Vanflyer

Very well said. I just get the impression that the issue the blown call + the Kunitz factor and not just the blown call. The blown call alone was evened out. I think the general....ill will?...towards Kunitz is making a lot a Flyer fans more upset about the blown call aspect. Just a hunch...if that were Paul Martin giving Hartnell the face in the ice, I don't think there would be nearly as much vitriol.

I don't think they league condones his actions by "missing" an extra 2:00 (or the 5:00 major). It was just...missed. That doesn't mean because it was missed there should be a fine added though.

[Vanflyer]

@B21

I will settle for a phone call- which to me is the acknowledgement that the refs during the game missed the call and what Kunitz did deserved a harsher in game punishment, which is what I really want.

[terp]

@B21

Paul Martin has been around long enough to know that in a game like yesterday's, if you give Hartnell a whack he's going to return the favor. James Neal should know that if you but into a situation like that, you get a matching penalty. So far, so good. By the way, Hartnell didn't dive. He fell, like he does all the time.

The mistake the officials made was not warning Kunitz and then giving him a misconduct. You have to break it up when the officials tell you to stop. This is so that people don't get hurt and so that the game doesn't turn into pro wrestling. How the whole thing started is irrelevant. Kunitz deserved a misconduct as would anyone else who ignored instructions to knock it off.

[Phillygrump]

Kunitz deserved a misconduct as would anyone else who ignored instructions to knock it off.

Do you think Rinaldo would have gotten a misconduct if he did that?

[terp]

Do you think Rinaldo would have gotten a misconduct if he did that?

Of course. The only thing i can imagine is that the officials condoned it because they wanted Hartnell to settle down. That's a load of **** though.

[mojo1917]

@B21

i haven't watched the video from that tussel over and over so, i'm remembering my take from that time and those replays... emotion will for sure be entering into it because it is a memory . my take was hartnell is pretty helpless, and kunitz continued going to work on him mma style while the linesmen were laying on mostly hartnell while trying to pull kunitz off the pile, in that scrum there was the elbow pad on the noodle for sure and skates near a man who was down on the ice. so take from that what you will. kunitz's behavoir isn't going to wind up on miss manners as a good example though.

as for chris pronger, he hasn't really played much in the last two years, the year prior, he was on his good behavior, those couple of years in anaheim he was not in the news for being a stain on the sweater. i didn't follow him all that much in edmonton and st louis other than to know he had a big shot and a mean streak, i was more concerned with scott stevens and his atrocities, and i don't recall pronger making the news bertuzzi style, ever. so again take from that what you will, i am a flyers fan , didn't like what kunitz was doing and probably won't like what the league will do afterwards. in this matter there isn't a whole lot of logic to be applied.

[doom88]

@B21

I'll admit, I'll never forgive Kunitz for his knee on knee hit on Timonen in the playoffs, taking him out. Kunitz has had his share of dirty hits on the Flyers, and in my opinion, the Flyers would not have been as fortunate should they do the same. I will freely admit some bias here.

To the point though, Kunitz was grinding another mans skull into the ice. Not helmet, skull. The entire Pens line on ice was on Hartnell, and not one single 3rd man in. The refs broke everything up, Kunitz re-engages, and literally smashes Hartnell's face into the ice. That isn't warranted on anyone, even PK Subban.

Cooke and Pronger should only be in the same sentence when it comes to players who made the NHL. Cooke was a pure scumbag, and Pronger was a perennial all-star defenseman, proven elite leader, and a champion. Of course I wanted Pronger on the Flyers, you have TWO of the best centers in the world, and OV was still a major threat at that point in time. Any snarl was a bonus, but the Flyers needed a big, talented defenseman to keep those studs in some relative check.

Kunitz intended to injure Hartnell, period. You don't do that to another guy, there is a line.

[B21]

@B21

Paul Martin has been around long enough to know that in a game like yesterday's, if you give Hartnell a whack he's going to return the favor. James Neal should know that if you but into a situation like that, you get a matching penalty. So far, so good. By the way, Hartnell didn't dive. He fell, like he does all the time.

The mistake the officials made was not warning Kunitz and then giving him a misconduct. You have to break it up when the officials tell you to stop. This is so that people don't get hurt and so that the game doesn't turn into pro wrestling. How the whole thing started is irrelevant. Kunitz deserved a misconduct as would anyone else who ignored instructions to knock it off.

