Giroux suspended 1 game (Official)

[SpikeDDS]

It was "head contact" uncalled with an injured player practically seizing on ice. Sure he said it was a clean hit. No supplemental anything.

The injury only matters if the hit was not clean. The rule states that the head must be targeted AND (not OR) the principle point of contact. I'll give you that Voracek's head may have been the PPOC, but Kronwall's hit was a full-body check only with Voracek's head in the way.

Take a look at the video examples that the NHL sent at the start of the season showing clean hits, and you will see that they allow hits to the head so long as the contact accompanies a full-body check. Kronwall's hit on Voracek fits that description perfectly.

Yes, the result was devastating and could have been worse. If the hit was not a legal one, Voracek's response should have been weighed into Kronwall's discipline, but it WAS legal according to the rules established at the beginning of the season, and quite honestly, I want those hits to remain in the game, just like Voracek does.

I'm glad Voracek was back playing in a short period of time. Good to see. Hopefully, he'll keep his head up from now on, too. ;-)

[mojo1917]

@SpikeDDS

you have 7 more years to watch Kronwall, enjoy it but i fear the way he baits guys into that hit along the boards will catch up with him, he's a great skater so it may take a while but one day he's going to get "moored" or "boothed" because of that faint. live by the sword...

the call on Giroux head contact or whatever the hell could most definitely be applied to kronwall's hit on voracek, i guess that ref must have been using an old rule book...

[SpikeDDS]

@SpikeDDS

you have 7 more years to watch Kronwall, enjoy it but i fear the way he baits guys into that hit along the boards will catch up with him, he's a great skater so it may take a while but one day he's going to get "moored" or "boothed" because of that faint. live by the sword...

I agree with you. So long as the hit is clean, I won't have a problem with it. Nor will Kronwall, I don't think, once the dust has settled. Of course, I have a problem if a hit on him is dirty. But Kronner's a lot like Lidstrom that way. He's hard to hit. Only twice that I can think of has anyone ever given Lidstrom a really good hit. Kronner's not Lidstrom--who is?--but he's similar as far as being hittable, and if someone can catch him when he puts himself in a vulnerable position, he deserves to get hammered. He just doesn't do it often. He plays very smart hockey.

the call on Giroux head contact or whatever the hell could most definitely be applied to kronwall's hit on voracek, i guess that ref must have been using an old rule book...

Here's the video the NHL sent at the beginning of the season showing examples of legal hits that involve contact to the head. Note the REPEATED, CONSISTENT comments about these being full-body checks.

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/console?catid=60&id=123678&cmpid=embed-share-video

Granted, NONE of these hits were as impacting as Kronwall's hit on Voracek. But the principle is the same: Voracek's head was down and in the way, but Kronner didn't target the head per se, consistent with the examples. If Voracek's head wasn't in the way, it still would have been a HARD, full-body check. The fact that the head is in the way DOES NOT make the hit illegal. It's from the puck carrier's front. Elbows are down. Kronner doesn't leave his feet until AFTER contact is made. Kronner impacts Voracek's whole body, including the head, even though the head is hit first and very hard. It's textbook as far as hitting technique goes. To some degree, players must take responsibility for having their heads down when they have the puck, and that's why the NHL legitimizes these hits. Otherwise everyone could just skate with their heads down with no fear of being hit, and hockey as we know it goes away.

If a hit is a legal one, you can't use the results of the hit to make it an illegal one. If a hit is illegal, the damage done can and certainly should be considered when determining how much discipline to assess. Voracek, himself, understands that difference.

On G's hit, if the player's head WASN'T there, G hardly would have touched him. The problem was that the hit was pretty much ONLY to the head. That meets the targeted and PPOC criteria are both met, and it is therefore an illegal hit. I thought the 1-gamer was fair.

I DO agree wholeheartedly that the judgment this postseason was VERY inconsistent, and for that reason, you've got a right to complain. I share that feeling with you. If you're gonna call G on it, you've got to call Ovie on his too.

[doom88]

Zubrus had his head down too. G didn't leave his skates and is six inches shorter. How the **** else can a shoulder hit a head?

[mojo1917]

Believe me I understand. As a Pens fan I honestly thought we would handle your Flyers in a tough series.

see, i never thought that, i think the pens have a problem with having so much salary tied up with 4 guys. the 3 centermen are fantastic world class players, however after Neal ,and Dupis the forwards are mostly journeyman type hard working role players, the flyers had more skilled players who were able to "nut up" to meet the grit of the less skilled pens forwards and the talent prevailed.

it will be interesting to see what happens with the pens pay roll in the next 2 years i think one of the big 3 is going to have to go, and i don't think Staal should be the odd man out, could be that Crosby with his concussion history is the expendable one. and i'd have never thought that 2 years ago.

[SpikeDDS]

Zubrus had his head down too. G didn't leave his skates and is six inches shorter. How the **** else can a shoulder hit a head?

I'm assuming your comment was to me, @doom88. If it was not, sorry.

The problem with G's hit was that he pretty much ONLY hit the head. If Zubrus has the puck with his head down, and G instead hits the head AND a significant portion of Zubrus' body, that would be a legal check. The fact that he "clips" the head is where the targeted and PPOC criteria are met. If Zubrus' head wasn't on his body, G's hit would have been close to a miss.

I'd say that they are gonna call that every time, but they didn't on Ovie's head clip. THAT'S the problem. If you're gonna call it for one, call it for all. It seems this inconsistency has been and remains a problem in the NHL despite the changes this year. I'll say it's a little better this year, because at least you get an explanation on the ones where discipline is meted out. But I think they should ALSO publicly explain the hits that do NOT receive discipline, and detail the reasons why those hits are not deemed worthy of supplemental discipline. IIRC, that has only been done once this entire season, and I was under the impression that it was going to happen somewhat regularly. It has not happened.