Absolutely disagree.

1 - Martin should not expect a two-handed baseball whack in return for a poke...

2 - Hartnell was just as bad as Kunitz in this scrap....

Around the :23-:24 I see Hartnell throwing punches at a Pen who he's got pinned down...

At :28-:33 I see TWO Flyers (Hartnell and Giroux) going after Letang...

I see an official trying to keep Hartnell back and Hartnell having none of it. Sound familar?

THEN I see Kunitz go after Hartnell (great job by Grossman letting him go, BTW)...

THEN I see everything Kunitz do everything that you guys are taking issue with AFTER Hartnell did THE EXACT SAME THING...

There is now way anyone can take issue with what Kunitz did and not have a problem with what Hartnell did. Hartnell got 2:00 for the slash and 2:00 for roughing. Neal and Kunitz 2:00 for roughing. As long as Kunitz's minutes equal Hartnell's (plus the extra 2:00 for the slash) I don't see how anyone can get THAT worked up over this. BOTH Kunitz and Hartnell kept at it while the officials were tring to break it up. And if you watch the officials trying to pull Kunitz off Hartnell (end of the clip) you see Hartnell WON'T LET GO OF KUNITZ.

[B21]

@doom88

<< To the point though, Kunitz was grinding another mans skull into the ice. Not helmet, skull. The entire Pens line on ice was on Hartnell, and not one single 3rd man in. The refs broke everything up, Kunitz re-engages, and literally smashes Hartnell's face into the ice. That isn't warranted on anyone, even PK Subban. >>

That's way way WAY too strong a description...grind his skull? I posted a link of the event in another thread. That's not even close. BTW, before Hartnell got the face wash while his head was on the ice, he was punching a Pen he had pinned down. Any issues there? Here's the clip...

I'm not absolving Kunitz here but in the situation - however many penalty minutes they give out or whatever they decide to call - Hartnell and Kunitz should even out.

<< Cooke and Pronger should only be in the same sentence when it comes to players who made the NHL. Cooke was a pure scumbag, and Pronger was a perennial all-star defenseman, proven elite leader, and a champion. Of course I wanted Pronger on the Flyers, you have TWO of the best centers in the world, and OV was still a major threat at that point in time. Any snarl was a bonus, but the Flyers needed a big, talented defenseman to keep those studs in some relative check. >>

So Pronger gets a pass because he is good!?!?!? Have you even looked at the man's rap sheet? EIGHT suspensions. Stick to the throat. Kicking. Stomping with the skate. That's all OK with you?

[B21]

@mojo1917

<< I haven't watched the video from that tussel over and over so, i'm remembering my take from that time and those replays... emotion will for sure be entering into it because it is a memory . my take was hartnell is pretty helpless, and kunitz continued going to work on him mma style while the linesmen were laying on mostly hartnell while trying to pull kunitz off the pile, in that scrum there was the elbow pad on the noodle for sure and skates near a man who was down on the ice. so take from that what you will. kunitz's behavoir isn't going to wind up on miss manners as a good example though. >>

Repeating a response to another post but here goes (no biggie). How "helpless" does Hartnell look around the :23-:24 second mark when he's punching a Pen he's got pinned to the ice? How much "respect" is he showing to the official who is tring to hold him back while he and Giroux go after Letang? Aren't these the exact same things you guys are say are reasons Kunitz should have been fined or even suspended for? So why is no one saying Hartnell should be fined or even suspended either?

In this case, Hartnell's minutes and Kunitz's minutes should have even upped...really doesn't matter if they both get roughing or 5:00 majors. Neither was "better"/worse than what the other did (plus the 2:00 for Hartnell's slash).

<< as for chris pronger, he hasn't really played much in the last two years, the year prior, he was on his good behavior, those couple of years in anaheim he was not in the news for being a stain on the sweater. i didn't follow him all that much in edmonton and st louis other than to know he had a big shot and a mean streak, i was more concerned with scott stevens and his atrocities, and i don't recall pronger making the news bertuzzi style, ever. so again take from that what you will, i am a flyers fan , didn't like what kunitz was doing and probably won't like what the league will do afterwards. in this matter there isn't a whole lot of logic to be applied. >>

Well there's been very few Bertuzzi-like instances. But Pronger's playoff stomp made a lot of headlines for sure. He has been incident free since 2009 when he came to Philly. I said this somewhere else...that's not my issue. The issue is everything Kunitz and Malkin and Cooke have gotten killed for does not even come close to what Pronger did before coming to the Flyers. It's not even close....and we all know how dirty that trio can be or was in Cooke's case. Yet I never saw a single negative comment about what kind of BS Pronger had pulled in his career when he was acquired. I am told it's "OK" since Pronger is a HOF defenseman but Cooke is still a POS. That's totally hypocritical.

[terp]

@B21

I don't think it much matters how it started but I'll humor you. If someone slashes me as I'm leaving the ice, I don't stop to think about whether it is a tap or a two handler. It's a challenge and it's going to get a response that might be disproportionate. This is business as usual, so I think you're not being very objective or very realistic by trying to frame the whole incident with Hartnell's "bad act". It's irrelevant. In fact, Martin did something smart and got his team a power play by goading Hartnell into a penalty. His teammates weren't as smart and reacted disproportionately themselves.

You're also not being very objective by saying Hartnell crossed the same line Kunitz did. You don't like what Hartnell did but again, it was business as usual. On the other hand, Kunitz refused to quit for a while after two linesmen got involved to separate him and Hartnell. That almost always crosses a line with the officials. I guaranty the linesmen didn't like it and they would be justified to complain about the lack of consequences because it was not only a pain in the *** to wrestle the two for so long but set a bad precedent. It is very unusual to see a player, especially a player with Kunitz' reputation, get away with continuing an altercation for so long after the linesmen wade in to separate two players. Again, you may not like what Hartnell did, but he didn't cross the line Kunitz crossed.

[B21]

@terp

<< I don't think it much matters how it started but I'll humor you. If someone slashes me as I'm leaving the ice, I don't stop to think about whether it is a tap or a two handler. It's a challenge and it's going to get a response that might be disproportionate. This is business as usual, so I think you're not being very objective or very realistic by trying to frame the whole incident with Hartnell's "bad act". It's irrelevant. In fact, Martin did something smart and got his team a power play by goading Hartnell into a penalty. His teammates weren't as smart and reacted disproportionately themselves. >>

It's not "irrelevant" what Hartnell did. It was the culmination of a lot of "carelessness" with his stick the entire game. On the Martin slash, I poke you with my stick. You maybe poke back or give me one of those quick cross checks to the mid section. We push and shove...maybe a face rub...2:00 each. Maybe nothing depending on what kind of mood the refs are in...but whatever it is, it's even. The Pens not being able to walk away resulting in the minutes evening up is not an issue to me at all. That was a fair end result to all this. I wish they did walk away but they chose instead to retaliate and that retaliation was appropriate.

Hartnell didn't just give Martin a quick poke back. He took a very hard two handed whack. Sorry but that is a big difference than what expected retaliation for Martin's actions "should" be and is part of the reason Kunitz went after him.

<< You're also not being very objective by saying Hartnell crossed the same line Kunitz did. You don't like what Hartnell did but again, it was business as usual. On the other hand, Kunitz refused to quit for a while after two linesmen got involved to separate him and Hartnell. That almost always crosses a line with the officials. I guaranty the linesmen didn't like it and they would be justified to complain about the lack of consequences because it was not only a pain in the *** to wrestle the two for so long but set a bad precedent. It is very unusual to see a player, especially a player with Kunitz' reputation, get away with continuing an altercation for so long after the linesmen wade in to separate two players. Again, you may not like what Hartnell did, but he didn't cross the line Kunitz crossed. >>

"Almost" crosses the line is not grounds for a suspension or even a misconduct. Hartnell also did not quit for a noticeable amount of time when the officials were trying to pull him away from Letang. Hartnell also took a few punches at a guy he had pinned to the ice. Does that not cross a line? I've seen many a poster say it does. I guess not when a Flyer does it though? Also, are you arguing that because it took the refs longer to get Kunitz off Hartnell (in part because Hartnell would not let go) than it did to get Hartnell away from Letang that Hartnell gets absolved and Kunitz doesn't? I could argue that the Flyers fan who keeps omitting the Hartnell punchces is also not being objective...even more so than you say I am being. Bottom line, if Kunitz's actions in that scrum crossed this line then there is no way one can say that Hartnell's didn't either.