And I'm not sure that replacing Shanahan would fix the problem. If Campbell is pulling his strings as many here think, if Shanny gets replaced, what's gonna keep Campbell from pulling the next guy's?

[Polaris922]

the flyers had more skilled players

I disagree there. The Pens had better stats during the regular season with Crosby missing the majority of it and Letang out for a considerable time as well. Better winning percentage .659 vs .628, better goals for 273 vs 260, better defense 221 goals against vs 232, the same power play 19.72% vs 19.70%, a better penalty kill 87.78% vs 81.82%, and slightly better goaltending 2.36 GAA and .913 save% vs 2.48 GAA and .909% for our starting goalies respectively. I honestly think the Pens have more talent on the ice as you forgot to mention Kunitz, and we had more twenty goal scorers than your boys with every single one of ours in the lineup getting more assists as well. A better plus/minus down the line too.

Having said all of that, it just seemed to me that your Flyers came into every game hungering for a win against the Pens until the last game of the season which was admittedly meaningless. THAT was my fear going into the playoffs. The Penguins have a more talented team up front and in the defensive corps in my eyes, not just in the stats, but with player vs. player comparisons. The biggest advantage your Flyers had was youth coming up and apparently wanting it more than some of our veterans. The Flyers' ability to get the Pens playing stupid in Game 2 is what really seemed to decide the series to me. The Pens stopped playing skilled hockey and turned into goon hockey.

That being said, your boys put it to them well in the series. If the pens had focused on their game style and Bylsma had done a better job of coaching to adjust our penalty kill it would have been us versus the Devils instead. Sadly for me, the Pens realized this when they were down 3-0 already and couldn't muster enough to run the table out. You have to admit... we had most of you guys worries after game 5. Congrats on the series, in all sincerity, I just don't see where a lot of Flyers fans are claiming to be the more talented team. If anything, the lineups are very evenly matched, and I give my Pens the edge.

Giroux is an exceptional hockey player, and I like him even though he's yours. Beyond him you have Hartnell (whom I think is more a byproduct of Giroux's talent much like Robbie Brown was of Lemieux's way back when), Briere, Voracek, Simmonds, and Read. You don't really have a game changing defenseman anywhere in your lineup. THAT might be something shopped for if they give up on Pronger, who in my opinion is well past his prime anyway. Then they could use that money for a new talent. And Bryzgalov has proven to be a very overpaid goaltender.

We have Crosby, Malkin, and Neal who are major talents up front. Kunitz, Dupuis, Staal, and yes even Matt Cooke (who played at the same level as Voracek with no power play time). Our edge on defense is Letang. Our defenses are similar talent wise except for him. Fleury didn't have a good playoff at all. But head to head I would take him over Bryzgalov any day of the week. He played more games this year than any other, and I'm wondering after watching his playoff performance if it was too much to ask of him.

Anyways, I am sure I'll get a lot of rebuttal from the die hard orange and black fans here, and that's fine. I think every team talks up their own players to appear to be a super lineup no matter where they are. And i think these two teams will be seeing a LOT of each other in years to come in the playoffs. Frankly, I love the rivalry, and I think the NHL rating it the 9th best rivalry in hockey was a sham! It deserves top 5 in my book!

[mojo1917]

I honestly think the Pens have more talent on the ice as you forgot to mention Kunitz,

i reckon we were looking at this through our homer glasses.

I won't admit to being worried about the Pens winning the series this year, game 5 was a toss up and my guys were healthy and playing well, we owned you and were going to get 1 more out of 3 chances. i was saying all the right things about the 4th win is the hardest and remember 2010 for the same reason no one talks to the pitcher throwing the no-no. good old fashioned superstition

I didn't forget about Kunitz, i don't think he's a talented player of likes that I mentioned. he's a hard worker and goes in the men only areas of the ice, but he's not dangling anyone and is not a creative offensive player, tyler kennedy has more talent than kunitz... you or i could score 20+ on Malkin's wing.

I was also basing my theory on the head to head match ups since 87's return to the line up, which coincided with Letang's since their return; the Pens had won only the last day of the season game vs the Flyers and in each game the team leaning forward and pressing the attack controlling the puck was not yours by the third period. i didn't see anything from those games to make me think the Pens had an extra gear , they were already there because of the rivalry.

No argument about needing a true #1 defensman, when healthy we have 2 #2's and 2#3's, having a guy like 58 would be nice, as would not paying for bryzgalov until 2024 or whatever...i can't even count how long he's under contract for.

your team was taylor made for my team this year, it will be interesting to see how the tide turns in the years to come though, i still think having all that money tied up with staal, crosby malkin and fluery makes it hard to attract talented players who are looking to win and make some dough.

Edited May 11, 2012 by mojo1917

[Polaris922]

I didn't forget about Kunitz... tyler kennedy has more talent than kunitz...

I agree that Kennedy is a more creative player and skater, but something is missing in his finishing. Kunitz is a hard nosed go to the net guy like you said, but my use of him was equal to your use of Simmonds. I don't see Simmonds as anything special either, but a similar player who scores because he gets his nose bloodied.

I agree strongly that your boys outplayed mine for two of the games in the series hands down. I felt the Pens outplayed yours for two. The first two games it seemed to be more the Pens breaking open then laying off the gas and your boys having the never say die and wanting it more.

Sadly we both get to watch from the sidelines. What I felt were the best two teams going into the playoffs have let us both down. But that's why they play again next year!