[mojo1917]

@B21

You were on the philly site when the Pronger trade took place, the forum was hardly unified in whether or not the trade was good, how much Pronger had left in the tank, and if the price was too steep and the contract too long.... he didn't come into town like jesus on palm sunday B. i bet half of us were skeptical of the move at best, no one was really thinking of what "other baggage" he might bring, he already skates like just born pony and had a personality that in the best light can be described as mercurial.

that said the hartnell vs the penguins scrum is such a bar fight spilled onto the sidewalk that who knows what the sam hill was really going on, but when the cops got to the scene to break it up kunitz kept on fighting, now in the real world that guy gets thrown in the squad car and worked over for a little ,out of view of the public for "resisting arrest" . and if i'm hartnell in that situation with 3 guys squaring up on me, i'm swinging at whatever i can hit until the cops come. once the cops have a hold of me i'm thinking time to stop, cause i don't want to wind up in the squad car...

i can appreciate you sticking up for your guy, but i don't like him, i don't like what he did and there's nothing that you're going to post or write that's going to make me see him in a different light, in fact i bet he pokes the sick kids at the hospital when he visits...if he even visits.

[mojo1917]

that last bit is an attempt to keep it light, i don't need clipping from the post gazette detailing kunitz's charity work.

[xganarchy]

I hardly think Hartnell AND Giroux were going after Letang. Letand and Giroux were tied up and Letang started jabbing at Hartnell, Giroux continued to just grab on to Letang and Hartnell gave a few weak shots back. Nothing big there. And I'm just not seeing Hartnell "repeatedly punching" a Penguin who is down, it looks like 3-4 guys were all on the ice together and Hartnell was getting back up. On the Youtube vid it wouldn't show the seconds at the bottom so I couldn't pinpoint the moment.

[terp]

@B21

Your point seems to be that Hartnell "started it" because he responded disproportionately. I still say it is irrelevant. I also still say that if you put your stick on another player after the whistle in a game like that, you might feel some more serious lumber coming back at you. The way the altercation started was very typical in all respects and I've seen altercations including far worse offenses end immediately when the linesmen intervened.

The atypical aspect occurred when Kunitz refused to end the altercation when the Hartnell was on the ice and the linesman intervened to end the scrap. This is, in fact, unusual. Players usually pay a price for ignoring the authority of the officials and essentially delaying the game. I would expect a Flyer player to receive a misconduct for that. The Pens caught a break.

[B21]

@mojo1917

<< You were on the philly site when the Pronger trade took place, the forum was hardly unified in whether or not the trade was good, how much Pronger had left in the tank, and if the price was too steep and the contract too long.... he didn't come into town like jesus on palm sunday B. i bet half of us were skeptical of the move at best, no one was really thinking of what "other baggage" he might bring, he already skates like just born pony and had a personality that in the best light can be described as mercurial. >>

That's kinda my point. Skeptical of the move because of the length of the deal, the #1 picks given up, etc. That's a lot different than having a problem with the actual player and his lengthy rap sheet.

<< that said the hartnell vs the penguins scrum is such a bar fight spilled onto the sidewalk that who knows what the sam hill was really going on, but when the cops got to the scene to break it up kunitz kept on fighting, now in the real world that guy gets thrown in the squad car and worked over for a little ,out of view of the public for "resisting arrest" . and if i'm hartnell in that situation with 3 guys squaring up on me, i'm swinging at whatever i can hit until the cops come. once the cops have a hold of me i'm thinking time to stop, cause i don't want to wind up in the squad car... >>

To which I would argue that didn't Hartnell not listening to the refs also contribute to the extended "bar fight"? The swing-at-anything benefit of the doubt has never been afforded to a Pen in a similar situation by a Flyers fan...why does that change now that it's Hartnell? Plus, when Hartnell was throwing punches, he wasn't being threatened and wasn't surrounded by 3 Pens. He was on top of a guy who was down on the ice.

<< i can appreciate you sticking up for your guy, but i don't like him, i don't like what he did and there's nothing that you're going to post or write that's going to make me see him in a different light, in fact i bet he pokes the sick kids at the hospital when he visits...if he even visits. >>

Hey - not for me to tell you who to like/not like and I'm by no means absolving Kunitz either. I just have an issue with the Flyers fan calling for misconducts, fines and suspensions for Kunitz when the video clearly shows Hartnell taking party in equally "punishable" acts.

[B21]

@B21

Your point seems to be that Hartnell "started it" because he responded disproportionately. I still say it is irrelevant. I also still say that if you put your stick on another player after the whistle in a game like that, you might feel some more serious lumber coming back at you. The way the altercation started was very typical in all respects and I've seen altercations including far worse offenses end immediately when the linesmen intervened.

The atypical aspect occurred when Kunitz refused to end the altercation when the Hartnell was on the ice and the linesman intervened to end the scrap. This is, in fact, unusual. Players usually pay a price for ignoring the authority of the officials and essentially delaying the game. I would expect a Flyer player to receive a misconduct for that. The Pens caught a break.

Who started it really doesn't matter....even though I will say that Hartnell's slash was the first action in the whole deal that was worthy of a penalty and it was that action that I would like to think Kunitz was retaliating for. As for who started what...really not an issue here.

Every point you make about Kunitz's actions being unusual can also be said about Hartnell's - and I don't mean the slash. I mean the punches thrown at a player on the ice and Hartnell's own disregard for the officials attempts to keep him from getting at Letang. Hartnell was punching a played pinned down on the ice. Kunitz gave a lengthy face rub to a player pinned down on the ice. Which is worse? I'd call it even.

The minutes evened up so there really wasn't a break either way.

[xganarchy]

Kunitz gave a lengthy face rub to a player pinned down on the ice. Which is worse? I'd call it even.

face rub? He was ramming his padded elbow down on Hartnell's helmet-less head! And like i said in my other post, I'm still not 100% sold that Hartnell was "punching" a Pens player on the ice, it just looked like a giant pileup at that point IMO

[xganarchy]

Oh, and Kunitz was on top of Hartnell from :54 seconds to 1:25 or so...about 30 seconds of shrugging off the linesmen and elbowing, facewashing, kneeing Hartnell while he's on the ice. Compared to what, Hartnell pulling away from a linesman (while standing) for 4-5 seconds, attempting to facewash Letang. Your boy Kunitz was over the line, no excuses.

[terp]

Who started it really doesn't matter....even though I will say that Hartnell's slash was the first action in the whole deal that was worthy of a penalty and it was that action that I would like to think Kunitz was retaliating for. As for who started what...really not an issue here.

Every point you make about Kunitz's actions being unusual can also be said about Hartnell's - and I don't mean the slash. I mean the punches thrown at a player on the ice and Hartnell's own disregard for the officials attempts to keep him from getting at Letang. Hartnell was punching a played pinned down on the ice. Kunitz gave a lengthy face rub to a player pinned down on the ice. Which is worse? I'd call it even.

The minutes evened up so there really wasn't a break either way.

I call this progress. In a backhanded way, you are acknowledging that you think Kunitz was justified in ignoring the officials because Hartnell slashed Paul Martin. I think players will get a misconduct penalty 19 times out of 20 if they do what Kunitz did irrespective of the provocation, but I guess if someone wants to send a message they can take that risk and maybe sit for 10.

The stuff about Hartnell deserving a misconduct if Kunitz did might sound good to a casual hockey fan who's stricken with Sydney Crosby (not referring to you) but I don't think it's going be very compelling to anyone else. Kunitz and Hartnell were the last ones going at it and both linesmen were involved trying to separate the two. The members of the broadcast team were clearly not Flyers fans but even they said this was the signal to stop. As I said earlier, the officials nearly always hand out a misconduct for that without regard to how the altercation started. They have to because if they let it go, the scrums go on too long, viewers tune out and the league comes down on everyone.

[doom88]

@B21

The stuff about Hartnell deserving a misconduct if Kunitz did might sound good to a casual hockey fan who's stricken with Sydney Crosby (not referring to you) but I don't think it's going be very compelling to anyone else. Kunitz and Hartnell were the last ones going at it and both linesmen were involved trying to separate the two. The members of the broadcast team were clearly not Flyers fans but even they said this was the signal to stop. As I said earlier, the officials nearly always hand out a misconduct for that without regard to how the altercation started. They have to because if they let it go, the scrums go on too long, viewers tune out and the league comes down on everyone.

Maybe I wasn't very good at explaining what I meant, so I'll hijack terp's quote here.

I'm going to leave Cooke and Pronger to rest here, because I really don't think it's worth elaborating upon. I think I made a decent point that wasn't really addressed fairly - wanting Pronger on the roster for his talent, not necessarily the dirt. Being good wasn't a pass, it was justification for adding an elite world-class talented player.

[B21]

@xganarchy

<< face rub? He was ramming his padded elbow down on Hartnell's helmet-less head! And like i said in my other post, I'm still not 100% sold that Hartnell was "punching" a Pens player on the ice, it just looked like a giant pileup at that point IMO >>

Ramming? C'mon, X. Pushing...maybe. Looked like a pretty good faced rub to me. Looks like the elbow actually misses and then he gets the glove in there. Again - I am not absolving Kunitz. Just looking for Hartnell to get the same level of treatment. Both didn't immediately disengage when the refs were trying to get them to do just that and both gave another guy the business that was a bit over this line everyone is talking about.

So other than a video of Hartnell punching a guy he has down on the ice, what would convince you that Hartnell was punching a guy he had down on the ice? Sheesh.

<< Oh, and Kunitz was on top of Hartnell from :54 seconds to 1:25 or so...about 30 seconds of shrugging off the linesmen and elbowing, facewashing, kneeing Hartnell while he's on the ice. Compared to what, Hartnell pulling away from a linesman (while standing) for 4-5 seconds, attempting to facewash Letang. Your boy Kunitz was over the line, no excuses. >>

This kinda makes my point. If you have to drill down THIS much to decide who deserves "more" punishment (i.e. - who it took the refs longer to keep away/get off the other guy) then really...they both deserve the same number of minutes/discipline.

[B21]

@terp

<< I call this progress. In a backhanded way, you are acknowledging that you think Kunitz was justified in ignoring the officials because Hartnell slashed Paul Martin. I think players will get a misconduct penalty 19 times out of 20 if they do what Kunitz did irrespective of the provocation, but I guess if someone wants to send a message they can take that risk and maybe sit for 10. >>

No - I'd call that taking the point I am trying to make and twisting it. Kunitz was NOT justified in ignoring the officials because Hartnell slashed Martin. He WAS justified in going after Hartnell in the first place. I disagree that gets a misconduct 19 times out of 20. I do feel that Hartnell also ignored the officials attempts to keep him away from Letang. Same offense on only a slightly smaller scale. Like I told X, if you have to analyze the scrum in that much detail to determine who gets what, then they both really do deserve the same punishment which, in my opinion, should have been 2:00 each for roughing.

You fail to acknowledge the fact that Hartnell was also throwing punches at Pen while he had that Pen pinned down on the ice. It's in the video and is not really disputable. So tell me...what should be the punishment for that offense? Me, the stricken Crosby fan, is happy with whatever the minutes are given for Hartnell and Kunitz as long as they are even. I do not think either should have been given a misconduct.

<< The stuff about Hartnell deserving a misconduct if Kunitz did might sound good to a casual hockey fan who's stricken with Sydney Crosby (not referring to you) but I don't think it's going be very compelling to anyone else. Kunitz and Hartnell were the last ones going at it and both linesmen were involved trying to separate the two. The members of the broadcast team were clearly not Flyers fans but even they said this was the signal to stop. As I said earlier, the officials nearly always hand out a misconduct for that without regard to how the altercation started. They have to because if they let it go, the scrums go on too long, viewers tune out and the league comes down on everyone. >>

Again - I don't think either deserved a misconduct. But if you want to argue that for Kunitz then I want to see you argue the same for Hartnell for ALSO punching a guy while he's down and ALSO failing to follow the orders of the officials. It's not debatable that BOTH Hartnell and Kunitz were guilty of those offenses.

[B21]

@B21

Maybe I wasn't very good at explaining what I meant, so I'll hijack terp's quote here.

I'm going to leave Cooke and Pronger to rest here, because I really don't think it's worth elaborating upon. I think I made a decent point that wasn't really addressed fairly - wanting Pronger on the roster for his talent, not necessarily the dirt. Being good wasn't a pass, it was justification for adding an elite world-class talented player.

No problem. I guess you can "steal" the response below, too.

Also no problem putting Cooke and Pronger to bed. Points made.